Simple Flight Planning / ATC Procedure Question

[Flyer922]

Hey PoA,

I'm new to the board so I apologize if this information is available in another thread. I recently got my PPL so I'm extra thorough and careful when going to new airports and going on new flights. I like to think ahead to every part of the flight and plan out any controller I may need to talk to and make sure my flight plan makes sense and I'm not unsure about anything.

With that said I'm looking to fly from FRG to N45 (Kobelt Airport). I plan to go FRG - CMK - N45. Right now I'm planning to avoid the SWF and POU Class D through a narrow space between the two but is this necessary? Should I just call SWF tower and req. permission to transition to N45 even though I likely would only cross over the upper area of the D? Same goes for the return flight; should I contact SWF right after takeoff? There's only a few miles from the runway to the class D. Also, hypothetically speaking, if those few miles didn't exist between N45 and the Class D, would you call up the Class D tower at the uncontrolled field prior to takeoff and req. permission to transition?

Also, if a Class D ceiling is 3000ft and the Class B starts at 3000 ft in the same location, would you contact the APP controller or the Class D controller if you'd like to transition at 3000? I'm looking at the HPN and NY Class B crossover area.

Thanks for any help!

-Alex

 

[Velocity173]

I wouldn't adjust my route around PWF. Transition through, especially if you're 500 ft above their TPA would be no problem.

As far as the class B with the D transition, if you're talking to New York approach and have been cleared unto the B at 3,000, they're required to get your transition from HPN.

 

[tngarner]

Hi Alex. I am also a fairly new pilot and will say you are thinking the right things.

Know the Center or Approach control freq of the airport you depart from. Get flight following, and they will hand you off and tell you the next freq. They are supposed to take care of any class D transitions in this case but I always ask if I need to Contact the tower for the class D transition. So far at least with ATL Approach they have always said they have handled the transition for me. I just like to make sure and have it on tape know the tower freq of the airport you intend to land at. I have found at Uncontrolled airports they typically just tell you radar service terminated switch to advisory and do not give you the freq. I have always been given the freq for towered airports but I always have that written on my arrival cheat sheet with ground and atis anyway.

 

[duc750sport]

Hey Alex.. Are you visiting someone at Kobelt or just transitioning? Decent restaurant there. I fly into there and MGJ quite often from Jersey..Coming from the south is a lot easier from where you're flying from.

 

[Flyer922]

Thanks for the advice!

I just got my Cirrus cert so I'm renting one this afternoon to take the girlfriend on a quick trip for dinner. I hear the restaurant is great up there so I figured this would be a nice short dinner flight and tonight should be nice weather.

I did some research for good fly-in restaurants and Kobelt kept popping up. Does MGJ have one has well?

 

[MAKG1]

I'd just overfly the D's. Though it's not a big deal to contact tower and transition. You do not need their permission, only two-way contact and lack of a contrary instruction.

 

[bobmrg]

Hi Alex. I am also a fairly new pilot and will say you are thinking the right things.

Know the Center or Approach control freq of the airport you depart from. Get flight following, and they will hand you off and tell you the next freq. They are supposed to take care of any class D transitions in this case but I always ask if I need to Contact the tower for the class D transition. So far at least with ATL Approach they have always said they have handled the transition for me. I just like to make sure and have it on tape know the tower freq of the airport you intend to land at. I have found at Uncontrolled airports they typically just tell you radar service terminated switch to advisory and do not give you the freq. I have always been given the freq for towered airports but I always have that written on my arrival cheat sheet with ground and atis anyway.

From the controller's handbook:

"2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility."

Bob Gardner

 

[dukeblue219]

Hey PoA,

I'm new to the board so I apologize if this information is available in another thread. I recently got my PPL so I'm extra thorough and careful when going to new airports and going on new flights. I like to think ahead to every part of the flight and plan out any controller I may need to talk to and make sure my flight plan makes sense and I'm not unsure about anything.

With that said I'm looking to fly from FRG to N45 (Kobelt Airport). I plan to go FRG - CMK - N45. Right now I'm planning to avoid the SWF and POU Class D through a narrow space between the two but is this necessary?

Unnecessary. Class D airspace is so easy that it's silly to avoid it. Just call whichever tower you prefer about 7-8 miles out and ask for a transition at a particular altitude. Or if you pickup flight following along the way you won't need to worry about it at all.

Same goes for the return flight; should I contact SWF right after takeoff? There's only a few miles from the runway to the class D.

I would just give them a call once you're clear of the pattern. "Stewart Tower, Cessna 12345 departing Kobelt 800 climbing 3500, request transition to the east". Really you should give them a more accurate position and the ATIS, but regardless, you just need some sort of two-way comms established before you enter.

