Single engine complex operations.

NJP_MAN

NJP_MAN

Pattern Altitude
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Shawn
I spend the majority of my days at airports due to work activities. I am constantly watching airplanes take off and land because I still get that feeling (you know the feeling) of watching a plane leave or return to earth's surface. I have to say the majority of single complex airplane departures go like this

-start the take off roll
-airspeed alive then rotate
-10-15 ft above the runway surface, gear up
-4-6,000 feet of usable runway available

Do these pilots forget the whole gear up after there is no more usable runway remaining thing they learned in the complex endorsement? I have to say it is 80%+ of the time it goes like this. Do you see this often? I understand that during some short field scenarios, gear up as soon as positive rate is established might be protocol for certain aircraft. However, these are planes that are not showing the tell tale signs of short field exercises (flaps and the initial pitch to clear 50 ft obstacle then pitch to Vy). This and changing lanes without signaling while driving drive me bananas. Any thoughts?
 
If I have a catastrophic engine failure just after lift-off and land on the remaining runway with the wheels down, will my insurance policy repair my engine?
 
Challenged said:
If I have a catastrophic engine failure just after lift-off and land on the remaining runway with the wheels down, will my insurance policy repair my engine?
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Interesting thought process....

Break

Is there any difference in injury probability in either scenario?
 
It doesn't go like that for me, I'd barely get off the ground and it would be extremely dangerous...

For me it's:

1. Maximum Power
2. At rotation speed (not airspeed alive) rotate.
3. At positive rate of climb (not any particular altitude) gear up

It matters not if this is a 1200' strip or 11,000'. Dragging the thing into the air with the gear hanging out outweighs the idea of having it conveniently down if the engine has failed. I've had engine failures on takeoff. The outcomes were only as good as they were because the gear was up and hence I had close to 1000' of altitude.
 
As in most things, there's a judgment call there. What may be useable to you might be deemed something different by someone else. But 10' with 6,000' available would be a bit early by most counts....but ultimately it's the PIC's call.
 
Gear practices vary by aircraft, as do recommendations in the POH. Some gear are very slow [Cessna, Beech], some are very fast [Mooney];, some create lots of drag during movement [Cessna], some don't; some are manual and must be swung by hand.

I typically raise mine once I am safely airborne and climbing, usually by treetop level. Being based on a 3000' field with trees at both ends encourages me to raise them early, as the trees are nice and tall and still growing, plus there's no runway left to land on by the time I'm treetop high.

Forgot to raise the gear once on an IFR departure in Florida, couldn't figure out why the durn plane would barely climb ~200 fpm at Vy. Raised gear and things really improved! Distractions happen, and the immediate left turn before reaching the tower distracted me, to say nothing of changing frequencies, radar vectors, 500' ceilings, etc.

The question to ask yourself is NOT, "why are these foolish people wasting all of the runway in front of them by raising the gear so soon," but rather, "why are they raising their gear once safely airborne and climbing, and what does their POH say about it?"

Here is a quote from my Owner's Manual:

Retract the landing gear only when safely airborne and in good control. Retract the flaps when the aircraft has cleared all obstacles and has gained an indicated airspeed of about 80 to 90 MPH. [FYI: it also says to rotate at 65 to 75 MPH, so that's not much later.]

Personally, I'll follow the factory instructions, not the What-If scenarios that someone has since dreamed up and happens in the whole country just a handful of times per year.
 
Challenged said:
If I have a catastrophic engine failure just after lift-off and land on the remaining runway with the wheels down, will my insurance policy repair my engine?
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Depends entirely on your policy and carrier. If you have Avemco, chances are they will fix the engine if you land on the wheels. If you land on the belly, with most piston singles, chances are they'll write the airplane off.
 
I fly both singles and twins. In the twin, I'm pulling the wheels up as soon as I have positive rate. I keep the gear down in the single until no useful runway is remaining. I have had a partial engine failure departing once in a single at around 50'AGL. Having the gear down made the difference in safely getting the airplane back down with no bent metal, insurance company or FAA involvement.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Depends entirely on your policy and carrier. If you have Avemco, chances are they will fix the engine if you land on the wheels. If you land on the belly, with most piston singles, chances are they'll write the airplane off.
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Really, Avemco will fix your engine if you have an engine failure? No wonder they're so expensive. Insurance typically covers the damages from the resulting landing in the case of an engine failure, but the engine damage wasn't caused by the accident. The closest I got was that in the resulting running off the runway after making the "impossible" turn back, I struck the edge of the pavement with the prop tip (minor scuff). I got the insurer to do the tear down as recommended by lycoming and to overhaul the prop, but he blown cylinder which started the whole sequence was still mine to deal with.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I fly both singles and twins. In the twin, I'm pulling the wheels up as soon as I have positive rate. I keep the gear down in the single until no useful runway is remaining. I have had a partial engine failure departing once in a single at around 50'AGL. Having the gear down made the difference in safely getting the airplane back down with no bent metal, insurance company or FAA involvement.
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That ^^^^^
 
I have a johnson bar in my plane, and I can't physically raise the gear once I build up a lot of speed. I typically raise my gear shortly after rotation and a positive rate of climb has started. Keeping the gear down creates a lot of drag in a mooney.
 
