Snow Covered Soft Field Landing on Check Ride

madriverman

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madriverman
Hi Guys!

Passed my PPL Check Ride this past weekend! Whew. We only have one examiner around here so we have lots of beta on his profile. Strangley...the Check Ride was not like any profile I had heard of from 3 CFIs and two students who had taken a ride with this Examiner. Here's a little recap:

After the oral, we walked to the airplane (C182L). I had flown that morning so he told me that I didn’t need to preflight. He was cold and wanted to get the show on the road.

I used the checklist to start the engine…I began to brief him. He told me he did not need a passenger briefing and knew how to work the doors and the seat belt. He urged me to get going.

I made my call to Unicom. I taxied to 31 and did a run up. Made sure I checked my checklist to ensure I did not miss a thing. I asked him if he’d like to see a soft field take off because I know he is hot on them and he said yes. While working through the run up and doing final checks, he nonchalantly mentioned that there was snow past the threshold. I lower 20 degree flaps and talk through the procedure for a SF t/o, make my departing call and roll past the threshold, forgetting that in his incessant talking (he does this to throw you off your game), that he mentioned the snow. As I roll past the threshold, he says, “Well you just buried your nose wheel in all that snow. Better get out and push.” I say “really?” He says, “No, but soft fields don’t begin on the runway—this is real life, not practice life.” Damn good advice.

We depart. He tells me to climb to 7500 feet. While doing so he has me put on the foggles. Once foggles were on, he has me vector towards a tiny private airpark about 20 miles north of my airport. He’s talking the whole time. Asking questions about family, flying, work…just trying to throw me off.

Under the hood he has me track toward the field, do slow flight above the stall horn speed (50 mph, full flaps)…no turns, no descents or anything…just fly in slow flight. We do 2 recoveries from unusual attitudes under the hood. Both were nose high. Then the hood comes off. He’s still talking.

Still in slow flight, he asks me to go full power, full flaps and stall the airplane. I had never done a full flap, full power stall—I tell him this. He asks, “Well, what are you going to do if you stall on a go around?” I say, good point. We do one…lots of left yaw. Lots. I ask to do one more. Tons of right foot and nail it.

We then head to this tiny field…he’s still talking the whole time. I did not have the airport info handy for what I thought was a pretty random request…he shows me how to find it on the Garmin 430…I make my call to traffic. He tells me I talk to much on the radio. I say I am announcing my position in case of other traffic. He says I don’t have to. I slow up the airplane to give me more time. He asks why?

He tells me to land. It’s fully snow covered. Looks like it hadnt been used since the snow started falling months ago. He tells me to land on RWY 04—I ask if I can do right traffic due to the 500' hills surrounding the strip. He says, no—the standard is left traffic. I begin to **** my pants. Fully snow covered, terrain all around, I do my prelanding check (GUMP), cross midfield and turn downwind, with 20 degree flaps, I notice I am high and add full flaps…and line up on final. Nervous of the tiny, snow covered runway, with no obvious centerline, and terrain all around, I begin to sweat. I keep my speed just under 80, still high, he asks me to do a slip. More sweat. I get down quick, bleed my speed, keep the nose up, kick the rudder, and bam—greased it. He says, “good job! Let’s do another but from the other direction.” We taxi to the end of 04, turn around, he cautions me not to stop because that’s an immediate fail…we depart on 22 and he mentions how rare it is to do an actual soft field on a check ride (lucky me). We climb 500, left turn, downwind, base…making calls the whole time, he tells me to stop making calls and fly the airplane. High again, we slip again…same deal, just landing the other way this time—he has me do a touch and go, which on a very short runway seems a bit scary. He’s still talking.

We then proceed to 6700 feet, make a right turn and he asks me to do some S turns over the highway. Done. He has me do turns about a point. Done. He directs me back to my origin airport and after 45 seconds pulls the engine. “Where you going to land?” I get to 80mph and begin to pick my field. I find a nice one. Really nice. And he says, “Why the hell would you land in a field and flip me upside down when you can land at the airport below us.” We were right over the soft field!!! But it wasn’t in front of me—and the pressure of the check ride…didn’t even occur to me where I was!!! So, we turn left, super high for Rwy 22, slip down into…100 feet above the ground he says, “Deer in the runway!” I push carb heat in and then power for the go around…he screams, “FAIL! That’s a FAIL!!!!” Fully ****ting my pants now, I ask, “What’s a fail?” He says on a go around, NEVER put carb heat to cold before power. That can freeze up the engine—he’s seen it happen. Always power first on a go around. Always. I tell him I will never, ever, ever do it again—he says, “Good.” Still talking.

