Single Pilot IFR

Alexb2000 said:
Go easy on the little people, not all of us started this morning punching through a stack of 10 bricks or using a side of beef as a heavy bag. :)

Yes, autopilots can fail, so can engines, but pilots seems to fail FAR more frequently. Say you're on an arrival, low IMC, turbulence, rain, dark night, you've been up for over 18 hours. Then ATC decides to change your arrival, approach, and runway when you're 15 mins out. The frequency is firing like a machine gun and you need to get all of this right, reenter, navigate, rebrief, reback, etc., quickly and accurately. An autopilot is a great tool in that situation, doesn't mean you're a ***** for using it. Might even mean you're smart.
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See, that's the thing. I have no reason to have put myself in that situation to begin with. If I have been up for 18 hours I'm going to be tired before even cranking the engines, and would push the flight until, whenever it needs to be pushed to. It has nothing to do with flying making me exhausted, it's just from having been up that long. I will wait until the next day or two and start out fresh, fly fresh, and finish fresh.

There's a reason I don't go flying at 10pm after playing in a 13 hour softball tournament where the last 6 games are played with no breaks in between them. I'll leave at 10am the next morning.
 
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EdFred said:
See, that's the thing. I have no reason to have put myself in that situation to begin with. If I have been up for 18 hours I'm going to be tired before even cranking the engines, and would push the flight until, whenever it needs to be pushed to. It has nothing to do with flying making me exhausted, it's just from having been up that long. I will wait until the next day or two and start out fresh, fly fresh, and finish fresh.

There's a reason I don't go flying at 10pm after playing in a 13 hour softball tournament where the last 6 games are played with no breaks in between them. I'll leave at 10am the next morning.
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Whenever you can do that, no question it is the better thing to do. By the same token you could just wait until day vfr conditions also. I have an airplane for my convenience, that means I fly in the afternoon, night, IMC, in storms, at the end of a long day, or any other flyable conditions. Even flying a lot in the rockies, there are only a few days a year that I wouldn't fly.

The choices are never easy in flying. If I have to wait until perfect conditions I'll have to go back to the airlines or drive.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Whenever you can do that, no question it is the better thing to do. By the same token you could just wait until day vfr conditions also. I have an airplane for my convenience, that means I fly in the afternoon, night, IMC, in storms, at the end of a long day, or any other flyable conditions. Even flying a lot in the rockies, there are only a few days a year that I wouldn't fly.

The choices are never easy in flying. If I have to wait until perfect conditions I'll have to go back to the airlines or drive.
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Waiting for perfect conditions? Not remotely. But if it's vacation (which is going to be the reason 99% time I fly) I'm not going to go climb El Capitan and then leave for home the same day. The day to fly home (or there) is the day to fly. That's all that's planned for the start of that day. No cramming one extra day on the slopes, or on the charter boat, or 36 more holes of golf in the sun, and then go flying. I may fly, and then go tire myself out doing something else, but I'm not going to tire myself out and then go flying.
 
EdFred said:
Except it doesn't. I have never felt fatigued when flying, let alone exhausted. Putting an AP in the plane will put me to sleep. The only thing that keeps me awake when flying solo is flying the plane. It has nothing to do with being "manly" it is simply not being mediocre. Wallow if you want to, and keep the training wheels on your bicycle while you're at it.

Just because someone is better than you at something doesn't mean they are manly, it just means you suck as a pilot.
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EdFred said:
Yes really. If someone is going to hide behind a screen name, and come **** on me just because I'm better at something than he is, yeah, I will respond, just like I would if they said it to my face. But it's easy to hide and take pot shots behind anonymity.

None of them. As I said, just because you have a problem doing something, not everyone does. I chalk it up to suckage. Don't like it? Get better, or quit trying to tear anyone down who's better than you. It's OK to have shortcomings, I have them in other areas, and freely admit them. But not everyone has the same ones. Yeah, you think you're an awesome pilot and the gold standard, so anyone else has to have a hazardous attitude when they are better than you, because in your world no one can possible be better. Well they are. I am. And there's plenty out there who are better than me. See how easy that is?

