Skydiver hits plane
- Thread starter cgooden
- Start date
Carol
Line Up and Wait
cgooden said:
"Albert Wing III hit the airplane that he jumped from Saturday morning, police Cmdr. Randel Henderson said. Police said the victim had opened his parachute when he struck the left wing at about 600 feet. His legs were severed at the knees, but he managed to land near an airport."
woodstock
Final Approach
how do these things happen? the plane should be long gone, and I wouldn't think they would descend?
Brian Austin
En-Route
The way some of the pilots fly around here, it's not unusual for them to beat the jumpers down if it's a high jump with a high opening.woodstock said:
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
Re: Skydiver and plane collide.
Lots of times the divers land way before the plane, sometimes after. The jumpplane is usually under some pressure to get back down and ready for the next cycle at busy places like Deland.
I am going to comment on the title.... while I am sure no intent was meant with the wording, I think its important to know that 'who hit whom', or the placing of blame - has not been established. I see no reg. that says one or the other has the right of way either. I think we are supposed to use the 'see and be seen' rule to prevent collisions with divers, and in fact they are much less maneuverable than us. So I have changed the title on my post, I think it fairer.
A sad event for both divers and pilots. May this event make us all more aware of parachutists in the airspace we share with them.
woodstock said:
Lots of times the divers land way before the plane, sometimes after. The jumpplane is usually under some pressure to get back down and ready for the next cycle at busy places like Deland.
I am going to comment on the title.... while I am sure no intent was meant with the wording, I think its important to know that 'who hit whom', or the placing of blame - has not been established. I see no reg. that says one or the other has the right of way either. I think we are supposed to use the 'see and be seen' rule to prevent collisions with divers, and in fact they are much less maneuverable than us. So I have changed the title on my post, I think it fairer.
A sad event for both divers and pilots. May this event make us all more aware of parachutists in the airspace we share with them.
Brian Austin
En-Route
Re: Skydiver and plane collide.
My understanding (through my original PPL CFI) was that skydivers had the right of way. We have a lot of jumping here in central AZ. I tend to avoid the airspaces around the heaviest jump sites. It's just safer for both of us.Let'sgoflying! said:
Maverick
Line Up and Wait
I never could understand the desire to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
Jeannie
Jeannie
MSmith
Line Up and Wait
I'm pretty sure that the skydiver has the right of way, being less maneuverable.
It sounds like pilot error to me.
It sounds like pilot error to me.
BillG
Pre-takeoff checklist
That's what I used to think, but as a pilot I've finally learned - there's no such thing as a perfectly good plane!!
Jim Chumley
Pre-takeoff checklist
I've flown into and around DeLand often. There are sky divers in the air over the airport every week. In my experience, the presence of sky divers is announced frequently before the activities begin and as they get underway. I've always assumed that the pilot of the jump aircraft is the one making the alert announcements. They use the published unicom frequency for DeLand.
That the accident took place at all is terrible - that the sky divers' own jump plane was involved is almost beyond imagination.
Jim
That the accident took place at all is terrible - that the sky divers' own jump plane was involved is almost beyond imagination.
Jim
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
Since I'm usually IFR when on any cross country flight, Center usually announces jumps and I'm alerted. I can sure see how someone VFR could fly near the airport and not be on CATF if a few thousand AGL. I don't think many VFR folks listen to CATF when overflying unless they are near the traffic pattern altitude. Just listen to the CD player and cruise along!! All the more reason to have number two on 121.5 so you can be contacted in an emergency at any time you're not talking to center.
Best,
Dave
Best,
Dave
Brian Austin
En-Route
They don't put CD players in rentals around here. And as I was explaining to a soon-to-be student pilot, the hardest thing I've had to learn is situational awareness: who is where, what they are doing and how it will affect me.Dave Siciliano said:
Both COMs are on nearby airfields and I monitor them concurrently.
