Slow flight in the pattern

[greddawn]

Hello all - new poster to POA - I am a 40 hour student flying out of Houston - I am only a few weeks from my check ride, so I figured it was about time to start posting.

My CFI and I were having a discussion in regards to extending a downwind leg due to traffic on final. In this instance, the traffic on final was slow (c152) and over 3 miles out when we reached the numbers on downwind. I set up in a slow flight configuration and held altitude until we were abeam. After the landing, the CFI said that flying slow in the pattern isn't a good idea. My logic behind it was that we didn't want to extend downwind so far that we would have a long final. We weren't set up to make the runway in the event of an engine failure. His defense of his point was that he couldn't see the pattern in a nose high configuration and was concerned about us not seeing other traffic.

I was hoping to get some opinions on both ways of thinking and see what the consensus is on here.

edit for clarification - We were not at MCA, we were doing 70kts w/ 10 deg flaps (piper warrior)

 

[LDJones]

I may suggest slowing to your final approach speed (1.3 Vso) to minimize the distance on the extended downwind, but definitely not slow flight, which is just above stall. Keep in mind the FAA wants to see slow flight/stall demonstrations completed no lower than 1,500' AGL. You're already 500' lower than that in the pattern and descending. That's not where you want to flirt with a stall.

 

[greddawn]

I should probably clarify - I was not actually in slow flight - configured with 10 deg flaps flying about 70knots. Piper warrior 180. Slow flight would be around 60 knots in that plane. We were nose high though.

 

[Silvaire]

Yes, if you are talking about Minimum Controllable Airspeed (MCA) that is just an exercise used to demonstrate your capability of controlling the airplane on the edge of the stall. It has no useful purpose in the pattern. Your ability to maneuver at that speed and attitude is severely constricted. But I see no problem flying at reduced speed to avoid going into the next county.

 

[flhrci]

Three miles out and a slow 152 possibly means that you could have landed with a tight base and final. If he was on a 3 mile final. Or you could have done a 360 turn, or left the pattern or come back in. I think those may be the only options. Slow flight does not belong in the pattern.

I am also thinking that since you were in the pattern, you had the right of way. He did not.


David

 

[MAKG1]

Extending level with that kind of geometry, I'd put the flaps back in and accelerate back up to downwind speed (80 or 90 in a Warrior). Visibility in the pattern in a PA28 is generally not so bad, but having the nose in the air is indeed a problem. You naturally have a blind spot below you, and the nose-high attitude extends that in front, right where you don't want it.

FYI "slow flight" is closer to 50 in that airplane. The stall speed is 50 at max gross. You weren't anywhere near max gross, right? If the stall warning isn't sounding, you're not in slow flight. Even if it is sounding, you might be a bit fast for that. I've done nice (slow) level turns in an Archer at 47 with the stall horn wailing and no loss of altitude.

There are some airplanes (e.g., C177) where trying that on final will hide the runway.

 

[greddawn]

Three miles out and a slow 152 possibly means that you could have landed with a tight base and final. If he was on a 3 mile final. Or you could have done a 360 turn, or left the pattern or come back in. I think those may be the only options. Slow flight does not belong in the pattern.

I am also thinking that since you were in the pattern, you had the right of way. He did not.


David

Towered airport - he had been cleared and I was asked to stay on downwind until he was abeam.

Lower speeds risking stall at pattern attitude makes sense for why to avoid it. The 1.3 Vs suggestion sounds like the right approach. I don't think I was too far off at 70 knots, just maybe needed to bump it up to 80 and lose the flaps until I make my first turn to keep the attitude more level.

 

[docmirror]

I agree with your instructor. No place for slow flight. Handling is worse, visibility is worse, Just fly a normal appr speed and allow the spacing needed to get the job done.

 

[greddawn]

FYI "slow flight" is closer to 50 in that airplane. The stall speed is 50 at max gross. You weren't anywhere near max gross, right? If the stall warning isn't sounding, you're not in slow flight. Even if it is sounding, you might be a bit fast for that. I've done nice (slow) level turns in an Archer at 47 with the stall horn wailing and no loss of altitude.

Interesting - I seem to recall that my CFI had me doing slow flight exercises at 55-60 when we covered that in my training. I could be mistaken, it's been a few months - I'll ask him about it during our next flight. Thanks for the info.