Honestly I get more mentally drained from writing code than I do flying IFR. Why? Because I'm not that good at writing code and it's taxing. But I'm not going to say someone else is "manly" in a derogatory way because they write code better than I do, and they don't get a mental drain from doing it. I know where my shortcomings are, but flying single pilot IFR isn't one of them.
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EdFred, I have never flown with you, and you have never flown with me. Neither of us have killed ourselves flying so I guess we're both reasonably decent pilots. I find it troubling though that you suggest that me using an autopilot makes me suck as a pilot. Like a second pilot, a HUD, a glass cockpit, or even an attitude indicator, an autopilot is a resource on board that reduces pilot workload and increases safety when used appropriately.

Anyone who's flown with me knows I relish the opportunity to hand fly the plane. I'm the furthest thing away from being a slave to the autopilot. But I use it, stay proficient in its use, and teach others to do the same. Part of using an autopilot is identifying its modes of failure. Crosschecking instruments does not stop when using the autopilot.

As an instructor, I hope you do not take this approach with instrument students. If they have an autopilot installed, they need to be able to use it without being called a wimp. There's a reason the instrument PTS was amended to include AP use on the checkride.

Back to hazardous attitudes. I'll just post this one and let it speak for itself:

Macho: “I can do it.”Pilots who are always trying to prove that they are better than anyone else think, “I can do it—I'll show them.” Pilots with this type of attitude will try to prove themselves by taking risks in order to impress others. While this pattern is thought to be a male characteristic, women are equally susceptible.
 
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ChrisK said:
We've met in person. If I give you my home address do I have permission to **** on you? Sounds like a fun Saturday night.
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I guess Medina isn't too far from Cleveland, is it?
 
Brad Z said:
Macho: “I can do it.”Pilots who are always trying to prove that they are better than anyone else think, “I can do it—I'll show them.” Pilots with this type of attitude will try to prove themselves by taking risks in order to impress others. While this pattern is thought to be a male characteristic, women are equally susceptible
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Just because something is risk to to one person, doesn't mean it actually is. And who are you or I to judge on what is risky enough to be a HazAt? Some people will never go rock climbing, some will never get in a GA plane, some will never get in a 121 plane. Some people will never fly at night, or over water, or over trees, or any number of other situations. Just because someone else does, does not mean they have a hazardous attitude.
 
Brad Z said:
EdFred, I have never flown with you, and you have never flown with me. Neither of us have killed ourselves flying so I guess we're both reasonably decent pilots. I find it troubling though that you suggest that me using an autopilot makes me suck as a pilot. Like a second pilot, a HUD, a glass cockpit, or even an attitude indicator, an autopilot is a resource on board that reduces pilot workload and increases safety when used appropriately.

Anyone who's flown with me knows I relish the opportunity to hand fly the plane. I'm the furthest thing away from being a slave to the autopilot. But I use it, stay proficient in its use, and teach others to do the same. Part of using an autopilot is identifying its modes of failure. Crosschecking instruments does not stop when using the autopilot.

As an instructor, I hope you do not take this approach with instrument students. If they have an autopilot installed, they need to be able to use it without being called a wimp. There's a reason the instrument PTS was amended to include AP use on the checkride.

Back to hazardous attitudes. I'll just post this one and let it speak for itself:

Macho: “I can do it.”Pilots who are always trying to prove that they are better than anyone else think, “I can do it—I'll show them.” Pilots with this type of attitude will try to prove themselves by taking risks in order to impress others. While this pattern is thought to be a male characteristic, women are equally susceptible.
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Best post on this thread......

The anti AP rhetoric on this thread is puzzling. I can only conclude that those spewing it are either trolling, or not very experienced.

Autopilot is a tool that enhances safety in just about every aspect of it's use, particularly during single pilot (or even multi pilot) IFR.

FWIW, the hardest I've ever worked in my career was single pilot IFR in the NE corridor flying Chieftains (with APs) and other recips. A close second was flying J31s, 6-7 legs per day in the same environment, no AP, but there was another pilot.
 
