Simplicate and add lightness

[Pilawt]

It's a long story, but we're toying with the idea of replacing our beloved Bonanza with a Citabria or the like. The Bo has been reliable and more economical than we'd expected for this class of airplane. But the notion of fun flying in the local area, with the fewest possible hinges, bushings, valves, electric motors, pumps, bearings, seals and moving parts, has a certain charm at this stage of life. Posts by folks here like Diana, dbahn and NC19143 have been inspirational.

So we may be embarking on a new journey here. We realize that we'd be giving up the long trips, but it seems there may be something else of value to be gained. No, owning two airplanes isn't in the cards, nor are there any likely rentals available in the immediate area.

If anyone has gone through a similar downsizing, I'd be interested to hear from you.

 

[Pegasus]

That thought has crossed my mind also. We usually take only 1 or 2 long trips a year but just can't give up the speed and range of the Comanche. Sure would like to have something like a J3 or Champ for the 100 dollar pancake or burger local trip. For now we will keep what we have. Tough choices we have to make.

 

[tonycondon]

no need to give up long trips Diana flew here Citabria all around the eastern half of the country. I just did 650 nautical miles or so in my clubs this weekend.

I don't know that I'd want to make it a regular traveling machine, but it is capable if you need to go somewhere.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I traded my old Lance for a factory new 7GCAA in 2001. Guess what? Now I have another old Lance.

I enjoyed the heck out of it, but what happened in my case is that the joy of that simple fun flying wore off after a couple of years and a couple hundred hours, and I found myself going flying simply to run the airplane. And those time when I needed to get somewhere but either weather or load would not allow the Citabria to go started adding up. I did take it on a few 1000 nm round trips.

Diana has made it work for a long time. However, I could not.

Add to that the new production Citabrias have some ... shortcuts ... in the hardware area that make me reluctant to recommend them as a long term investment.

 

[bbchien]

I traded my old Lance for a factory new 7GCAA in 2001. Guess what? Now I have another old Lance.

Diana has made it work for a long time. However, I could not.

That is because you have a nonpilot spouse and 3 kids, Ken. Diana has a CFI - Tom and two airplanes at her disposal.

Add to that the new production Citabrias have some ... shortcuts ... in the hardware area that make me reluctant to recommend them as a long term investment.

I too have noticed that....

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I too have noticed that....

What shortcuts? And are the new Decathlons subject to the same "issues"? My FBO has a 2007 Decathlon on the line I want to get checked out in.

 

[bbchien]

Well, go look at the door hardware, for one. Look at the release hardware, for two.

What were they thinking?

 

[Ken Ibold]

ACA hardware:

1) Look at the hardware on the airplane. Now go look at the kitchen cabinetry at Home Depot. You will see a lot of the same parts.

2) Look at the attached photo. Airplane is 3 weeks old at this point. The fitting had no coating at all, just bare metal.

3) The paint system has had a number of notable failures, including paint cracks along tape lines. They have reformulated a number of times. In my vintage, the problem appeared to be an incompatibility between the tape adhesive and the primer coat. When I lost a wing in 04 and had it replaced with a new wing, the tape itself was no longer being used.

4) My interior was falling apart after less than 5 years, always hangared. The adhesive attaching the side panel vinly to the side panels themselves was horrible. The batting under the glareshield and on the sidepanels under the panel was disintegrating.

Complain to the factory, and everything is blamed on "the EPA."

 

[TangoWhiskey]

ACA hardware:

2) Look at the attached photo. Airplane is 3 weeks old at this point. The fitting had no coating at all, just bare metal.

Wow, that's unacceptable. I'm not one for the "sue the manufacturer" tide, but if someone had a brake or fuel system failure (that looked like a brake line to me) and hurt the airplane, themselves, or others, I'd think they'd have a case.

3 weeks old and already corroded that bad?! I can't see how that would pass an annual... how can it pass certification??

 

[Ken Ibold]

Wow, that's unacceptable. I'm not one for the "sue the manufacturer" tide, but if someone had a brake or fuel system failure (that looked like a brake line to me) and hurt the airplane, themselves, or others, I'd think they'd have a case.

That is indeed a brake line, and the repair under warrantee consisted of cleaning off the corrosion and spraying with ospho.

 

[docmirror]

Jeff! Say it ain' so

Well, I haven't downsized like you are talking about, I have spent many, many hours in the Citabria since 1977. I can honestly say - it is not well suited to distance travel. When I was single, I used to think it'd be cool to take the plane on business trips. It was not cool. So, you already know that because you're changing your mission too.

I used to have a stressful job, after work every week I'd go out to the airport and hop in then go do some acro for an hour. It really took the edge off, and was always fun, because of the challenge. Now, if I didn't have an acro plane, and just went to bore some holes, I can't see how much fun that would be unless you just like getting in the air, and floating around.

Mx comparison between my old Bo, and the Citabria wasn't much of the savings in time or complexity that I thought. The Bo is a rugged, well designed and built plane. So is the old Citabria, but it is still fabric covered and at least when I flew it acro and banner/glider tow, the mx was pretty much the same in time and cost as the Bo.

There is savings to be had if you limit your acro, and don't tow stuff like I did, but I don't think it will be as much as you are expecting. What will be better is the dispatch %. Just about anything that will cause the plane not to fly can be fixed quickly(relatively), and usually less expensive.

Just remember, for you and a a friend and a toothbrush you can go around 100-110MPH in the Citabria, and stop every 3-ish hours for gas. By then, you'll really want to get on the ground in the calm, quiet FBO for a while. the Citabria is cold inside except for your left sole, which will be crispy if you use the heater. The plane is noisy, and not very comfortable, although I was usually sitting on a parachute which makes a diff.

