Smart thinkin. "Full nose up trim... Release the pressure to flare"

[SixPapaCharlie]

Digging through YT emergency videos and stumbled across this one.
This CFI did a little outside the box thinking near the end.

Maybe put this trick in your skill bag

TL;DR version: Elevator is jammed, scroll to 10:00

 

[whereisrandall]

I learned to do all landings that way. 3 rolls, not full. But is a neat thing to see in this vid.

 

[BillTIZ]

A little research and you may find that most small GA will be very close to hands off best glide speed with zero power and full nose up trim. Balances out somewhere between Vx and Vy. Which is very close to recommended approach at 1.2 to 1.3 X Vso. Better best glide speed control while you deal with the rest of the emergency.

 

[luvflyin]

A little research and you may find that most small GA will be very close to hands off best glide speed with zero power and full nose up trim. Balances out somewhere between Vx and Vy. Which is very close to recommended approach at 1.2 to 1.3 X Vso. Better best glide speed control while you deal with the rest of the emergency.

A CFI told me about that a while back when doing an engine out drill. He also told me about trimming to hold forward pressure on final and then releasing forward pressure to flare. It was in a C182. The have a reputation for being a bit nose heavy during landing. I tried it. It worked but felt funny. It was a full stop. I'd want to do a few go arounds before I decided to make that my routine trim setting on final.

 

[Acrodustertoo]

That video was posted not to long ago I do believe. Well handled by the instructor. He kept calm which led to the student remaining calm during the event.

 

[flyingron]

A CFI told me about that a while back when doing an engine out drill. He also told me about trimming to hold forward pressure on final and then releasing forward pressure to flare. It was in a C182. The have a reputation for being a bit nose heavy during landing. I tried it. It worked but felt funny. It was a full stop. I'd want to do a few go arounds before I decided to make that my routine trim setting on final.

This, in fact, is exactly how my wife has to fly the 182. It is far easier for her to push forward on the yoke on approach than to manage to pull it back in the flare. She trims it way nose up on final.

 

[weilke]

This, in fact, is exactly how my wife has to fly the 182. It is far easier for her to push forward on the yoke on approach than to manage to pull it back in the flare. She trims it way nose up on final.

Has she ever tried to put in go-around power with the trim rolled all the way back?

 

[steingar]

I have the trim all the way to the stops for all my Mooney landings. Part of my reticence of doing touch and goes is what happens when I put in full power with all that nose up trim. I've done it at altitude and it is controllable, but only just so.

 

[jason]

I've seen that video. I thought he did a great job.

I've heard a number of people do this in "nose heavy" airplanes. Enter and hold the flare by continued application of nose up trim...it's always seemed like one of those things that would work like a charm until you saw a deer on the runway and applied full power...and had to struggle like hell to get the trim back down before the airplane stalled.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Has she ever tried to put in go-around power with the trim rolled all the way back?

That right there. Some airplanes would kill you if you had to suddenly abort and the trim was so far nose-up. Like the 180/185 with the stab trim; very powerful.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

I just dont understand why no seems to grasp that you don't have apply full power immediately, especially if doing so will put you into an unusual attitude. Apply enough power to keep yourself flying, retrim, and then apply the rest of the power.

It's not an emergency maneuver.

 

[weilke]

I just dont understand why no seems to grasp that you don't have apply full power immediately,

That's why I said 'go around power'. If a student taxis into the runway while you are on a 500yrd final it is arguably an emergency. If you dont have the strength to flare a 182, you may not have the strength to control the pitch-up that happens when you have to add power unexpectedly.

 

[MauleSkinner]

That's why the AFH discusses Trim Stalls, I guess.

 

[BillTIZ]

I just dont understand why no seems to grasp that you don't have apply full power immediately, especially if doing so will put you into an unusual attitude. Apply enough power to keep yourself flying, retrim, and then apply the rest of the power.

It's not an emergency maneuver.

I was thinking the same thing. Don't need full power to stop the descent, level off, get the trim moving in the right direction, then add the climb power.

I did it that way on a recent flight review and was critiqued by the instructor. This was a "go around" from a simulated engine out descent. I asked if the descent was stopped, airspeed maintained and control maintained until I got the climb power established. Well, yes. Then we (I) discussed with him the tendency of Cessna's to pitch up with full flap and nose up trim and full power, plus the easy application of power so as not to cause the engine to stumble from being cooled off with a vigorous power application. He agreed.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I was thinking the same thing. Don't need full power to stop the descent, level off, get the trim moving in the right direction, then add the climb power.

Some situations might demand instant full power. You're about to touch down and someone taxis onto the runway at some point before which you won't be able to stop. Just adding enough to level off will take you to the scene of the collision. Of course, you might have room to turn away some.

 

[James331]

Good video, personally I'd have taken that plane into Paine well before Harvey, Harvey isn't really a tuff strip, but with control issues I'll take PAE every day of the week first. Still job well done by the CFI.

Has she ever tried to put in go-around power with the trim rolled all the way back?