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Slipkid65 said:
Best post on this thread......

The anti AP rhetoric on this thread is puzzling. I can only conclude that those spewing it are either trolling, or not very experienced.

Autopilot is a tool that enhances safety in just about every aspect of it's use, particularly during single pilot (or even multi pilot) IFR.

FWIW, the hardest I've ever worked in my career was single pilot IFR in the NE corridor flying Chieftains (with APs) and other recips. A close second was flying J31s, 6-7 legs per day in the same environment, no AP, but there was another pilot.
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No. When an autopilot is a no go item or a must have, it is tied directly to the ability and confidence of one's piloting ability. Why do you need the autopilot? Probably because your skills are not that good, or you don't believe them to be. In which case what happens when the autopilot craps out. Now you've got a pilot in the air that relies on the autopilot to keep him right side up in the clag because he doesn't have the skills to do so on his own. Anyone who needs an autopilot because they find flying "too fatiguing" is mediocre.

I'm not against autopilots, I'm against people that need them. Those are the unsafe ones. As soon as I hear "I will never fly IFR w/o an AP," that's a person I want to stay far away from.
 
EdFred said:
No. When an autopilot is a no go item or a must have, it is tied directly to the ability and confidence of one's piloting ability. Why do you need the autopilot? Probably because your skills are not that good, or you don't believe them to be. In which case what happens when the autopilot craps out. Now you've got a pilot in the air that relies on the autopilot to keep him right side up in the clag because he doesn't have the skills to do so on his own. Anyone who needs an autopilot is mediocre. I'm not against autopilots, I'm against people that need them. Those are the unsafe ones. As soon as I hear "I will never fly IFR w/o an AP," that's a person I want to stay far away from.
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Truly frightening.......
 
Slipkid65 said:
Truly frightening.......
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I know. People that absolutely need to have an AP in an airplane are truly frightening. And there's a ****-ton of them out there flying. At least some of them fly planes with BRS when they really **** up. Unfortunately by that point they've spawned and passed on their stupidity to the next generation.
 
EdFred said:
I'm not against autopilots, I'm against people that need them. Those are the unsafe ones. As soon as I hear "I will never fly IFR w/o an AP," that's a person I want to stay far away from.
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Yeah, I feel the same way about pilots who need nose wheels. :lol::lol:

Things devolve so quickly around here. A perfectly useful and engaging discussion turned into POA crap. :dunno:

Folks, this is how sites die.
 
Bill Watson said:
Yeah, I feel the same way about pilots who need nose wheels. :lol::lol:

Things devolve so quickly around here. A perfectly useful and engaging discussion turned into POA crap. :dunno:

Folks, this is how sites die.
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You know, I can actually appreciate that, and I have never flown a tail wheel aircraft. But I won't try and drag down a tail wheel pilot because they use their feet a lot more than I have to, nor will I declare them to have a hazardous attitude because they fly something a bit more challenging when the winds kick up.

Maybe I should start doing so. I'd need more anonymity though.

For the record if there was a 4 seat tail wheel low wing retract in the 250HP neighborhood, and price range for me, I'd be all over it.
 
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EdFred said:
I know. People that absolutely need to have an AP in an airplane are truly frightening. And there's a ****-ton of them out there flying. At least some of them fly planes with BRS when they really **** up. Unfortunately by that point they've spawned and passed on their stupidity to the next generation.
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Case closed....... :D
 
dell30rb said:
A/P is very nice when flying single pilot IFR. I flew a Swift with no autopilot to the bahamas and back in April. IFR with about an hour of flying in IMC on the return trip. It was a month before I felt like flying again!
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That reminds me of flying my 170 in IMC through the LA Basin with ancient WWII-era Artificial Horizon and HI in a shotgun panel with no A/P back before I had it properly rigged (it was very unstable). It was doable, but definitely tiring.
 