 

[Diana]

the Citabria is cold inside except for your left sole, which will be crispy if you use the heater.

I must have a better heater than you do.

You can still go on long trips and take stuff. I fly it to OSH every year and take lots of stuff and camp under the wing, and usually bring my husband too.

Bill Cloughley flew his from the east coast to Gaston's last year and then went on to follow the Oregon trail to the west coast. Here's his web site about that trip:

http://www.pilotbill.com/OregonTrail/OT-PreFlight.html

One of the Citabria forum guys just left home a few days ago for a trip around the country. I've attached a map of his planned stops.

People fly to Alaska and back in Citabrias. We made it as far as Fort Nelson and had to come back for several reasons.

If you want to take long trips, you just need to allow yourself plenty of time if you plan to fly a Citabria.

Flying a Citabria is more fun than flying a Bonanza, but my definition of fun might be different than than everyone else's.

 

[docmirror]

I must have a better heater than you do.

You can still go on long trips and take stuff. I fly it to OSH every year and take lots of stuff and camp under the wing, and usually bring my husband too.

..........................

Flying a Citabria is more fun than flying a Bonanza, but my definition of fun might be different than than everyone else's.

I had a 1971 7KCAB, and the heater was worthless except to burn the shoe off your left foot. Now Jeff is in the PNW, where it can get pretty cold and humid. Trust me take a jacket, gloves, and a nice wool hat.

I didn't know you had so many hours in a Bonanza. They are a delight to fly, and pretty easy on the pax long distances(comparitively speaking, it's no Benz.). Howver, I've never done a hammerhead or snap roll in the B35.

 

[Diana]

I didn't know you had so many hours in a Bonanza.

How many does it take to know if it feels fun? I'm trying to figure out whether you are being condescending with me or not.

 

[docmirror]

I am being condescending, that's what the sarcasm icon was for. AFAIK, you have thousands of hours in the Bonanza, and are familiar with the flight characteristics. since you took a few shots at my current steed, I got defensive. I do have a fair number of hours in a Citabria(enough to know where the name originates), and in comparison to the Bo, I would say it's less than stellar in the distance trip category. However, it is great fun in the upside-down category.

 

[supercub185]

It's a long story, but we're toying with the idea of replacing our beloved Bonanza with a Citabria or the like. The Bo has been reliable and more economical than we'd expected for this class of airplane. But the notion of fun flying in the local area, with the fewest possible hinges, bushings, valves, electric motors, pumps, bearings, seals and moving parts, has a certain charm at this stage of life. Posts by folks here like Diana, dbahn and NC19143 have been inspirational.

So we may be embarking on a new journey here. We realize that we'd be giving up the long trips, but it seems there may be something else of value to be gained. No, owning two airplanes isn't in the cards, nor are there any likely rentals available in the immediate area.

If anyone has gone through a similar downsizing, I'd be interested to hear from you.

In your part of the country a tailwheel with big tires would be lotsa fun.If i were doing lotsa 1000 mile cross country's i would stick with the bo,if i did 100 to 300 mile jaunts a tailwheel would be hard to beat.There is a great deal od camaraderie out that way with grass flyins and cub,champ,citabria type people.I think you will enjoy it.I have a friend that owns a large aviation company.Several jets,new plane dealer as well.His 2 personal planes are an old cub and a 185.

 

[NC Pilot]

Any thoughts of a mid point like a Cessna 180, 185, Tiger, Cheetah, etc. that would be fun to fly locally, but have enough speed for some longer trips?

 

[supercub185]

Any thoughts of a mid point like a Cessna 180, 185, Tiger, Cheetah, etc. that would be fun to fly locally, but have enough speed for some longer trips?

I find the 185 an amazing plane.Mine has robertson stol and you can get in a real tight field.It takesoff real well also.The speed is very respectable as well.Usefull load is as good as it gets in this type of plane.The drawback is the big cylinder 6 chews up lot's of fuel and the initial purchase price.The price is driven by their utility i beleive.The cherokee six and the 185 do lot's of work in lot's of bad places.Finding a good one is getting harder all the time.

 

[Pilawt]

In your part of the country a tailwheel with big tires would be lotsa fun.

That's what I'm thinkin'. The A&P/AI who runs the FBO here owns an old C-180 and a fat-tire PA-12. He knows tube-and-fabric airplanes well so I know I would get good maintenance.

If i were doing lotsa 1000 mile cross country's i would stick with the bo,if i did 100 to 300 mile jaunts a tailwheel would be hard to beat.

We bought the Bo specifically for the 1000 NM (each way) x-c's to see the grandkids in PHX. But now each round trip costs about $700 in fuel alone for the two of us, on a route where the airlines charge $200-250 per person RT. On a long trip like that the Bo doesn't use much more fuel than our previous airplane, a 160-hp Grumman Cheetah. So whatever airplane we own, economics will probably transition us to shorter trips and/or local stooging around.

Any thoughts of a mid point like a Cessna 180, 185, Tiger, Cheetah, etc. that would be fun to fly locally, but have enough speed for some longer trips?

We owned the Cheetah for four years immediately before buying the Bo, and loved it. That's a possibility, but the tandem tailwheel idea sounds intriguing ... at least for now.

Thanks for the input, everybody. Stay tuned.

 

[Cheetah_707p]

I have been actually thinking of what my mission really is? I own a great Cheetah, but I do love flying the Citabria and Decathlon. My flights are usually only me and within 300 nm of home and I would see no issues taking either on that distance, nor would I flinch to take either from MYF to OSH! What a blast that would be!

Diana better never invite me to her house for a visit - she would be short a plane when I left

Since I don't fly for a living the journey for me is sometimes better then the destination