One of my last jobs, well before my time there was a small female pilot, doing a takeoff in a U206, still trimmed for landing, she didn't have the upper body strength to overcome the pre set trim, plus with a heavy load, stall and crash a few fatals.

I've done a go around last minute in a 208B, it'll give you a workout!

 

[Tom-D]

Isn't power trim a great thing?

 

[steingar]

I just dont understand why no seems to grasp that you don't have apply full power immediately, especially if doing so will put you into an unusual attitude. Apply enough power to keep yourself flying, retrim, and then apply the rest of the power.

It's not an emergency maneuver.

If I really do need to do a go-around on short final or after touchdown it will indeed be a bloody emergency. I'm certainly not going to pull a stunt like that for kicks.

 

[Caramon13]

I just dont understand why no seems to grasp that you don't have apply full power immediately, especially if doing so will put you into an unusual attitude. Apply enough power to keep yourself flying, retrim, and then apply the rest of the power.

It's not an emergency maneuver.

If adding full power puts you into an unusual attitude, you have bigger problems. From the FAA:

Power is the pilot’s first concern. The instant the pilot decides to go around, full or maximum allowable takeoff power must be applied smoothly and without hesitation, and held until flying speed and controllability are restored. Applying only partial power in a go-around is never appropriate.

 

[T-41C]

Maybe I am totally off-the-mark here but I do not quite understand the logic of applying nose-up trim in this situation (the emergency in the video) - other than for convienience.

If the elevator is stuck in such way that it cannot be pulled up past a certain point (less than what you would pull in a typical landing), wouldn't you actually want to use nose-down trim to get the max. available nose-up authority (at the expense of higher control forces)?

Of course, with nose-down-trim, I also see a potentially higher risk in case of an escalation of the control failure like a cable break so it should probably only be used when landing is assured and you are only a few feet above the runway.

 

[PNWGuy]

This is the airport I trained at.

Never flew any of their 152s. I Went up once with the instructor in the video when mine was unavailable.

 

[BillTIZ]

If adding full power puts you into an unusual attitude, you have bigger problems. From the FAA:

Power is the pilot’s first concern. The instant the pilot decides to go around, full or maximum allowable takeoff power must be applied smoothly and without hesitation, and held until flying speed and controllability are restored. Applying only partial power in a go-around is never appropriate.

"Held until Flying speed and controllability are restored."

Interesting, I was never without flying speed or out of control. So I guess that means the appropriate power was used at the appropriate time.

 

[kgruber]

They should have landed at 5 miles away Paine Field, where there are giant runways and emergency services.

Luck prevailed.

 

[midwestpa24]

I use some nose up trim in the Comanche to help in the flare, but not full and not enough that I can't overcome it easily on a full power go around.

 

[luvflyin]

Maybe I am totally off-the-mark here but I do not quite understand the logic of applying nose-up trim in this situation (the emergency in the video) - other than for convienience.

If the elevator is stuck in such way that it cannot be pulled up past a certain point (less than what you would pull in a typical landing), wouldn't you actually want to use nose-down trim to get the max. available nose-up authority (at the expense of higher control forces)?

Of course, with nose-down-trim, I also see a potentially higher risk in case of an escalation of the control failure like a cable break so it should probably only be used when landing is assured and you are only a few feet above the runway.

In this case it looks like applying the full nose up trim is what might have "unjammed" the elevator. After that he said it was back to normal. The big question in a "the elevator seems to be stuck" situation is, what's really stuck. The elevator itself, the yoke(stick), or something in between. If the yokstik(new word?) only goes so far, does that necessarily mean that's as far as the elevator is going to go. If the elevator can still move beyond the yokstik limit, then normal trim movements will be effective. If the elevator itself is jammed, then opposite trim would have the effect of the trim tab acting like a mini elevator. How much I would want "play" with things up at altitude trying to find out, I don't know. Hope I never have to find out. He seemed pretty sure that adding nose up trim was the solution and he was right. Did he "know" something, or maybe a little luck

 

[luvflyin]

They should have landed at 5 miles away Paine Field, where there are giant runways and emergency services.

Luck prevailed.

Yeah. I thought passing up Paine was not the best idea also.

 

[Caramon13]

I was thinking the same thing. Don't need full power to stop the descent, level off, get the trim moving in the right direction, then add the climb power.

I did it that way on a recent flight review and was critiqued by the instructor. This was a "go around" from a simulated engine out descent. I asked if the descent was stopped, airspeed maintained and control maintained until I got the climb power established. Well, yes. Then we (I) discussed with him the tendency of Cessna's to pitch up with full flap and nose up trim and full power, plus the easy application of power so as not to cause the engine to stumble from being cooled off with a vigorous power application. He agreed.

"Held until Flying speed and controllability are restored."

Interesting, I was never without flying speed or out of control. So I guess that means the appropriate power was used at the appropriate time.

Bill, the FAA thing I quoted said that full or maximum allowable takeoff power must be applied smoothly and without hesitation. I don't think the FAA meant to imply you slam the throttle to full in 1 second since (as you mentioned above) that could cause more problems and in some cases make it worse.