We head towards Montrose. I level off at 7000 feet and we do steep turns. I do some clearing turns, pick a point, line up my DG bug, make sure I am trimmed and enter my steep turn to the right. At 30 degrees add power…I watch the dot on my attitude indicator, watch airspeed, watch, heading, watch outside, watch altitude…roll into one to the left, same, same…DONE. The whole time, have I mentioned, that he’s talking?

We head back to MTJ. Straight in for 13. I announce my position. He reminds me again that I don’t have to in Class E. He says this will be a normal landing. I think, “finally.”

Days after, my PTSD is subsiding and have had the family out for a few flights. Loving it.
 
Congratulations, Captain, and welcome. Very nice first post.
 
I push carb heat in and then power for the go around…he screams, “FAIL! That’s a FAIL!!!!” Fully ****ting my pants now, I ask, “What’s a fail?” He says on a go around, NEVER put carb heat to cold before power. That can freeze up the engine—he’s seen it happen. Always power first on a go around. Always. I tell him I will never, ever, ever do it again—he says, “Good.” Still talking.
Interesting to hear that from a DPE since so many CFIs adamantly teach carb heat cold before adding power.

Congrats on the checkride!
 
Right? My CFI said it was BS...and I shot a text to the DPE...he said carb heat to cold before power ONLY in the instance of a go around. He said he has seen a few instances where the engine quit in a similar situation.
 
I would have politely said 'no talking under 1000 feet AGL, I keep a sterile cockpit'. lol, congrats, and he's right on the carb heat but it's quite rare. The designers of the carb have to prove it can go from full hot to full cold with no loss of power. But - the atomization changes dramatically and can stuff some clumpy fuel into the intake depending on where the mixture is set. Given your altitude, a rich mixture, plus full throttle plus cold intake air could possibly make it die or sputter. Rare, but possible.
 
Right? My CFI said it was BS...and I shot a text to the DPE...he said carb heat to cold before power ONLY in the instance of a go around. He said he has seen a few instances where the engine quit in a similar situation.
Did he say what kind of engines he has seen it on?

Personally, I prefer to follow the DPE's advice and apply power first and then push the carb heat in.....but that is based on my personal experience and talking to other pilots operating the same engine. I would add that the only carburated engine I fly behind these days is a Continental W670 (radial) which is also the only engine I have flown where I have experienced carb ice.
 
He told me I could tell him to **** up--but he guaranteed that I would have passengers who were much more nervous that he, and much more chatty. I declined the offer--mostly for the challenge of it all :)

Still, none of you guys have commented on the snow covered soft fields...those were highly unexpected, completely nerve shattering. I suppose I could have declined but I was in the mood to get this over with and pass!
 
Still, none of you guys have commented on the snow covered soft fields...those were highly unexpected, completely nerve shattering. I suppose I could have declined but I was in the mood to get this over with and pass!
I've got to rely on your experience there - I've never had the occasion to land on an unplowed snow covered runway!
 
Whoa... your checkride sounded a bit nerve wracking. I think I would've asked him to shut his trap during the t/o and landings. Congrats, though!
 
Most people would go flying after passing a checkride. After that, I would go drinking.
 
I'm pretty sure on a go around I learned, and taught, pretty much "balls to the wall".

IOW, EVERYTHING forward as close to simultaneously as possible.

Throttle
Carb Heat
Mixture
Prop (if available)

I think the idea was with carb heat on you had less than full power which could conceivably make the difference between clearing trees or not.

Sounds like a petty thing to threaten a FAIL over.
 
I'm pretty sure on a go around I learned, and taught, pretty much "balls to the wall".

IOW, EVERYTHING forward as close to simultaneously as possible.

Throttle
Carb Heat
Mixture
Prop (if available)

I think the idea was with carb heat on you had less than full power which could conceivably make the difference between clearing trees or not.

Sounds like a petty thing to threaten a FAIL over.

Generally true, but he's in CO, it's winter. Gotta deal with the local conditions. I'd be careful with that mixture, and maybe the carb heat.
 
Generally true, but he's in CO, it's winter. Gotta deal with the local conditions. I'd be careful with that mixture, and maybe the carb heat.
True. You shouldn't be screwing with the mixture on the go. Mixture should be part of the before landing checklist so you aren't messing with it on the go.
 
I think it's cool he included some local situation to the ride. If you're in CO and you're going to fly in winter get used to snow and know what to do. I hope someone had prior permission to land on the private field, unless it was marked for public use.
 
Yup, mixture was set during pre landing check and prop was in on final. This airport was at 5000 feet...it's no Telluride or Leadville, which IMO are freakin' easy since they plow those and they are 100 feet wide. This strip had the profile of a sidewalk.