Eamon
Line Up and Wait
Skydiver hits plane/ The real deal
Having tossed divers Many-a-time........
Part 105 is real exacting in what is expected of the jump plane pilot.
There are 2 required calls. One is 5 min prior to letting the jumpers out & the other is "Parachute operation have ended for that flight & both are to the ATC freq, not the airport Freq.
I always also announce jumpers away to ATC & on the the airport Freq, but it is not required. In some planes (1 radio with manual knob) It can be a real pain to switch to the airport freq.
If you read the FAR (105.13) you will see that switching away from the ATC Freq to announce on the common or tower FREQ is actually breaking the FAR because you break "Continuously monitor" of the ATC freq when you switch to the other freq.
If there might be jumpers in the area you are flying, The ONLY way to be sure is to listen to the ATC or call them & ask. They are the only ones who know for sure if there are jumpers out.
Now as far as the accident on hand.........................
The only way to call ATC & let them know all jumping has ended is to keep an eye out for and watch your jumpers & see & count them ON THE GROUND.
Most ATC people don't ask for the "ALL Done" call, but it is a FAR.
Now I only had 4 max in the 182 & I can see in a Otter or Caravan, it would be hard, but this pilot should have known where all his jumpers were & are at ALL times. It it inexcusable to not see & then hit you own jumper.
PIC is just that. Never let a jump zone pressure you into an unsafe position.
Eamon
woodstock said:
Having tossed divers Many-a-time........
Part 105 is real exacting in what is expected of the jump plane pilot.
There are 2 required calls. One is 5 min prior to letting the jumpers out & the other is "Parachute operation have ended for that flight & both are to the ATC freq, not the airport Freq.
I always also announce jumpers away to ATC & on the the airport Freq, but it is not required. In some planes (1 radio with manual knob) It can be a real pain to switch to the airport freq.
If you read the FAR (105.13) you will see that switching away from the ATC Freq to announce on the common or tower FREQ is actually breaking the FAR because you break "Continuously monitor" of the ATC freq when you switch to the other freq.
If there might be jumpers in the area you are flying, The ONLY way to be sure is to listen to the ATC or call them & ask. They are the only ones who know for sure if there are jumpers out.
Now as far as the accident on hand.........................
The only way to call ATC & let them know all jumping has ended is to keep an eye out for and watch your jumpers & see & count them ON THE GROUND.
Most ATC people don't ask for the "ALL Done" call, but it is a FAR.
Now I only had 4 max in the 182 & I can see in a Otter or Caravan, it would be hard, but this pilot should have known where all his jumpers were & are at ALL times. It it inexcusable to not see & then hit you own jumper.
PIC is just that. Never let a jump zone pressure you into an unsafe position.
Eamon
silver-eagle
En-Route
When there is parachute operations in Peperill, it is part of the preflight briefing from FSS and on those occations when I've flown in the area, ATC will usually give a heads-up as well. In my case, I'll follow ATC's advice and avoid the area completely. BOSTON has been very good about giving vectors around them too. Of course, this presumes you talk to ATC at all.
woodstock
Final Approach
Re: Skydiver hits plane/ The real deal
I'd jump out of your plane anytime Eamon! err, wait, maybe that didn't sound right...
a complete tragedy. I can't imagine hitting a plane! the ground is one thing, but a plane?
how much does the plane jump/move/shift and so on when they jump? what do you do to compensate?
Eamon said:
I'd jump out of your plane anytime Eamon! err, wait, maybe that didn't sound right...
a complete tragedy. I can't imagine hitting a plane! the ground is one thing, but a plane?
how much does the plane jump/move/shift and so on when they jump? what do you do to compensate?
RogerT
Cleared for Takeoff
There's a jump club at our airport and they're very active. Lincoln is about 20 miles away and the jump plane talks to the Class C guys in addition to
being on CTAF. They usually announce 5, 2, and 1 minute before jumpers
away. By monitoring Lincoln Approach and the local CTAF you can stay
on top of what they're up to. And talking to the jump plane helps you
keep the big picture. Approach also gives them a heads up on any
traffic in the area.
