Six figure fines for overflying west coast sanctuaries

AdamZ said:
I love this requirment:

"Once NOAA advises that an operator has violated “their airspace,” pilots would be forced to prove wildlife was not disturbed to escape sanction. "

I suspect these matters will be tried before an ALJ I can see it now. Your honor I subponeaed the Sea Lion and he has failed to appear I request you honor draw an adverse infrence from the fact that the sea lion has ignored the subpona which in and of itself is contempt of this august body. If said sea lion was so disturbed by my flight he surely would be here to state that fact.
Click to expand...

Well Mr. NOAA representative.I guess I didn't disturb them as I received no phone calls, emails, texts from the wildlife and I couldn't have been that close as there are no dents in the airplane or holes in the windshield. As far as the people on the ground complaining have the Noaa give them each a paint ball gun so they can mark the planes as they fly by them the authorities can check the surrounding airports for colored paint splats and then issue tickets.
No doubt when we all are fitted with our soon to be ADS-B transponders we will automatically get our tickets via the mail.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I like Anthony's virtual persona very much (having never actually met him ;) ) but his post didn't strike me as intelligent conversation :frown: Perhaps I should go back and read it again and attempt to find signs of intelligent life in his ignoring the interesting parts if the issue in favor of attacking me for no good reason other than I exemplify the idea that not all GA pilots are libertarian-leaning conservatives despite the ample numbers of them on this forum?

And though I am a government employee you might be surprised by how little your "largesse" is responsible for sustaining me.
Click to expand...


Where did I attack you? I am sure you won't find "intelligent life", I am just a stupid pilot. ;)

It doesn't matter to me that your a government employee. I know we need government, and government employees. It only matters that you love GA and know first hand what we face as pilots and aircraft owners.
 
el con said:
Well Mr. NOAA representative.I guess I didn't disturb them as I received no phone calls, emails, texts from the wildlife and I couldn't have been that close as there are no dents in the airplane or holes in the windshield. As far as the people on the ground complaining have the Noaa give them each a paint ball gun so they can mark the planes as they fly by them the authorities can check the surrounding airports for colored paint splats and then issue tickets.
No doubt when we all are fitted with our soon to be ADS-B transponders we will automatically get our tickets via the mail.
Click to expand...


Now you've got us all dreaming of "sterile" P-51's running flat out on the deck.......over NOAA HQ. :D
 
dmccormack said:
I said "Alaska," not "Alaskaflyer."

You'll see in this table that Alaska now ranks in the top 5 in government dollars dispersed v taxes received (IOW, you got more than you gave):

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.html

I'm sure Alaska is a gorgeous place as is Montana and West Virgina, two states I know well which also rank high on the dollars from the feds list.

That doesn't change the fact that Fed government largesse is sustaining a disproportionate number of people in Alaska compared to, oh, let's say, Pennsylvania.
Click to expand...

I can't see that particular study on my mobile but I have always wondered if those studies also accounted for federal lease royalties (as offsetting the tax formula) as well as federal payments to local governments in lieu of property taxes (as augmenting it.) Depending on the answer the impact of those studies would certainly be blunted.
 
Last edited:
alaskaflyer said:
I can't see that particular study on my mobile but I have always wondered of those studies also accounted for federal lease royalties (as offsetting the tax formula) as well as federal payments to local governments in lieu of property taxes (as augmenting it.) Depending on the answer the impact of those studies would certainly be blunted.
Click to expand...

That aside how do Oregon and Washington rank in that study?
 
Anthony said:
Where did I attack you? I am sure you won't find "intelligent life", I am just a stupid pilot. ;)

It doesn't matter to me that your a government employee. I know we need government, and government employees. It only matters that you love GA and know first hand what we face as pilots and aircraft owners.
Click to expand...

I love you too, dear :)
 
Richard said:
Perhaps AOPA is trying to protect the privledges of pilots and those active in avaition. Maybe they did mischaracterize the issue. Please provide cite to support your contention.

Ask any pilot who looked down the barrel of the gun if the FAA is an enforcement agency. Perhaps being some kind of LEO yourself (that only means I know you are long time NPS but am unaware of your exact title in your employment) you are quibbling over terms but not context.

Heretofore, the NOAA has had jurisdiction over the navigable waters. We now read this as a broadening of powers to include the air. http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/news/2011/11/08_enf_priorities.htm

Ok, I understand now. Thank you for your explanation.

