Small airports struggling, why not more hangars?

Cluemeister

Cluemeister

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Cluemeister
We read the stories about airports struggling financially, and I believe they are.

But at the same time we see long waiting lists (measured in years) to get hangar space. Why not build more hangars and add rental revenue, which will also generate additional revenue associated with all the new aircraft, fuel etc.

It would seem like straightforward math. Am I missing something?
 
I would guess that long wait lists are not common at fields that are on the brink of financial failure.

It's real estate, so it's all about location.
 
A lot of airport boards are made up of non-pilots who don't understand anything about aviation would be my first guess, and they don't see how the long term benefits will justify the initial expense. They won't go to the city/county with a strong enugh argument so money gets spent on parks, etc., that all people can enjoy instead of just a few pilots. Don't you know we are all rich and should pay for our own hangars? My friend is an airport manager in PA. Last year he started a program that if you flew 5 hours a month, he took $50 off your hangar rental, and he reduced the price of fuel. He made the city a lot of money on fuel sales. And when I visited him last year, they had plenty of open hangar space.
 
Because the idiots that hold the money for such things only have a monthly budget, and you can't build a hangar with a monthly budget even though it will make that money back quickly. Short sightedness. See that all the time in our sector too. "Spend x to save 20x for the year." "But my monthly budget is only x/4, and management won't approve a bump."
 
Many airports could increase the number of actively flying planes if they evicted all the people who use hangars as cheap subsidized storage space or just hold a hangar 'because the list is so long' while they dont actually own a plane.

And yes, it is aggravating if you can't find a hangar yet the airports are ghost towns with few planes ever moving. When you do see a hangar door open, you are looking at the back of an RV or stacks of boxes (maybe a a raggedy champ in between that hasn't flown in 10 years).

Some airport owners are just fine with that. They are happy running a mini-storage with a runway. They know that the GA business is fickle and that aircraft owners come and go, so they value the stable rental stream from the non-avition tenants.

Building hangars is not that easy:

- if the airport wants to do it, they have to put together funding from state/fed/local sources. It is a tedious process and unless there is a manager versed in the paper shuffling, it wont happen, even if money is available.
- there is lots of planning involved. The land has to be in the airport master plan, someone has to pay for building the ramp/taxiways etc. With something that involves lots of pavement, there is considerable site cost for stormwater management, silt control etc.
- if a private party wants to build rental or condo hangars, they need to secure a land lease from the airport. Some airports have really strange ideas on how to handle those leases. The terms are written by city or county lawyers who can't add and dont understand what it takes for a bank to loan money on a project. This results in lease terms that are at times utterly bizarre and a strong disincentive to anyone investing money on an airport.
- general aviation is in decline. It's like investing in a coalmine. For someone to tie up their money for 20 years, it is just not a great venue.
 
Many airports could increase the number of actively flying planes if they evicted all the people who use hangars as cheap subsidized storage space or just hold a hangar 'because the list is so long' while they don't actually own a plane.

Yep
 
Some popular marinas dont allow people to hog coveted slips if they don't have a boat in the water by May 1st. You also can't have a 23ft boat in a slip built for a 35fter etc. They want to sell fuel and marine services, an empty slip is losing them money, even if the rent check clears every month.
 
Old Fart said:
Many airports could increase the number of actively flying planes if they evicted all the people who use hangars as cheap subsidized storage space or just hold a hangar 'because the list is so long' while they don't actually own a plane.

Yep
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Our airport has a waiting list, and activity is picking up, so more available hangars would be a boon. However, too many occupied hangars hold planes that either never see the light of day or are broken down projects that never get touched. Our airport manager has researched adopting "use it or lose it" lease language, but he's beholden to the county, and the county barely gives two ****z about the airport.
 
Hard to make money building and renting out hangars. The airport retains ownership of the land, the hangar builder gets a 20 year lease on a building that will be worth zero in 20 years. Developer can make more money building warehouses, or office parks. At the end of 20 years with those, the buildings may be worth zero, but he will own the land which will have gone up in value.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Hard to make money building and renting out hangars. The airport retains ownership of the land, the hangar builder gets a 20 year lease on a building that will be worth zero in 20 years. Developer can make more money building warehouses, or office parks. At the end of 20 years with those, the buildings may be worth zero, but he will own the land which will have gone up in value.
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You can absolutely make money if you do it right.
 