The last time I went shooting approaches under the hood with a CFII, he wanted me to fly an ILS as a coupled approach from downwind. I told him that wouldn't go over too well, my A/P doesn't have enough sensitivity to intercept a localizer from a random angle. This was quickly demonstrated to be true, and worse, since we were vectored in too close and had to intercept the G/S from above (meaning the A/P's G/S intercept feature was out of its design regime). Then after bidding ATC goodbye and landing for a potty break, we tried it again on our own, this time with me hand flying until about 30o from the localizer course, and well below the G/S. At that point I engaged the A/P and it worked like a charm.

All this to say that it's good to know how to use the A/P properly, but you also have to know its limitations. I related the story to my CFII of my first solo outing in hard IMC when I tried to fly an RNAV approach coupled from "downwind", and had to disengage it when it turned "base" at half standard rate and got me worried about a pilot deviation. Once established on the FAC, the thing is great and I would certainly use it if I was at the end of a long day and needed to shoot an approach to minimums.

Generally though, I use it on long cruise segments so that I can focus more on managing the engine, watching for signs of trouble, and to conserve my energy for the times when flying the plane requires my full attention. On proficiency flights, I hand fly 95% of the time as very little practice is required with the A/P.
 
Brad Z said:
A lot of manly pilots here who are too good to have autopilot. Hand flying in solid IFR is exhausting. Every pilot should be able to do it of course, but use of autopilot reduces workload and reduces accumulated fatigue, increasing altertness and improving safety for the approach phase of the flight.
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^^^^^This.

Cheers.
 
:rolleyes2:......but
What did Ya'll think of the Dick Collins video?
:rolleyes2:










:rolleyes2:
He said 36 pilots buy it flying SPIFR and THAT is riskier than necessary. No mention of AP (where is she anyway)
:popcorn:
 
EdFred said:
I know. People that absolutely need to have an AP in an airplane are truly frightening.
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get ready to be scared then. I cancelled a flight up to Sydney last sunday because the A/P was out on the king air. No way am I going into that place at rush hour without being able to hand the plane to george for a few minutes to take a note or do a chore.
 
JHW said:
get ready to be scared then. I cancelled a flight up to Sydney last sunday because the A/P was out on the king air. No way am I going into that place at rush hour without being able to hand the plane to george for a few minutes to take a note or do a chore.
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Yeah, but we already knew you were a wimp. You need two engines, turbines these days, and it's not like you ever did any hard flying or anything.
 
JHW said:
get ready to be scared then. I cancelled a flight up to Sydney last sunday because the A/P was out on the king air. No way am I going into that place at rush hour without being able to hand the plane to george for a few minutes to take a note or do a chore.
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If the autopilot would'a crapped out enroute would you have turned around and went back home?
 
I've flown single pilot IFR and married pilot IFR. Didn't see much difference other than inflight snack service on the latter.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
If the autopilot would'a crapped out enroute would you have turned around and went back home?
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of course not. But that's a far cry from sitting in my living room with the option to do something else the next day rather than make that trip.
 
LDJones said:
I've flown single pilot IFR and married pilot IFR. Didn't see much difference other than inflight snack service on the latter.
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Dammit. I'm always the one providing beverage service. I've been had!
 
JHW said:
......... No way am I going into that place at rush hour without being able to hand the plane to george for a few minutes to take a note or do a chore.
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......then I guess you were overstating the case a bit here?
 
Bill Watson said:
Things devolve so quickly around here. A perfectly useful and engaging discussion turned into POA crap. :dunno:

Folks, this is how sites die.
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:yeahthat:

Seen it happen several times with message boards where a few of the "regulars" chased off any new members and scared away the more casual visitors, so all of a sudden there were no new threads being started, and those that did post would usually be met with something like "lol this question has been asked before, learn to use the search box." Would hate to see that happen here.

If you don't want to have a civil discussion about aviation, what's the point of being on the site in the first place?
 
peerlesscowboy said:
......then I guess you were overstating the case a bit here?
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I see it the same as if your destination is reporting zero/zero. I wouldn't depart home with that weather forecast. But if it unexpectedly moves in while enroute, I'd probably go ahead and have a look in case I might get in.
 