I'm having a little trouble understanding the jump plane getting into
the airspace of their own jumpers.
being on CTAF. They usually announce 5, 2, and 1 minute before jumpers
away. By monitoring Lincoln Approach and the local CTAF you can stay
on top of what they're up to. And talking to the jump plane helps you
keep the big picture. Approach also gives them a heads up on any
traffic in the area.
I'm having a little trouble understanding the jump plane getting into
the airspace of their own jumpers.
Brian Austin
En-Route
The jump pilots around here seem pretty good about announcing. I always hear five minute warning, one minute warnings and 'jumpers in the air' from Eloy, Coolidge, Buckeye and a few other airports. They also give their jump altitude when announcing, which is helpful.
When I was learning to fly out West the jump plane (Stationair) would sometimes make it down before the jumpers. The canopies were easy to see and they opened way above our pattern altitude but how would you see/avoid a free-falling 'diver? They used to jump morning to night so we were always aware... Last time I heard about a collision was in '93 when a skydiver and Piper collided above Northhampton; as I recall the aircraft lost its rudder and stabilizer and crashed.
Fast n' Furious
Line Up and Wait
Worst thing I was ever a part of was a three ship night tactical gone bad. Number three got out of position in the trail over the DZ and flew through the stick of jumpers from number one and two. I think we lost four men to various parts of a Herc. I can't believe daytime ops could be that hard with people under canopy. This is inexcusable in my considered opinion.
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Eamon
Line Up and Wait
Re: Skydiver hits plane/ The real deal
It is actually a real odd flight in a 182. When I bought my 182 it was set up with the jump door & step. I still have it so if you want, I could toss you
Just before you let the diver out, you slow the plane to your slowest controllable speed. Then you unlatch the door & add rudder to open the door. The door on a 182 is opened & closed with help from your rudder.After you unlatch it. The slipstream opens it & keeps it open and after all the divers are out, you hit the rudder the other way & it closes, you reach over & latch it & you're done.
The tricky part is that you need the rudder to open & then when the divers hang on the one side of the plane even full rudder is sometimes not enough to keep the plane going straight. As they let go, the plane snaps back & up a bit, but not so much as to be uncontrollable.
The only times I had a problem was when the jumpers were pilots also. The Jumper/pilots know how hard it is to keep straight & they would get themselves to the very far tip of my wing & wrap their toes on my leading edge. then they would just sit there with their back to the ground holding on with their toes looking at me & smiling while I would lose directional control. Just before the plane enter a spin, they would let go.
Skydiver are a strange bunch & they have the best parties every night
Eamon
woodstock said:I'd jump out of your plane anytime Eamon! err, wait, maybe that didn't sound right...
a complete tragedy. I can't imagine hitting a plane! the ground is one thing, but a plane?
how much does the plane jump/move/shift and so on when they jump? what do you do to compensate?
It is actually a real odd flight in a 182. When I bought my 182 it was set up with the jump door & step. I still have it so if you want, I could toss you
Just before you let the diver out, you slow the plane to your slowest controllable speed. Then you unlatch the door & add rudder to open the door. The door on a 182 is opened & closed with help from your rudder.After you unlatch it. The slipstream opens it & keeps it open and after all the divers are out, you hit the rudder the other way & it closes, you reach over & latch it & you're done.
The tricky part is that you need the rudder to open & then when the divers hang on the one side of the plane even full rudder is sometimes not enough to keep the plane going straight. As they let go, the plane snaps back & up a bit, but not so much as to be uncontrollable.
The only times I had a problem was when the jumpers were pilots also. The Jumper/pilots know how hard it is to keep straight & they would get themselves to the very far tip of my wing & wrap their toes on my leading edge. then they would just sit there with their back to the ground holding on with their toes looking at me & smiling while I would lose directional control. Just before the plane enter a spin, they would let go.