When towns do build hangars, they're often like mine. They're nice and sealed well, with a bi-folding door that opens upward. Most pilots would settle for a lot less!

Since we recently got funding from the State of Texas, they have the numbers posted on the board. $666,666 for the State, $66,666 for the City. Total $733K for 12 hangars!! At the average rental rate we pay of $279 x 12 hangars x 12 months = $40K per year. That's 18 years to pay it off. Of course the City doesn't have to pay all of it, just the $66K, but we've been told the State will not fund anymore hangars anywhere for now. If a City had to fund the whole amount, there is no way it would happen for most small towns.

With the $66K the City has to pay, I was very disappointed they didn't try to get at least 24 hangars. They would have paid them off in 3 years, then it's mostly profit.
 
I know that they are not hangers, but at my home airport about 50% of the planes in the tie down area never seem to move. The planes look half abandoned and sad. The hanger space is very limited, and there is a waiting list, but I rarely see activity around the hangers. One guy has a plane tied down right next to the self fueling area, and the joke is he is waiting for prop wash to kick up a stone, or somebody to screw up and hit his plane so he can collect the insurance.

There is an open piece of paved property on the airport (it is part of the land grant), that could easily be turned into more hanger space, but I doubt the current owner has any desire to expand. Granted that area was declared a EPA clean up site, because that is where the crop dusters used to fly out of when the airport was new and the area was farms. But they are almost done, and now it will just be open land.

Our field's saving grace is that the shop and flight school are very active, and very busy. I have talked to the owner of the maintenance shop, and he claims to account for about 80% of the activity at the airport (between school and shop), and most of the revenue. And being there very often, I have no reason to doubt him. His shop hanger is always full (will hold between 6 to 10 planes), with at least 5 or more waiting outside. He actually really wants to take over the entire airport, but the current owner will not sell it, even though he has already closed the golf course that shares the same property.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Hard to make money building and renting out hangars. The airport retains ownership of the land, the hangar builder gets a 20 year lease on a building that will be worth zero in 20 years. Developer can make more money building warehouses, or office parks. At the end of 20 years with those, the buildings may be worth zero, but he will own the land which will have gone up in value.
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Those are the cooky ground-lease terms I mentioned. I could live with 20/10/10 with guaranteed renewals and a formula for the escalation (a commercial real estate price index, survey of other airports). The hangar we are in is coming up on 30 years and the city is making noises to non-renew and take the property of the hangar builder. Probably won't change our terms but it is sure chilling to anyone thinking about taking the city up on their 'commercial land for lease' sign. I know one guy who lost his maintenance hangar because the county decided they wanted to drill for gas in that location.
 
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Lowflynjack said:
Since we recently got funding from the State of Texas, they have the numbers posted on the board. $666,666 for the State, $66,666 for the City. Total $733K for 12 hangars!!
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It is mindboggling how expensive hangars get the moment the feds provide OPM (other people's money).
 
As an airport operator, I can tell you a big reason is funding. There is a reason nearly all airports are government owned, it is nearly impossible to make an airport work financially without tax money support. An airport can not charge enough for rent usually to fund construction of a hangar building, so tax money has to be used. Politicians are leery of using tax money to support what the common public sees as "a rich man's hobby". Even when we are in a position to build, it may take several years of planning and grants to fully fund the project. That is what is happening here, we are planning to build new hangars, but it is several years out. And by then there may be another economic downturn and we may not need the hangars. It is not a perfect system, but it is what we have.
 
Developers have a natural tendency to seek the highest returns. If the hangar project can make money for the developer, it will get done. But not owning the land, thats a big impediment. Owning the land is what has paid off over the years. The building itself just goes up at the rate of inflation. Land, at least around here, goes up quite a bit higher rate, or at least it has in the past.

My suggestion has been to actually offer full land ownership to the hangar owners, complete with warranty deed. The few airports I have seen that do that have no problem getting hangars built. Complain about no hangar? Go buy a lot and build one! Government airport entitie doesnt want to sell off those properties for some reason so its rarely done that way. Probably because they feel they will lose control of the airport etc. It just isn't done. And ownership is a good deal for the hangar owners too. They get real estate appreciation and can sell it for more than they bought it for!