My arrow doesn't climb well with the gear down, so I pull the gear up as soon as I have positive rate. I understand the though process of leaving it down till no more usable runway, but the gear comes down quick if I need it and if it doesn't come down in time, its well insured.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Do these pilots forget the whole gear up after there is no more usable runway remaining thing they learned in the complex endorsement? I have to say it is 80%+ of the time it goes like this.
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Its a matter of personal preference. I discussed this with several CFI's and our local DPE. As long as you get a good positive rate established before retracting the gear, nothing wrong with retracting it 15 feet above the runway.

Some aircraft (Swift) have a low gear retraction speed. That plane has been STC'd with a bigger engine and a full power climb at the gear speed of 80mph feels like you're hanging it off the prop.
 
flyingron said:
It doesn't go like that for me, I'd barely get off the ground and it would be extremely dangerous...

For me it's:

1. Maximum Power
2. At rotation speed (not airspeed alive) rotate.
3. At positive rate of climb (not any particular altitude) gear up

It matters not if this is a 1200' strip or 11,000'. Dragging the thing into the air with the gear hanging out outweighs the idea of having it conveniently down if the engine has failed. I've had engine failures on takeoff. The outcomes were only as good as they were because the gear was up and hence I had close to 1000' of altitude.
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Zactly the same for me.

If I have a catastrophic failure that says I'm coming back to Earth on the TO roll after positive rate, I want the gear stowed so the braking action of the fuselage on the ground brings me to a serious halt. If I have a non-catastrophic event on TO, having the gear down doesn't do me any good in terms of glide profile. With it stowed, maybe I can make a turn, or a reversal, but sure as heck the plane will react better with the wheels put away. Gear down for landing and take off. Gear up for crashing.
 
Arrow115 said:
My arrow doesn't climb well with the gear down, so I pull the gear up as soon as I have positive rate. I understand the though process of leaving it down till no more usable runway, but the gear comes down quick if I need it and if it doesn't come down in time, its well insured.
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Yeah it's a judgement call, over flat land leaving the gear up on a long runway is fine, but you are sacrificing altitude to do that. In the mountains? I want to climb as soon and as quickly as possible.

Again it depends on the plane and situation.
 
flyingron said:
Really, Avemco will fix your engine if you have an engine failure? No wonder they're so expensive.
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Yes. When I experienced the magneto gear tooth failure that sent metal throughout my engine in the 170, they covered the whole removal, tear down, cleaning, re-assembly and reinstallation minus the deductible. I was able to get the plane safely on the ground with no damage before the engine quit. The appraiser explained to me that Avemco covered the whole engine minus the accessories. In my case I did have to pay for the repairs to the Mag.
 
Good insights here. I am seeing some of the benefits for getiing the gear up right away. I like to ask the community because it is a good learning opportunity. Thanks everyone.
 
This board has also helped me confirm stuff I was doing anyway as correct. My mooney climbs much better with gear up, so "positive rate, gear up" even on a 10500ft runway. Made sense to me to get altitude as soon as possible.
 
Mistake Not... said:
This board has also helped me confirm stuff I was doing anyway as correct. My mooney climbs much better with gear up, so "positive rate, gear up" even on a 10500ft runway. Made sense to me to get altitude as soon as possible.
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I must say that I see many Mooneys do this, so it's good to shed some light on this and next time I see it done I will know why. I guess if you can climb fast enough, then it won't be long at all before the useable runway is exhausted. Additionally, more altitude would make the airport a viable option sooner as opposed to later in the event of partial or total power plant failure. Thanks again for the insight.
 
Not only Mooneys do this, a lot of pilots do this in various aircraft. Gear down creates big time drag. If you've flown a certain model a lot, your well aware when it's flying well and don't even look at the air speed, You get the gear up as quickly as possible to gain speed and altitude quickly. As mentioned, the mooney is a real hog until the gear comes up.
 
rbridges said:
I have a johnson bar in my plane, and I can't physically raise the gear once I build up a lot of speed. I typically raise my gear shortly after rotation and a positive rate of climb has started. Keeping the gear down creates a lot of drag in a mooney.
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I completed my m20c checkout last night! Above 80mph that gear IS impossible to retract.

Also, with a manual gear you can drop it down in a couple seconds.
 
Mistake Not... said:
This board has also helped me confirm stuff I was doing anyway as correct. My mooney climbs much better with gear up, so "positive rate, gear up" even on a 10500ft runway. Made sense to me to get altitude as soon as possible.
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Until the day your engine hiccups or a gust hits you, and you leave prop gouges in the runway (or worse). But it's your plane and your insurance rates that go up and your ticket being reexamined if that happens, so do as you please.
 