Skydiver are a strange bunch & they have the best parties every night
Eamon
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
DeeG
Cleared for Takeoff
Re: Skydiver and plane collide.
I used to fly out of Cal City airport in SoCal. On several occasions, I would see jumpers landing ON the runway, not at the designated drop zone. I called the LA FSDO and the guy there (he refused to give me his name) said that us pilots need to stay cleer of jumpers at all times. Fine, I can do that if they're where they're supposed to be. But he says that they can land on the runway any time they wanted and if I happened to be on short final, or departing, and I hit one, it would be my fault. Gotta love it, they get their own 'restricted' airspace around their drop zone that we can't fly in, yet they can drop in the pattern when ever they please. Even saw them landing on city streets as well!
Brian Austin said:
I used to fly out of Cal City airport in SoCal. On several occasions, I would see jumpers landing ON the runway, not at the designated drop zone. I called the LA FSDO and the guy there (he refused to give me his name) said that us pilots need to stay cleer of jumpers at all times. Fine, I can do that if they're where they're supposed to be. But he says that they can land on the runway any time they wanted and if I happened to be on short final, or departing, and I hit one, it would be my fault. Gotta love it, they get their own 'restricted' airspace around their drop zone that we can't fly in, yet they can drop in the pattern when ever they please. Even saw them landing on city streets as well!
Ed Guthrie
Cleared for Takeoff
Brian Austin said:
Don't let the FAA catch you doing that. Violates Part 105 with respect to one of the mandatory reports to ATC (jumping activity complete).
Fast n' Furious
Line Up and Wait
Maverick said:I never could understand the desire to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
Jeannie
I jumped out of some pieces of crap that were barely airplanes never mind perfectly good. Now about that callsign....
rsleeds
Pre-takeoff checklist
Maverick said:I never could understand the desire to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
Jeannie
I said the same thing to a friend of mine who has tons of jumps under his belt and he told me I obviously had never seen a jump plane
Ed Guthrie
Cleared for Takeoff
Re: Skydiver hits plane/ The real deal
I warned you but would you listen? Noooo. The Louisiana heat (and sniffing kerosene fumes) has obviously softened your brain. There are three (3) mandatory calls, not two (2). I remind you of the mandatory ATC calls list for skydiver pilots:
1. Establish radio contact with ATC atleast 5 minutes prior to tossing jumpers.
2. Notify ATC when last jumper has been ejected from the aircraft.
3. Notify ATC when last jumper is on the ground.
I offer this reminder in kindness. After all, we certainly do not want to repeat the episode in which you asked the Roanoke approach controller if it was appropriate to harangue you simply because some drunken skydiver slept with his wife. ;-)
Eamon said:
I warned you but would you listen? Noooo. The Louisiana heat (and sniffing kerosene fumes) has obviously softened your brain. There are three (3) mandatory calls, not two (2). I remind you of the mandatory ATC calls list for skydiver pilots:
1. Establish radio contact with ATC atleast 5 minutes prior to tossing jumpers.
2. Notify ATC when last jumper has been ejected from the aircraft.
3. Notify ATC when last jumper is on the ground.
I offer this reminder in kindness. After all, we certainly do not want to repeat the episode in which you asked the Roanoke approach controller if it was appropriate to harangue you simply because some drunken skydiver slept with his wife. ;-)
Eamon
Line Up and Wait
Re: Skydiver hits plane/ The real deal
Wassen't me? or was it? How much scotch?
I still think a jump plane pilot took his wife, dog & pickup truck. I think I am going to write a country song about it tonight
You are right as always.
105.13 - a - 2 - ii
Ed Guthrie said:
Wassen't me? or was it? How much scotch?
I still think a jump plane pilot took his wife, dog & pickup truck. I think I am going to write a country song about it tonight
You are right as always.
105.13 - a - 2 - ii