Frankly, the way city and county airports are run are what you get when government owns everything. Everything run by elected committee, no profits allowed, run for the good of the people, be fair to everyone. Reminds me of the George Orwell book "Animal Farm".
 
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weilke said:
It is mindboggling how expensive hangars get the moment the feds provide OPM (other people's money).
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I'll see if I can find the breakdown, it's amazing. You have to do studies on water run-off, soil samples, etc. Since the 12 new hangars are considered one big building, it's now so big that City codes require it to have fire sprinklers.

Government really can come up with some creative ways to spend money. I'm told that no taxiway can directly from a ramp to a runway going forward. Essentially you will need to make two turns to get to a runway. I guess their stop runway incursion program isn't working!
 
Its not cheap to build a hangar. They cost more than most people think they do. Don't forget, someone has to pave and build drainage for all that ramp. Utilities have to be put in. It adds up. Someone said $61,000 for each hangar space or so. More if they are individual hangars. And that doesn't include the ground ownership, thats just the hangar and ramp right? At 5% of 61k that is $255 a month and you still have to pay the lease on the ground (this is where the land ownership comes in). That lease money is rent and rent is just tossing money away, better to own. Unless the airport will lease if for a bargain, which sometimes they do. These deals are all different. And remember, at the end of the lease, you own nothing!
 
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Lowflynjack said:
I'll see if I can find the breakdown, it's amazing. You have to do studies on water run-off, soil samples, etc. Since the 12 new hangars are considered one big building, it's now so big that City codes require it to have fire sprinklers.

Government really can come up with some creative ways to spend money. I'm told that no taxiway can directly from a ramp to a runway going forward. Essentially you will need to make two turns to get to a runway. I guess their stop runway incursion program isn't working!
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We just built a unit of 14 large, very nice, T-Hangars here in PA. Bi-fold doors, club room down one end, etc. We paid $300k total. We have all the same requirements for fire protection etc. Someone down your way has to have just pocketed a massive bribe.
 
Lowflynjack said:
When towns do build hangars, they're often like mine. They're nice and sealed well, with a bi-folding door that opens upward. Most pilots would settle for a lot less!

Since we recently got funding from the State of Texas, they have the numbers posted on the board. $666,666 for the State, $66,666 for the City. Total $733K for 12 hangars!! At the average rental rate we pay of $279 x 12 hangars x 12 months = $40K per year. That's 18 years to pay it off. Of course the City doesn't have to pay all of it, just the $66K, but we've been told the State will not fund anymore hangars anywhere for now. If a City had to fund the whole amount, there is no way it would happen for most small towns.

With the $66K the City has to pay, I was very disappointed they didn't try to get at least 24 hangars. They would have paid them off in 3 years, then it's mostly profit.
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Exactly! My airport is privately owned and makes a whole lot of money. There are over 100 airplanes at this hole in the wall middle of nowhere ratty old airport. Why?? Because it's cheap and not over run by the feds with fences and pass codes. 90% of the hangars are wood framed covered in metal siding. Only the area that the plane rides on is paved in most of them, the "wasted" area is just gravel. There are some newer metal hangars with full concrete and those are usually the ones that are open and available. Small wood enclosed hangars are $175.00, large wood ones are 185, metal ones are 250.00 and open front wood t-hangars are 100.
 
As people have mention, why can't we do hangers like we do housing developments. The owner (airport) gets the land sub divided puts in the basic "roads" and utilities. Then sells individual hangers like you would buy a condo, where the site improvement costs are built into the selling price of the hanger. Take a number around say $50k to$75k (based on some of the numbers mentioned earlier plus profit margin) as a sale price for a small hanger. Owner buys hanger with standard mortgage, pays the utilities, and pays a set maintenance fee per year. If you get the government involvement at a minimum, you may even be able to sell the hangers for even cheaper.
 
They could, but they don't. The airport governing body (usually a city entity) doesn't want to sell off the land. They want the city to keep ownership of the land for a variety of reasons. Control of the airport is the main one. Cities dont sell off their land, it just isn't done is another. Some private airports do exactly what you suggest though.
 