 

[ChrisK]

Interesting - I seem to recall that my CFI had me doing slow flight exercises at 55-60 when we covered that in my training. I could be mistaken, it's been a few months - I'll ask him about it during our next flight. Thanks for the info.

Mine had me do slow flight too fast as well, and my DPE did not seem to mind. Knowing what I know now, I know that it was too fast, and I figure that they were comfortable with both my handling of the aircraft at those speeds and with the buffer above a stall.

 

[MAKG1]

Interesting - I seem to recall that my CFI had me doing slow flight exercises at 55-60 when we covered that in my training. I could be mistaken, it's been a few months - I'll ask him about it during our next flight. Thanks for the info.

My instructor did that in primary training as well, though I trained in a 172.

It was a checkout instructor that really pushed the envelope, when I transitioned to PA28. That was a good lesson.

 

[flhrci]

Towered airport - he had been cleared and I was asked to stay on downwind until he was abeam.

That changes things. Slow it up but not slow flight speed. Low cruise I suppose. They could have had you do a Right 360 for spacing." Have done that for controllers before.

David

 

[eMKay]

55-60 for slow flight? My CFI had me do it until the airspeed indicator stopped working

 

[douglas393]

You were in a towered environment, no harm in asking the tower to allow you to do a tight base and final. The most he could say is no. Remember the most important thing is to fly the plane, and slowing to a speed which causes you to be just above a stall with a nose high attitude, at a low altitude, can cause your day to end quite badly and suddenly.

 

[wabower]

There are other ways to slow down. I've used gear and partial flaps for 50 years as a method to reduce speed and shorten the downwind leg. So far, so good.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

There are other ways to slow down. I've used gear and partial flaps for 50 years as a method to reduce speed and shorten the downwind leg. So far, so good.

If you drop the gear in a 152, you'll speed up, not slow down.

For "follow the guy on final" while on downwind, I was taught, and still do in practice, slow to about 70 KIAS, and drop 10 or 20 flaps to keep the nose down. No point in flying to the next county unnecessarily.

 

[rottydaddy]

As far as keeping a good scan goes, I feel it's probably better to S-turn a bit, or just extend the downwind, than to mush along on the downwind at your normal final approach speed or slower. You could even do a 360 on downwind, turning towards the outside of the pattern (but obviously not right at the corner where all the "45 entry" traffic is joining the downwind.
But it's also not so huge a problem, scan-wise, to be pitched up what- 5 degrees? Probably less than the normal climbout angle, unless you're really near a stall. You could even use rudder to swing the nose back and forth a bit.
Having said all that, I'll add that I've rarely had to do any of that stuff.But when confronted with diminishing spacing from traffic ahead of me, I've never been tempted to just slow down on downwind. I don't like really long finals, so I will often S-turn and then turn base maybe just a little later than normal.
I'll also add that I'm not going to wait around for a 150 on a 3- mile final if I don't have to!!
With me abeam the numbers and a 150 on a 3-mile final, assuming a similar airplane, a runway longer than the minimum for me and that plane, and no tower, I would probably speed up or turn base early then slip like crazy on final. Typically, being abeam the numbers means you're about half a mile from the runway centerline laterally, and that will be the length of your base leg. If you then fly a 1-mile or shorter final, your total distance is 2 1/2 miles, maximum, as opposed to the 150's 3.
At the abeam point, you are probably still going a bit faster than the 150, and can easily carry that speed to the base turn yet still make a safe landing from a 1-mile final, all while the 150 is going slower and slower. You can also reduce your distance and time to touchdown by making a descending 180 to the threshold from somewhere between abeam point and normal base leg turn, instead of flying full downwind/base/final. Just like the ol' "simulated engine out from abeam point" exercise.
You can even turn base or do a 180 really early and land long, if that's a safe option. In a nutshell, the sooner you are over the runway, the better, to keep good spacing and so the other pilot will see you for sure (they have to be looking at the runway, or at least should be).

I do not think I'd do this without a radio, though... unless I'm flying a glider, where I start 200 feet lower and 1/4 mile closer to the runway, and landing alongside the paved runway. If they were to speed up for some reason while you are turning base or final (unable to see them as you turn away), it could get ugly if they aren't expecting you to do that.