I was merely suggesting that the technique @Cpt_Kirk mentioned about applying partial power to arrest the descent, stopping, trimming, then applying more power was not a great idea. It should be a single smooth motion apply power to stop descent and continue to apply power smoothly to get the climb going. The goal of a go-around is to..GO around. Not to level off at 300 feet and fly down the runway while you figure things out. You aren't doing an approach to an MDA or DA..you are abandoning the approach for whatever reason.

If there's a deer on the runway, what possible benefit could ONLY arresting the descent be for you? You need to GAIN altitude to move away from the object as quickly as possible. Anything short of full power ain't gonna do that in most cases.

 

[exncsurfer]

Maybe I am totally off-the-mark here but I do not quite understand the logic of applying nose-up trim in this situation (the emergency in the video) - other than for convienience.

If the elevator is stuck in such way that it cannot be pulled up past a certain point (less than what you would pull in a typical landing), wouldn't you actually want to use nose-down trim to get the max. available nose-up authority (at the expense of higher control forces)?

Of course, with nose-down-trim, I also see a potentially higher risk in case of an escalation of the control failure like a cable break so it should probably only be used when landing is assured and you are only a few feet above the runway.

Yea, he couldn't pull past a certain point, so, adding too much nose up, he could push to hold the nose down and have some play to release forward pressure to flare, then it broke free right before.

Anyone else think the guy coming in #2 was out of line? I thought he should've gave them more space and stayed off the radio to reduce his distracting position reports. #1 is short final trying to land with a stuck elevator and guy #2 is chattering turning final...

 

[Caramon13]

Anyone else think the guy coming in #2 was out of line? I thought he should've gave them more space and stayed off the radio to reduce his distracting position reports. #1 is short final trying to land with a stuck elevator and guy #2 is chattering turning final...

I think there's a whole other thread on that topic. But yeah I agree on the position reports thing. Was doing pattern work a couple nights ago and the guy was calling upwind, crosswind, downwind, base and final. Really?

 

[exncsurfer]

I didn't have a problem with his position reports in general, I just thought he should have given them more room and not tailgated the impaired guy in, and kept the radio clear during the most critical time.

 

[kgruber]

The instructor is an idiot. Not only did he put his student, himself and the airplane in jeopardy by not landing at KPAE, he has his headset on backwards.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Bill, the FAA thing I quoted said that full or maximum allowable takeoff power must be applied smoothly and without hesitation. I don't think the FAA meant to imply you slam the throttle to full in 1 second since (as you mentioned above) that could cause more problems and in some cases make it worse.

I was merely suggesting that the technique @Cpt_Kirk mentioned about applying partial power to arrest the descent, stopping, trimming, then applying more power was not a great idea. It should be a single smooth motion apply power to stop descent and continue to apply power smoothly to get the climb going. The goal of a go-around is to..GO around. Not to level off at 300 feet and fly down the runway while you figure things out. You aren't doing an approach to an MDA or DA..you are abandoning the approach for whatever reason.

If there's a deer on the runway, what possible benefit could ONLY arresting the descent be for you? You need to GAIN altitude to move away from the object as quickly as possible. Anything short of full power ain't gonna do that in most cases.

You're taking my suggestion way outside of its intention.

If an immediate application of full power will put you into an unusual attitude, apply partial power, roll the trim wheel forward a couple of times, and then continue applying the rest of the power. This should be happening fairly quickly. If you have an electric trim setup, I'd advocate simultaneously applying nose down trim and slowly applying full power.

I don't advocate cruising along at 300' AGL. Although at the end of the day, if you avoid a collision using your preferred method, everything worked out just fine.

 

[Caramon13]

You're taking my suggestion way outside of its intention.

If an immediate application of full power will put you into an unusual attitude, apply partial power, roll the trim wheel forward a couple of times, and then continue applying the rest of the power. This should be happening fairly quickly. If you have an electric trim setup, I'd advocate simultaneously applying nose down trim and slowly applying full power.

I don't advocate cruising along at 300' AGL. Although at the end of the day, if you avoid a collision using your preferred method, everything worked out just fine.

Gotcha, well when you put it that way it makes more sense!

 

[BillTIZ]

You're taking my suggestion way outside of its intention.
.......
I don't advocate cruising along at 300' AGL. Although at the end of the day, if you avoid a collision using your preferred method, everything worked out just fine.

Neither did I.

Push some power, reset trim, push more power. Took an extra what... 5 seconds or less to move the trim before applying full power? A lot better than fighting the pitch up with one hand on the stick and one on the throttle and no free hand for the trim. And no real risk of losing flying speed and unusual attitude recovery with a miss trimmed airplane, stiff arming it while reaching for the trim wheel.

 

[red4golf]

Good video, personally I'd have taken that plane into Paine well before Harvey, Harvey isn't really a tuff strip, but with control issues I'll take PAE every day of the week first. Still job well done by the CFI.

I was thinking the same thing. Harvey is a good field but if I think that I might ball it up.... I'm going where the help is and PAE has everything you could ever need.