Oh yes, I do know some altitude advisories have been in effect for some years. Intentionally buzzing a pod of whales or willfull harrassment of sea otters is not to be confused with a 'bust' of 2,000 msl over a designated marine sanctuary.

EDIT TO ADD: IF you know something more than the average Joe, and I think you do, please share that information if allowed.
Click to expand...

This is purely my opinion but if you were to ask the NOAA employees drafting these regulations they would probably tell you "we aren't regulating airspace we are regulating pilot behavior which affects circumstances on the ground and since that has a nexus to our regulatory jurisdiction we certainly have the authority - indeed the responsibility- to do exactly that in order to protect the things Congress told us to protect, in various Acts of Congress including our enabling one." And they would be earnest in their saying so. To us it is de facto airspace regulation which pretty much everyone agrees is in the sole province of the FAA absent direct Congressional lawmaking. It will probably be up to a judge to decide, eventually, if someone challenges the rule or process in court.

^ that is all I was trying to say in my original post.
 
Last edited:
As mentioned, I fly in / around this area and plan to forever. It is beautiful. In another thread someone posted ideas for me to "track" my flight, not sure if this includes altitude, so perhaps if I do that will help me prove where I was etc. I was going to do it for "fun" (creates a cool picture using Google Earth) but now it sounds like one day it could be more of a CYA tool.

And thanks for thinking I am innocent. Doubt that will help (remember the old lady who got "pulled over" during a TFR?)
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
As mentioned, I fly in / around this area and plan to forever. It is beautiful. In another thread someone posted ideas for me to "track" my flight, not sure if this includes altitude, so perhaps if I do that will help me prove where I was etc. I was going to do it for "fun" (creates a cool picture using Google Earth) but now it sounds like one day it could be more of a CYA tool.

And thanks for thinking I am innocent. Doubt that will help (remember the old lady who got "pulled over" during a TFR?)
Click to expand...

Flightaware doesn't seem reliable for VFR. They only seem to occasionally pick me up if I file a flight plan and get flight following. I just flew to SBA and back and filed a flight plan both ways and had flight following the whole time and it only picked up the return flight. It is fun, though. It will graph your ground speed and altitude and does a map overlay of your route.
 
TedR3 said:
http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/article...-a-gamble.html[...]

What changed? The only thing that changed is that, if they can prove you entered the prohibited area, they no longer have to prove that wildlife was disturbed as a result of your violation.

No different really than a bust of Class B or an assigned altitude as I see it. If you did it, you're guilty. No need for them to prove safety was actually compromised.

The FAA is not your friend, and I'm not sure about the AOPA either.
Click to expand...
Well, that's a pretty significant change, because something that could previously have been very difficult for them to prove is now considered ceded to the prosecution! It's like trying to convict someone of murder without a corpse, but then changing the law so that the absence of a living person is presumptive that said person is dead! The prosecution's job just got a lot easier!
John221us said:
Flightaware doesn't seem reliable for VFR. They only seem to occasionally pick me up if I file a flight plan and get flight following. I just flew to SBA and back and filed a flight plan both ways and had flight following the whole time and it only picked up the return flight. It is fun, though. It will graph your ground speed and altitude and does a map overlay of your route.
Click to expand...
I don't think she was referring to FlightAware for her tracking. I think she was thinking about a GPS that she could have tracking her flight and then pull into Google Earth. At least that's what I would be thinking! I generally (at least for cross countries) fly with a 496 turned on. While I haven't tried pulling down the track information, I understand that it is stored there, including altitude.
 
gprellwitz said:
I don't think she was referring to FlightAware for her tracking. I think she was thinking about a GPS that she could have tracking her flight and then pull into Google Earth. At least that's what I would be thinking! I generally (at least for cross countries) fly with a 496 turned on. While I haven't tried pulling down the track information, I understand that it is stored there, including altitude.
Click to expand...

You are probably right. My 496 stays in the plane, so I have never tried it, but my Garmin running watches upload and let me overlay with Google maps, and other stuff.
 
gprellwitz said:
Well, that's a pretty significant change, because something that could previously have been very difficult for them to prove is now considered ceded to the prosecution! It's like trying to convict someone of murder without a corpse, but then changing the law so that the absence of a living person is presumptive that said person is dead! The prosecution's job just got a lot easier!

I don't think she was referring to FlightAware for her tracking. I think she was thinking about a GPS that she could have tracking her flight and then pull into Google Earth. At least that's what I would be thinking! I generally (at least for cross countries) fly with a 496 turned on. While I haven't tried pulling down the track information, I understand that it is stored there, including altitude.
Click to expand...