The problem is most airports are under federal grant assurances, and we are required to retain ownership of the land. The most we can do is lease the land to the hangar builder. Our airport has been fairly successful in doing just this though. We several years ago subdivided one area, paved a taxilane, and stubbed in utilities for each lot. We currently have 7 of the 10 lots filled, and receive constant interest on the remaining three. We are already looking into developing Phase 2. The biggest roadblock we have been running into lately is building codes. The International Building Code, which our city adopted, is very strict on hangars and makes development a difficult sale.
 
midwestpa24 said:
The problem is most airports are under federal grant assurances, and we are required to retain ownership of the land. The most we can do is lease the land to the hangar builder. Our airport has been fairly successful in doing just this though. We several years ago subdivided one area, paved a taxilane, and stubbed in utilities for each lot. We currently have 7 of the 10 lots filled, and receive constant interest on the remaining three. We are already looking into developing Phase 2. The biggest roadblock we have been running into lately is building codes. The International Building Code, which our city adopted, is very strict on hangars and makes development a difficult sale.
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How can the codes for hangers be that bad (granted many building codes are now overkill)? My dad was a commercial GC for years, I have been around construction sites my entire life, and a hanger is a dead simple building. Foundation, prefab metal no frills building, electricity, and maybe minimal plumbing for hoses, and possibly a communal small bathroom. It is basically a warehouse, and those are very cheap compared to a fully finished building.

The airport by me would be ideal for some privately owned hangers. They have an entire golf course that was closed about 2 years ago that is legally part of the same property. I know they have taken FAA money recently so are require to stay open, but I believe it is privately owned.
 
drotto said:
How can the codes for hangers be that bad (granted many building codes are now overkill)? My dad was a commercial GC for years, I have been around construction sites my entire life, and a hanger is a dead simple building. Foundation, prefab metal no frills building, electricity, and maybe minimal plumbing for hoses, and possibly a communal small bathroom. It is basically a warehouse, and those are very cheap compared to a fully finished building.
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Its the fire code stuff that gets complicated and adds to the cost of the building. Firewalls, fire ratings, sprinklers, etc. Not to mention, nearly all of the hangars in our development have more than a few thrills.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I'll see if I can find the breakdown, it's amazing. You have to do studies on water run-off, soil samples, etc. Since the 12 new hangars are considered one big building, it's now so big that City codes require it to have fire sprinklers.
!
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Do you have handicapped parking and braille lettering on the hangar doors too?
 
It sounds like the answer is: If you build on private airport land, the hangars can be built for under $25k a piece. If you build on government land, the cost jumps to $60k a piece, and the process requires tons of time/regulations/applications/approvals. And since many (most?) airports are municipal, and everyone's fighting for taxpayer dollars, and pilots are rich people, that's why there's very little hangar building. Sounds unfortunate, but true. Thanks for the replies.
 
Old Fart said:
Many airports could increase the number of actively flying planes if they evicted all the people who use hangars as cheap subsidized storage space or just hold a hangar 'because the list is so long' while they don't actually own a plane.

Yep
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Bingo. I'm trying to not tattle on some hanger renters at my local airfield, but I want a damn hanger...
 
Katamarino said:
We just built a unit of 14 large, very nice, T-Hangars here in PA. Bi-fold doors, club room down one end, etc. We paid $300k total. We have all the same requirements for fire protection etc. Someone down your way has to have just pocketed a massive bribe.
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Just for the metal box, yes this sounds crazy. You don't know how much site work was required. Just raising a 12plex and ramp by a couple of inches for drainage requires many truckloads of fill.
 
UngaWunga said:
Bingo. I'm trying to not tattle on some hanger renters at my local airfield, but I want a damn hanger...
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They make envelopes and paper and it's unlikely anyone is going to dust an anonymous letter for prints. Ha.
 
weilke said:
Many airports could increase the number of actively flying planes if they evicted all the people who use hangars as cheap subsidized storage space or just hold a hangar 'because the list is so long' while they dont actually own a plane.