 

[TommyG]

I see no problem with adding 10 degrees and slowing 10 knots. The OP said it wasn't slow flight or MCA. The only time. Would say it might be a problem would be if the pattern was busy.

 

[PBristolJr]

No slow flight in the pattern, but slowing down? You better believe it.

 

[Jayhawk]

55-60 for slow flight? My CFI had me do it until the airspeed indicator stopped working

It ain't slow flight until we're checking our groundspeed to see if we're going backwards yet

 

[poadeleted20]

Three miles out and a slow 152 possibly means that you could have landed with a tight base and final. If he was on a 3 mile final. Or you could have done a 360 turn, or left the pattern or come back in.

All possibilities, along with slowing to 70 knots as the OP did.

Slow flight does not belong in the pattern.

If by "slow flight" you mean flight at minimum controllable airspeed, I'd agree -- you're on the edge of a stall and 1000 AGL is not the place to practice that. But slowing to a speed with reasonable stall margin so you can stay behind the slower plane in front of you is a perfectly acceptable technique.

I am also thinking that since you were in the pattern, you had the right of way. He did not.

Being in the pattern does not give you right of way. See 14 CFR 91.113(g):

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to
make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake
that aircraft.

...and this enforcement case. The aircraft on final did have the right of way, but that only means the OP on downwind cannot force the aircraft on final to alter its approach. If the OP turned in front of the other plane with sufficient space to complete a landing without affecting the 152's approach, that would not violate the 152's right of way.

Note: Above posted before seeing that it was a tower-controlled airport, in which case turning base against tower's instructions would violate 91.123 regarding ATC instructions and 91.113 on right-of-way is not involved. But this post does apply at nontowered airports, where aircraft on final do indeed have legal right of way over aircraft on downwind.

 

[poadeleted20]

Towered airport - he had been cleared and I was asked to stay on downwind until he was abeam.

In that case you cannot turn in front of the other plane and must obey tower's instructions. Reducing speed is just fine in that case as long as you don't give away all your stall margin.

Lower speeds risking stall at pattern attitude makes sense for why to avoid it. The 1.3 Vs suggestion sounds like the right approach.

Agreed.

 

[poadeleted20]

Interesting - I seem to recall that my CFI had me doing slow flight exercises at 55-60 when we covered that in my training. I could be mistaken, it's been a few months - I'll ask him about it during our next flight. Thanks for the info.

The PTS defines "slow flight" as follows:

an airspeed at which any further

increase in angle of attack, increase in load factor, or​

reduction in power, would result in an immediate stall.

Clearly, you don't want to do that in the traffic pattern. But slowing to 1.3-1.5 times stall speed to stay behind another plane is a safe and effective tool.

 

[Silvaire]

..But slowing to a speed with reasonable stall margin so you can stay behind the slower plane in front of you is a perfectly acceptable technique...

Beyond acceptable, it's necessary. But in this case he wasn't actually "behind" the other aircraft and he was slowing down to minimize the distance he would have to travel away from the airport before turning base. That's okay too but something else to be considered is that there might be someone behind you and you wouldn't want to slow down to a point that might give that person problems

 

[rbridges]

a 152 on 3 mile final, you could almost time his landing with a calender.

 

[ateamer]

Flying a tight pattern is good for efficiency - getting more planes in and out more quickly. I don't understand the near-obsession some have with it being necessary to make the field in case of engine failure. Isn't flying at low power settings the time when it's least likely to fail? And what about en route? Do we always make sure we're within gliding distance of a runway and adjust the route if not?

 

[MAKG1]

No, a significant number of fuel exhaustion accidents happen at or near the destination, as a turn can unport the one tank that has fuel in it. It's also the time when you have the least amount of fuel in the aircraft.

I also had an engine quit due to incorrect mixture management at high density altitude (no, I didn't push it full rich). As soon as the engine went to idle, it quit, flooded. Fortunately, this happened with the main gear on the ground. There was plenty of fuel in the aircraft, and unfortunately plenty in the cylinders as well.

 

[Captain]

Flying a tight pattern is good for efficiency - getting more planes in and out more quickly. I don't understand the near-obsession some have with it being necessary to make the field in case of engine failure. Isn't flying at low power settings the time when it's least likely to fail? And what about en route? Do we always make sure we're within gliding distance of a runway and adjust the route if not?