Actually there are free programs that do just that - they will allow you to render a three dimensional track in Google Earth. I used to do it with my 296 all the time.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Actually there are free programs that do just that - they will allow you to render a three dimensional track in Google Earth. I used to do it with my 296 all the time.
Click to expand...
Yes, I thought that there were; I just have not used any yet. I don't think that FlightAware provides that level of detail, especially on a VFR flight, where it is likely that you won't be tracked at all, and, if you are, it is limited to those areas in radar coverage.
 
schmookeeg said:
Normally I end up defending Cali in these debates, but today it is particularly difficult and I won't bother.

Los Angeles just passed a $1,000 fine for throwing a frisbee on a beach.

I thought it was an article from The Onion at first. :mad2:

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012...ine-for-throwing-football-frisbee-on-beaches/
Click to expand...

ODG... can't dig a hole deeper than a foot and a half either. This is just insanity. Is there a hunting season on those too stupid to live? Oh wait, it's CA, probably couldn't do it even with steel ammo.
 
You get what you vote for. My company tried to move me to CA four seperate times. I lived in San Fran for six months to do a project, and then they wanted me to stay there. I told them NO. Then they later tried to move me there again. I said NO. Then they tried to move me to LA twice. I said NO.

No freaking way.
 
schmookeeg said:
Normally I end up defending Cali in these debates, but today it is particularly difficult and I won't bother.

Los Angeles just passed a $1,000 fine for throwing a frisbee on a beach.

I thought it was an article from The Onion at first. :mad2:

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012...ine-for-throwing-football-frisbee-on-beaches/
Click to expand...

That stinks. I grew up in Orange County and practically lived at the beach during the summer. They have gradually added more and more rules. No smoking (I'm ok with this one), bon fires are gone, no alcohol and now no footballs, frisbee or digging holes. I guess it is just too crowded. Oddly, there is an exception for movie production companies to dig holes.:sad:
 
schmookeeg said:
Normally I end up defending Cali in these debates, but today it is particularly difficult and I won't bother.

Los Angeles just passed a $1,000 fine for throwing a frisbee on a beach.

I thought it was an article from The Onion at first. :mad2:

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012...ine-for-throwing-football-frisbee-on-beaches/
Click to expand...

"Officials warned that any activities that could potentially harm “any person or property on or near the beach” should not be allowed during the peak summer season."

Cool, no speedos or spandex. :)

Does this ordinance prohibit sunbathing? After all, that activity can definitely harm people.
 
Bob Noel said:
"Officials warned that any activities that could potentially harm “any person or property on or near the beach” should not be allowed during the peak summer season."

Cool, no speedos or spandex. :)

Does this ordinance prohibit sunbathing? After all, that activity can definitely harm people.
Click to expand...


They need to give them to the U.S. Park Service so then nobody can actually use them. :D
 
Anthony said:
You get what you vote for. My company tried to move me to CA four seperate times. I lived in San Fran for six months to do a project, and then they wanted me to stay there. I told them NO. Then they later tried to move me there again. I said NO. Then they tried to move me to LA twice. I said NO.

No freaking way.
Click to expand...

L.A., San Fran, Chicago, and NYC and "surrounding" areas of NJ are on my "YGBFKM" list of places I've been to that I'd never want to live in.

People get really screwed up in the head when you pack them in that dense... and I'm not just talking about voting record. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
L.A., San Fran, Chicago, and NYC and "surrounding" areas of NJ are on my "YGBFKM" list of places I've been to that I'd never want to live in.

People get really screwed up in the head when you pack them in that dense... and I'm not just talking about voting record. ;)
Click to expand...


That's pretty much my list also. Plus, add the Brady Campaign's top twenty-five states or so.
 
I would move to San Francisco in a minute. Does anyone know of a job?
 
Anthony said:
You get what you vote for. My company tried to move me to CA four seperate times. I lived in San Fran for six months to do a project, and then they wanted me to stay there. I told them NO. Then they later tried to move me there again. I said NO. Then they tried to move me to LA twice. I said NO.

No freaking way.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't want to live where you live.
 
Palmpilot said:
I wouldn't want to live where you live.
Click to expand...


Don't get me wrong. I love CA for everything it is, but I just can't live in such a restrictive, high tax place. It is a fantastic place to visit though.
 