JHW said:
I see it the same as if your destination is reporting zero/zero. I wouldn't depart home with that weather forecast. But if it unexpectedly moves in while enroute, I'd probably go ahead and have a look in case I might get in.
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Sounds to me more like something you see as a safety issue that you'd be willing to compromise if you had enough invested.......aka "get-there-itis?
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Sounds to me more like something you see as a safety issue that you'd be willing to compromise if you had enough invested.......aka "get-there-itis?
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we all have our own line of reasoning when it comes to go-no go decisions. You can assign a cutsie name to my reasoning if you want, but it doesn't make your view any more right or wrong then mine and vice versa.

I view a given criteria differently if it's something that happens enroute vs something that happens the day before departure. Maybe you'd land immediately if anything wrong happens along the way, and that's ok.
 
JHW said:
we all have our own line of reasoning when it comes to go-no go decisions. You can assign a cutsie name to my reasoning if you want, but it doesn't make your view any more right or wrong then mine and vice versa.

I view a given criteria differently if it's something that happens enroute vs something that happens the day before departure. Maybe you'd land immediately if anything wrong happens along the way, and that's ok.
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So then, there's "No way you'd go into that place at rush hour ...(with an inoperative autopilot)" ...unless you're already invested in getting in to Sydney.
 
Ed,
While I agree that pilots who "absolutely have to have the autopilot in order to fly in IMC" might be very rusty, not too good in IMC, and quite probably a danger to themselves and others, I see no reason to throw insults at people.

In the 135 world, if the autopilot is inoperative, SPIFR flight is not permitted. I guess the FAA sees the AP as an effective tool for keeping fatigue at bay, or at least not to add to it.

Or, perhaps, do all of us 135 pilots suck as well? We have to fly in all kinds of weather, at any time of the day or night, on schedules set by others. An autopilot should not be necessary, but it does allow easier reconfiguring, leaning, and new clearance rewrites.
 
EdFred said:
No. When an autopilot is a no go item or a must have, it is tied directly to the ability and confidence of one's piloting ability. Why do you need the autopilot? Probably because your skills are not that good, or you don't believe them to be. In which case what happens when the autopilot craps out. Now you've got a pilot in the air that relies on the autopilot to keep him right side up in the clag because he doesn't have the skills to do so on his own. Anyone who needs an autopilot because they find flying "too fatiguing" is mediocre.

I'm not against autopilots, I'm against people that need them. Those are the unsafe ones. As soon as I hear "I will never fly IFR w/o an AP," that's a person I want to stay far away from.
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It's been many years since I flew a Lear, but if memory serves the autopilot was a no-go item. You are tarring a lot of people with that brush.

Bob Gardner
 
By now the OP is probably annoyed that the thread had drifted completely off the subject, which relates to the safety of single pilot IFR. Just in case the message has been lost in the conversation, single pilot IFR can be conducted safely if the pilot is current and can fly to standards. Risk in a small single engine piston a/c can be additionally reduced by using IFR GPS navigation, inflight weather, and an autopilot. I've flown IFR for 25 years, before any of these things were available or affordable. Can you do without? Yes. We all did it that way for a number of years. Would I choose to do without these aids today? Not really. That's assuming more risk and less margin than necessary for me. The modern way is wayyyyyyyy better. You dont get bonus points for doing without. Others may be comfortable assuming more risk. I'll use whatever technology is available to make every IFR trip as safe and comfortable as possible. If everything crumps, including the vacuum pump, I would have no problem coping and reaching a safe conclusion.

My personal preference is to use the AP enroute, the hand fly the approach. The (rate-based) AP is just way too busy on final approach. A real pilot is a little smoother, even if the AP does a reasonable job tracking. I think blaming pilots who use autopilots as incompetent is rather categorical, extreme, and totally unjustified. And the OP should know that an AP can reduce single-pilot IFR fatigue and increase margin of safety.

That's my opinion. YMMV. And that's OK.

Cheers.
 
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