Also, if a Class D ceiling is 3000ft and the Class B starts at 3000 ft in the same location, would you contact the APP controller or the Class D controller if you'd like to transition at 3000? I'm looking at the HPN and NY Class B crossover area

See the Class D ceiling box for HPN? It says "-30" which means up to and not including 3000'. Contact Approach for clearance at that altitude as it is part of the overlying B space.

 

[dukeblue219]

From the controller's handbook:

"2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility."

Bob Gardner

No reason to ask approach if they need you to contact the class D tower. It's part of their job to coordinate it and on them if they don't.

 

[tngarner]

I guess asking about the class D clearence is a habit that I do because my instructor did it so it stuck. Will try to break it.

 

[NotEnough]

Just a heads up. Kobelt is a bit south east of where indicated by the gps / chart location. If you approach from the East can be tricky to see.
Small airport in the trees. Nice restaurant. Enjoy.

 

[bobmrg]

I guess asking about the class D clearence is a habit that I do because my instructor did it so it stuck. Will try to break it.

Instructors are the source of many student problems because they parrot what they were told without doing any research into whether the info is correct or not. That's why I counsel pilots to challenge their instructors: "Show me where it says that in writing."

Bob Gardner.

 

[duc750sport]

Thanks for the advice!

I just got my Cirrus cert so I'm renting one this afternoon to take the girlfriend on a quick trip for dinner. I hear the restaurant is great up there so I figured this would be a nice short dinner flight and tonight should be nice weather.

I did some research for good fly-in restaurants and Kobelt kept popping up. Does MGJ have one has well?

Yes.... MGJ has a restaurant as well. Good food..nice people. A little more expensive than Kobelt. Where are you renting the Cirrus from??

 

[Shepherd]

You guys work too hard.
After you clear the class "B" space (appropriately), just fly OVER everything else. No contact required, then let down on the other side of SWF for Kobelt.
BTW: SWF is NOT a busy airport unless the Air Guard is doing a mass launch\retrieval. Not very likely. Maybe a dozen commercial flights on a busy day. The POU tower pleads with people to talk to them they are so slow. DXR is usually busier than both of them.
Some people describe Kobelt as short, narrow, tree lined and on a nice day will have jumpers in the air. But the food is really good.

 

[Larry in TN]

Instructors are the source of many student problems because they parrot what they were told without doing any research into whether the info is correct or not. That's why I counsel pilots to challenge their instructors: "Show me where it says that in writing."

Exactly! Tribal knowledge. It get's passed down through the "generations" and soon nobody has any idea where it came from.

The late "Bad Chas" (Can't remember his last name) from the Phoenix area had a great story about tribal knowledge when he was an aviation speaker back in the 1980s an 1990s. It was about him giving a private pilot checkride to a student who did a fine job except he taxied the C-172 riding the brakes with the RPM between 1500-2000 RPM. The student couldn't explain why he used that technique other than "because it's good for the motor". Chas went to his instructor and got the same explanation. He then went to the instructor's instructor and finally got the answer to why it was "good for the motor". The very "mature" instructor told him that if you didn't taxi the airplane between 1500 and 2000 RPM then "how would you get the little red light to go out!"

With that said I'm looking to fly from FRG to N45 (Kobelt Airport). I plan to go FRG - CMK - N45.

Adding CMK to your route adds less than 2nm to your route so that's a fine option. I would use flight following for the whole route myself. Due to the close proximity of the first Class D surface area I'd call that tower as soon as possible after takeoff for that first transition and then get flight following as soon as you're clear of the CDA or released by the tower.

 

[Flyer922]

Thanks everyone for the advice and clarification!

Yes.... MGJ has a restaurant as well. Good food..nice people. A little more expensive than Kobelt. Where are you renting the Cirrus from??

I've been renting from Nassau Flyers. They just got a brand new SR-20 which is what I did this trip in - http://www.flynfi.com/View/2014-Cirrus-SR-20-N456LB

Just a heads up. Kobelt is a bit south east of where indicated by the gps / chart location. If you approach from the East can be tricky to see.
Small airport in the trees. Nice restaurant. Enjoy.

I wish I read this before the flight! I approached from the East and wasn't able to pinpoint the airport until I overflew it. Very hard to make out the runway. I knew the runway was narrow but I was expecting it to stand out a bit more than it did. Regardless though the food was great and the final approach was fun! I will definitely be back there!

 

[BrianR]

I wish I read this before the flight! I approached from the East and wasn't able to pinpoint the airport until I overflew it. Very hard to make out the runway. I knew the runway was narrow but I was expecting it to stand out a bit more than it did. Regardless though the food was great and the final approach was fun! I will definitely be back there!

Don't feel bad; I had trouble spotting it coming from the NW! I've been there once, for lunch, and thought the food, served on the outdoor patio, was excellent! While it's not exactly a short field, by the time you clear the trees on either end on final approach, it might as well be!