Everskyward said:
I would move to San Francisco in a minute. Does anyone know of a job?
Click to expand...

Worked in the city for a year, commuting from the east bay. I think it is a nice place to visit, but did not appeal at all to me as a place to live.

My wife and I spent maybe 10 years in California - so glad to have moved out.
 
Anthony said:
Don't get me wrong. I love CA for everything it is, but I just can't live in such a restrictive, high tax place. It is a fantastic place to visit though.
Click to expand...

California is a very diverse state with many climates and areas to visit and live. I have lived in CA my whole life and visited many other states.

I currently live in a suburb of Sacramento (an hour to Lake Tahoe and skiing and Napa and an hour and half to the coast, driving, even faster flying). We have beaches, mountains, deserts and everything in between. I have beautiful forested hiking and camping spots less than a 1/2 hours drive from me in California. San Francisco is a thriving cosmopolitan city with world class arts and theater and is only an hour and half from me. I have lived in rural areas of California, too and also grew up in Orange County near the beach.

While California is not the most business friendly state, it has a lot going for it and those of us who live here have judged that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Also, paying a bit more in taxes or fees is tolerable, if you are making more money. I don't think my business (technology services) could thrive in the backwoods of Montana (nothing against Montana).

I would be willing to bet, the same is true of any place you might choose to live. There are going to be pluses and minuses and California has a lot of pluses.
 
Palmpilot said:
I wonder what the fine is for making a forced landing on the beach.
Click to expand...

During the time the law is in effect (Memorial Day to Labor Day) most beaches in california are very occupied, except at night (some exceptions to the North), especially the LA beaches affected by the law. Unless you are looking to plow across a few hundred people laying on towels, I don't think you will be doing any beach landings.
 
John221us said:
I would be willing to bet, the same is true of any place you might choose to live. There are going to be pluses and minuses...
Click to expand...

That has certainly been true of every place that I've lived.
 
John221us said:
During the time the law is in effect (Memorial Day to Labor Day) most beaches in california are very occupied, except at night (some exceptions to the North), especially the LA beaches affected by the law. Unless you are looking to plow across a few hundred people laying on towels, I don't think you will be doing any beach landings.
Click to expand...

I can certainly believe that most beaches in Southern California are very occupied, but most California beaches are not in Southern California. Aside from that quibble though, you have a good point, and perhaps that's the reasoning behind LA's football and frisbee rule.
 
Anthony said:
You get what you vote for. My company tried to move me to CA four seperate times. I lived in San Fran for six months to do a project, and then they wanted me to stay there. I told them NO. Then they later tried to move me there again. I said NO. Then they tried to move me to LA twice. I said NO.

No freaking way.
Click to expand...

Haters!
 
John221us said:
During the time the law is in effect (Memorial Day to Labor Day) most beaches in california are very occupied, except at night (some exceptions to the North), especially the LA beaches affected by the law. Unless you are looking to plow across a few hundred people laying on towels, I don't think you will be doing any beach landings.
Click to expand...
I disagree. Inshore of the berm the beach will be crowded. Ocean side of the berm it will be uncrowded and wet sand. Wet sand is the ideal place to set down. Anyone on the wet sand will be standing and it will be few since most people at the beach lie on their towels like stranded whales.

Even on beaches in SoCal there are uncrowded areas. They become visible when viewed from the air.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Haters!
Click to expand...
Spend some time outside of CA. Perhaps then you will see how CA is an anomaly. The only thing that keeps me in CA is the ocean. I tried living away from the ocean, no matter how big the lake or how plentiful the stream I must remain in touch with my oceanic roots.

Anyway, there are many beautiful places and wonderful people outside of CA. CA has become so f'd up. (I've lived in CA longer than Kimberly has been alive.)
 
chucky said:
Know any programing languages?
Click to expand...
Heck no, I'm a dumb pilot. :rofl:

azure said:
I would too, except it costs so much to live there that I wouldn't be able to afford to fly... :(
Click to expand...
I have a place to live already which I'll eventually need to either live in, rent, or sell. Otherwise I couldn't dream of affording it. I lived in the SF for about four years back in the 1970s but I have been going there regularly since childhood... and even more regularly now, so I know all the advantages and disadvantages. Over the past couple years it's really become my second home.
 
Richard said:
Anyway, there are many beautiful places and wonderful people outside of CA.
Click to expand...

This part I definitely agree with. I just don't get how some people think it's socially acceptable to bash other people's homes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top