And he OWNS the airfield we landed on, so he had permission :yes:
 
Don't think I would have landed on the snow-covered runway without knowing conditions beforehand. I know of one person who ended up flipping a plane when he landed on a strip that seemed to have "just an inch or two" of snow, but in reality was deeper.

Also, my next-to-last flight review, the CFI told me I should put in carb heat on short final so I'd have immediate full power for a go-around. :dunno: In any case, I'm pretty sure you're not going to get an iced up carb in the 2 seconds it takes to get the throttle forward.
 
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Wow, congratulations on passing what sounds like a pretty tough checkride!

The power vs. carb heat on a go around is an interesting thing. I always try to do both simultaneously, but if I can't I tend to go with power first (that gets me the most power earliest) and then follow up with the carb heat. I hadn't considered that there could be engine trouble by doing it the other way, though.
 
Carb heat off on short final FTW.

Chances of carb ice on short final are near zero, you're not sucking dirty air down low and have one less thing to worry about on a go around.
 
Congrats!

Damn my checkride seems like a cakewalk compared to that! wow.

-Brian
 
Congrats and nice writeup! And, BTW, Welcome to POA and welcome to the Colorado POA community!
 
Carb ice is not an issue. Fuel atomization is where things get interesting.

Marvel carbs use a primitive emulsion tube in most carbs, and without much air entrained in the main jet, dumping raw fuel into a cold chamber doesn't bode well for the mixture. Again - it's rare but it happens. If you are old enough to remember the choke on a carbed car in cold climates this is a similar mode. It's also why Busch(savvy aviator) recommends a little carb heat when going LOP on a carbed engine. It promotes fuel atomization with a bit more energy in the fuel molecules.
 
Great job on a challenging checkride. Congratulations!
 
Wow...sounds like he took the "reasonable distractions" to the limit!...but that is what makes a good pilot. Nice work.
 
Dang, that sure sounds like a heck of a checkride. You got lucky you had an actual soft field and not simulated. Nervous? Why? You trained for this! :)
And just like my checkride, you learned something new.

Congratulations and welcome to the elite club.
 
Don't think I would have landed on the snow-covered runway without knowing conditions beforehand. I know of one person who ended up flipping a plane when he landed on a strip that seemed to have "just an inch or two" of snow, but in reality was deeper.
+1. In fact, if it had been my checkride and the DPE had pulled something like that, I hope I would have had the gumption to discontinue.

If it had been in my own plane, I'm certain I would have.

But in this case, all's well that ends well.

To the OP: congrats on the pass and welcome to POA!
 
Carb ice is not an issue. Fuel atomization is where things get interesting.

Marvel carbs use a primitive emulsion tube in most carbs, and without much air entrained in the main jet, dumping raw fuel into a cold chamber doesn't bode well for the mixture. Again - it's rare but it happens. If you are old enough to remember the choke on a carbed car in cold climates this is a similar mode. It's also why Busch(savvy aviator) recommends a little carb heat when going LOP on a carbed engine. It promotes fuel atomization with a bit more energy in the fuel molecules.

Took off in a 182Q once at -20F. It got to >-30 climbing over the Divide. Engine started cutting out. I headed toward Kremmling and tried mixture and then carb heat. Engine came back. Later an Alaska friend told me gas didn't vaporize well at those temp.
 
Congratulations. What was the name of the private strip? I've flown around that area some.
 
D17 (Westwinds). It parallels Hwy 50--small strip with about 5 hangers/houses on it.
 
D17 (Westwinds). It parallels Hwy 50--small strip with about 5 hangers/houses on it.

I've flown to Blake and driven past Westwinds. Not one I would think of for a check ride. Good Job.
 
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Don't think I would have landed on the snow-covered runway without knowing conditions beforehand. I know of one person who ended up flipping a plane when he landed on a strip that seemed to have "just an inch or two" of snow, but in reality was deeper.
OP said in post #18 that the DPE "owned" the airfield so I suppose that was as good as calling ahead to check on conditions? I'm curious madriverman, did you know then that it was the examiners own field? And did you express your concern about the depth of the snow, and did he say it was OK?
 
HA! We land at Blake pretty regularly. Nice rollers off of 03 and decent downdrafts off of 21. Good power-on-final practice! But Westwinds, well...

There's another private dirt strip just west of Delta. Landed there as well...super fun.
 
At the time, I did not now it was his field...and since it's Delta, CO the snow couldn't be more than 6-8 inches on pavement (basically high desert)...but I did express my concern by saying, "REALLY? With all that snow on it????" And he replied, "It's rare we get to do an actual soft field on a check ride..." Cue my uncomfortable laughter...and his devious smile.
 
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