I was half tempted to post exactly that...but knowing how I post it would have come off different and derailed the thread. You said it much better than I would have.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Beyond acceptable, it's necessary. But in this case he wasn't actually "behind" the other aircraft and he was slowing down to minimize the distance he would have to travel away from the airport before turning base. That's okay too but something else to be considered is that there might be someone behind you and you wouldn't want to slow down to a point that might give that person problems

This is a key point I think. You really need to have solid situational awareness when flying the pattern whether at a towered or non-towered field. You need to know what is behind you as well as what is in front. Slowing down significantly in a plane like warrior may not be the best idea if you have someone faster following closely. At the same time, it may not be a great idea to maintain your speed and extend the downwind to the point where you end up on a 5 mile final. You need to know what everyone else is doing and how you fit in to that picture in order to make the best decision for the given situation.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

something else to be considered is that there might be someone behind you and you wouldn't want to slow down to a point that might give that person problems

If there is someone behind me, I'll tell the tower I'm slowing for an extended downwind.

 

[Silvaire]

If there is someone behind me, I'll tell the tower I'm slowing for an extended downwind.

The point is if you're in a 150 and the guy behind you is in a PA-32 why would you slow down to 55 kts and cause a conflict when there is no need to? You should share the pattern and accommodate others within your means to do so.

 

[eMKay]

It ain't slow flight until we're checking our groundspeed to see if we're going backwards yet

Yeah we've done that too, lol

 

[greddawn]

Flying a tight pattern is good for efficiency - getting more planes in and out more quickly. I don't understand the near-obsession some have with it being necessary to make the field in case of engine failure. Isn't flying at low power settings the time when it's least likely to fail? And what about en route? Do we always make sure we're within gliding distance of a runway and adjust the route if not?

I wouldn't call it a near-obsession, merely an exercise in risk management.

My understanding is that the pattern has a higher incidence rate of engine failures for various reasons, some detailed by other posters. Flying within glide distance of the runway gives you more options in an emergency situation.

I am sure you are being facetious in regards to en route travel. I would think that the buffer of additional altitude and time to rectify a situation (or pick a field) would make this an apples to oranges comparison.

Either way, I still have a bunch to learn. Thanks for the input.

 

[denverpilot]

If you know the terrain "out there" on the extended downwind isn't conducive to landing, you can always ASK for the 360 instead of going miles out there... you'll probably get it. Controller doesn't care, they just don't want you in front of the aircraft already cleared to land.

 

[gismo]

Three miles out and a slow 152 possibly means that you could have landed with a tight base and final. If he was on a 3 mile final. Or you could have done a 360 turn, or left the pattern or come back in. I think those may be the only options. Slow flight does not belong in the pattern.[\quote]
You're probably right about that...

I am also thinking that since you were in the pattern, you had the right of way. He did not.

...but you're very wrong about that.

 

[Silvaire]

It's a controlled field, why are people talking about "right of way"?

 

[somorris]

It's a controlled field, why are people talking about "right of way"?

Good question.

If you know the terrain "out there" on the extended downwind isn't conducive to landing, you can always ASK for the 360 instead of going miles out there... you'll probably get it.

Agreed. Also, it doesn't hurt to slow down a little as some have indicated.

 

[poadeleted20]

It's a controlled field, why are people talking about "right of way"?

Because absent controller instructions, the right of way rules still apply in tower-controlled airspace, and controllers don't always give separation instructions to all aircraft in their airspace unless it has to do with separation on the runway.

Went through that today at Easton -- about three airplanes flying the ILS at the same time, all VFR, none intending to land. Tower's instruction to all was "Be advised multiple aircraft on the approach, maintain visual lookout." The aircraft behind us (we were a Cherokee doing 85 knots) was going a lot faster, and about to overtake us (see 91.113 paragraphs f and g). The pilot behind us wisely elected to slow down rather than trying to go around us on the ILS, but Tower didn't participate in either pointing us out to the following aircraft or giving any instructions to either of us. Reminded me a lot of Tim Stivers' old "Y'all be careful now, hear?" joke.

 

[Captain]

Don't do 'slow flight' in the pattern. Don't be stupid. Get along. It's easy.

Help me help you...HELP me HELP you...HELP ME HELP YOU!!!!