Skidding turns while doing photo mission

Old Geek

Old Geek

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Old Geek
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I'm wondering if there are any guidelines for the amount of acceptable skid bank angle verses airspeed reserve above stall.
 
Sounds too complicated to figure out. Just fly the airplane and don't push it to do something it doesn't want to do.
 
For any turn, even coordinated your main concern is load factor. Increased load factor increases stall speed. So. Dependent on your load factor, keep at least 1.3 Vs and you should be safe.
 
CTLSi said:
For any turn, even coordinated your main concern is load factor. Increased load factor increases stall speed. So. Dependent on your load factor, keep at least 1.3 Vs and you should be safe.
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Are you confusing velocity with load? I could load up at 1.3 until stall or i could unload at 1.3.

I'm sure I could skid into a spin at 1.3
 
Old Geek said:
I'm wondering if there are any guidelines for the amount of acceptable skid bank angle verses airspeed reserve above stall.
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I'm confused...

Usually on a photo mission you want more bank without turning, to get a wing out of the way, let's say.

That would typically lead a pilot to slip*.

Right?


*slip being defined as too much bank for the rate of turn.
 
CharlieTango said:
Are you confusing velocity with load? I could load up at 1.3 until stall or i could unload at 1.3.

I'm sure I could skid into a spin at 1.3
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No, I think you are. If you stay at 1.3Vs, you cannot stall. Of course, as you load up the plane, Vs increases, and with it 1.3Vs, so if you start at 1.3Vs in 1g flight and then load up the plane without accelerating, eventually 1.3Vs will catch up to your airspeed and the plane will stall. IOW, 1.3Vs is a moving target which depends on weight and load factor, but as long as you maintain a 30% margin over stall speed for your weight and load factor, you cannot stall, and if you don't stall, you cannot spin.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, I think you are. If you stay at 1.3Vs, you cannot stall. Of course, as you load up the plane, Vs increases, and with it 1.3Vs, so if you start at 1.3Vs in 1g flight and then load up the plane without accelerating, eventually 1.3Vs will catch up to your airspeed and the plane will stall. IOW, 1.3Vs is a moving target which depends on weight and load factor, but as long as you maintain a 30% margin over stall speed for your weight and load factor, you cannot stall, and if you don't stall, you cannot spin.
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Your right, wasn't thinking that Vs increases as I load up was seeing it as a fixed speed. Sorry CTLSi
 
FastEddieB said:
I'm confused...

Usually on a photo mission you want more bank without turning, to get a wing out of the way, let's say.

That would typically lead a pilot to slip*.

Right?


*slip being defined as too much bank for the rate of turn.
Click to expand...

Imagine following a river, with it on your right side so the observer can photograph it. The river makes a shallow bend to the left. You want to turn to the left while keeping the right wing down so he can get his shot. That's a skidding turn, right? Any way to know how much skid is safe?
 
Old Geek said:
Imagine following a river, with it on your right side so the observer can photograph it. The river makes a shallow bend to the left. You want to turn to the left while keeping the right wing down so he can get his shot. That's a skidding turn, right? Any way to know how much skid is safe?
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I suppose one could pull out an aerodynamics book, the aircraft manual, and a calculator, and come up with a maximum rudder deflection to use, but I don't see that as a practical solution. At the end of the day, it will be a matter of feel and "hearing the plane talk to you", and that's a matter of experience.
 
Old Geek said:
I'm wondering if there are any guidelines for the amount of acceptable skid bank angle verses airspeed reserve above stall.
Click to expand...

No skid is acceptable or necessary. I have done thousands of shots either slipping or steep orbit. Skidding tucks into an instant spin, a slip self corrects at the stall, just let off the rudder and it ends up level on its way over. Slip as deep as you want.
 
If you need the shot take the next exit and get back on the highway going the other way. Exit again and drive back by. No reason to die being fancy.
 
Old Geek said:
Imagine following a river, with it on your right side so the observer can photograph it. The river makes a shallow bend to the left. You want to turn to the left while keeping the right wing down so he can get his shot. That's a skidding turn, right? Any way to know how much skid is safe?
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OK. That's a remotely feasible scenario, I guess.

But normally one is not interested in increasing the turn rate while someone is shooting photos.

I, to, have been hired to do photo missions, and I don't recall ever needing to skid to get a shot. Extended slips, but not skids.
 
Old Geek said:
You want to turn to the left while keeping the right wing down so he can get his shot. That's a skidding turn, right? Any way to know how much skid is safe?
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right. and no one will know how much is safe, except you.

You will have to do some skidding turn stalls to get the feel of how far you can go and be safe. It is entirely safe to do, up to a point, because airshow pilots do it, and so do lots of people who are just having fun, and learning the true limits of the airplane's performance. It is a good training exercise to learn the feel and limits of skidding or slipping turns when necessary, and to just plain get the feel of the rudder.
Just do skidding and slipping stalls until you can fly into and out of stalls with little or no altitude loss and no feeling of a loss of control.
 
Old Geek said:
Imagine following a river, with it on your right side so the observer can photograph it. The river makes a shallow bend to the left. You want to turn to the left while keeping the right wing down so he can get his shot. That's a skidding turn, right? Any way to know how much skid is safe?
Click to expand...
Are you taking still shots or video? If it's stills, maneuver the airplane into position for each shot or short series of shots while staying fairly coordinated. I can see how you might need to skid a turn if you were videoing but even that's going to be near impossible if you need to follow a significant bend in the river from the inside of the curve unless you have a steerable gimbally mounted camera in a pod under the airplane.
 
go install an AOA indicator and stop worrying about it - just fly the indicator.
 
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