I think I can fairly safely say that I don't put my gear up faster than it will come back down if the engine takes a crap.
 
Ron Levy said:
Until the day your engine hiccups or a gust hits you, and you leave prop gouges in the runway (or worse). But it's your plane and your insurance rates that go up and your ticket being reexamined if that happens, so do as you please.
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Ok. I just read what I wrote. And then read what you wrote. Connect the dots for me. How in the heck do you get from where I was to where you are? Did your account get hacked?
 
Mistake Not... said:
Ok. I just read what I wrote. And then read what you wrote. Connect the dots for me. How in the heck do you get from where I was to where you are?
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From decades of watching light single engine airplanes like your Mooney lift off (i.e., achieve a positive rate of climb) and then settle back on the runway due to any number of reasons. If that happens in your Mooney and you started the gear up at the first positive rate of climb indication, you are going to have a very short and unhappy flight, probably followed by an equally unhappy but much longer meeting with the FAA and a significant rate increase on your next insurance renewal.
Did your account get hacked?
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No.
 
Mistake Not... said:
Ok. I just read what I wrote. And then read what you wrote. Connect the dots for me. How in the heck do you get from where I was to where you are? Did your account get hacked?
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Ron Levy has a certain view of the world based on his interpretation of various rules, and if you dare to have a differing viewpoint he flies into a rage. :idea: OCD probably.
 
Yes, ron. That's exactly what I do. The moment the VSI comes off a zero indication, I slam the gear up. sheesh.

I normally get 600fpm, so in the 8-10 seconds it takes me to rotate, establish a climb and get my hand on the gear switch, I'm nearly 100ft off the runway. Or maybe a little higher. And while we can quibble about the exact meaning of "positive rate, gear up", what I intended was "no preset height above ground, but sooner rather than later."

It's not your advice I object to. You're an awesome resource. It's the sarcastic tone and assumption of wrong doing that ****es me off.
 
Well you have to ask yourself. Would I rather be at 400' at the end of a 5000' runway when the engine crimps or 1000' half way down when the engine crumps. I'll take the latter and less tin will be damaged I am sure.
 
Insane said:
Ron Levy has a certain view of the world based on his interpretation of various rules, and if you dare to have a differing viewpoint he flies into a rage. :idea: OCD probably.
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Ron does have a unique viewpoint based on his personality and experiences. It is no secret that I don't always agree with everything Ron puts out, but I got to say even his posts that I disagree with, I value more than some of the stuff you've been posting recently.

Stick around. You might learn something. I know I have.
 
Do the math sometime.

Standard takeoff over a 50 foot obstacle, then 5 seconds of reaction time at climb sped to recognize and respond to an engine issue, them a landing to a full stop over a 50 foot obstacle. Add all of that up and see what the number is. Then realize that this is perfect case scenario.

Often "out of useable runway" is roughly 50 feet. I watch people every day leave the gear down until they are over the end of the runway and it is a false security. Get the rollers up as soon as you can't safely land again. In a Hornet, the gear comes up the instant we are off the ground indicated my weight off wheels, because we are out of useable runway at liftoff. In my Lancair I'll raise the gear as soon as a positive rate is established on a runway less than 5000 feet, because I need 2500 feet to land the thing from 50 feet. Leaving the gear down longer than that is a waste of performance.
 
Norman said:
Disagree with that. I made a good living repairing bellies from gear-ups.
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Bet that was just for a basic gear up.

The discussion I was commenting on involved an engine failure WITH a resulting gear up. In most of the GA fleet if you have up replace the engine AND repair gear up damage, you are looking at more than the hull is worth.
 
RhinoDrvr said:
Often "out of useable runway" is roughly 50 feet. I watch people every day leave the gear down until they are over the end of the runway and it is a false security. Get the rollers up as soon as you can't safely land again. In a Hornet, the gear comes up the instant we are off the ground indicated my weight off wheels, because we are out of useable runway at liftoff. In my Lancair I'll raise the gear as soon as a positive rate is established on a runway less than 5000 feet, because I need 2500 feet to land the thing from 50 feet. Leaving the gear down longer than that is a waste of performance.
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Totally agree with this. I see way too many people (including the CFI that did my original complex endorsement) confuse no usable runway with no runway and don't pull them up until they reach the end.

For most GA runways, 50' AGL is probably about right.
 
50' is about treetop level, and generally just a few seconds. In gusty conditions, strong crosswinds, etc., I generally wait a couple of seconds longer to verify "in good control" and that the positive rate isn't just temporary. Still happens around treetop level though . . .
 
here also. I'm not often on Ron's page but in this case I am. I've experienced lots of times of losing altitude and settling onto or near the runway after lifting off. heck, in the pawnee I often have 3 or 4 T&G's on every takeoff.

In my beechcraft I leave those wheels down until I'm 3-4 windspans above the runway, enough that leaving ground effect plus wind shift over the hills isn't going to put me anywhere near the ground.
 
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