And yes, it is aggravating if you can't find a hangar yet the airports are ghost towns with few planes ever moving. When you do see a hangar door open, you are looking at the back of an RV or stacks of boxes (maybe a a raggedy champ in between that hasn't flown in 10 years).

Some airport owners are just fine with that. They are happy running a mini-storage with a runway. They know that the GA business is fickle and that aircraft owners come and go, so they value the stable rental stream from the non-avition tenants.

.
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will this fix that?
https://www.federalregister.gov/art...n-the-non-aeronautical-use-of-airport-hangars
 
The agreements I've looked at say you must store a plane there. Of course if it's a good ole' boy network, you might get blacklisted. :)
 
Some new hangars were build recently at KHWO, Hollywood/N. Perry. I was offered one and turned it down as at $650 per month it was just too much. I used to rent a condo for less than that when I was working away from home! I presently pay around $270 to be tied down in a shade port. And thirty years ago in upstate NY I used to pay $75 per month for a hangar.
 
FlySince9 said:
will this fix that?
https://www.federalregister.gov/art...n-the-non-aeronautical-use-of-airport-hangars
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Yes. However, whenever airports try to enforce this, there is great upset in the local pilot community. Pilots are a self righteous short tempered bunch, you tell them they need to take the boat out of their hangar they see the end of civilization, the rise of fascism and start to gather torches, guns and injunctions.
A hangar should contain 1 or more airworhy planes, maybe a car or motorcycle and tools/fluids etc. to maintain the plane. The airport should not be in the business of providing you a motorcycle custom shop with runway access.
 
weilke said:
Yes. However, whenever airports try to enforce this, there is great upset in the local pilot community. Pilots are a self righteous short tempered bunch, you tell them they need to take the boat out of their hangar they see the end of civilization, the rise of fascism and start to gather torches, guns and injunctions.
A hangar should contain 1 or more airworhy planes, maybe a car or motorcycle and tools/fluids etc. to maintain the plane. The airport should not be in the business of providing you a motorcycle custom shop with runway access.
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Gets tricky when you own it. If it wasn't built with gov't funding and you hold a deed to it, then you get into a grey area of "land use" and what not.
 
Grum.Man said:
Exactly! My airport is privately owned and makes a whole lot of money. There are over 100 airplanes at this hole in the wall middle of nowhere ratty old airport. Why?? Because it's cheap and not over run by the feds with fences and pass codes. 90% of the hangars are wood framed covered in metal siding. Only the area that the plane rides on is paved in most of them, the "wasted" area is just gravel. There are some newer metal hangars with full concrete and those are usually the ones that are open and available. Small wood enclosed hangars are $175.00, large wood ones are 185, metal ones are 250.00 and open front wood t-hangars are 100.
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Crap! The cheapest hanger at the local, privately owned airport is $350.00 a month Electricity is extra. The county airport starts at $420.00 a month and escalates quickly to $801.00 a month, and you have to pay a fee to get in and out of the hanger area.

sigh.......
 
This is what happens when dumberment tries to regulate and run something. Let's face it GA is dying slowly but I continue to see projects like at FCI to add 500' of runway for $15 million dollars or some other ridiculous amount, installing a LOC approach at West Point VA when they have LPV in both directions, terminal buildings at a cost of $400/sq ft. etc. and so on. I think one of the steps that should be taken to develop the vast waste of real estate around airports is allow through the fence access, allow someone to build and make them pay for the right to use the taxiway, which was built with gov't funds. I realize there are about a million built in restrictions to that, mainly the self supporting bureaucracy but you have to start somewhere.
 
denverpilot said:
Gets tricky when you own it. If it wasn't built with gov't funding and you hold a deed to it, then you get into a grey area of "land use" and what not.
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Airports are supposed to write their land leases with a clause that all FAA regs supercede the terms of the lease. So even if the land lease doesn't specify exclusive aviation use, that clause is supposed to give the airport the wedge to enforce the compliance manual provisions.
 
weilke said:
Airports are supposed to write their land leases with a clause that all FAA regs supercede the terms of the lease. So even if the land lease doesn't specify exclusive aviation use, that clause is supposed to give the airport the wedge to enforce the compliance manual provisions.
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Right. It's when they don't that things get interesting.

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