Significant discrepancy in TPA...Why? [KFRG, LI, NY]

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danielr

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DanielR
I conduct all of my flight training out of Republic airport, located in Farmingdale, on Long Island, New York. I recently came across what might be a significant discrepancy in the traffic pattern altitude: what ATC and everyone else uses as opposed to what the AF/D states.

In the following video, (which I recommend you watch for your entertainment) at 1:26, ATC advises the pilot that the traffic pattern altitude is 1100 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6ju2OQlxJs

In the AF/D, traffic pattern altitude is 1180 MSL (1100 AGL) for conventional aircraft. In the AIM [section 4-3-3], it is stated that "1,000 AGL is recommended pattern altitude unless established otherwise".

It's also a general rule of thumb in aviation. Since FRG is 80 feet above MSL, this would mean that the pattern altitude is 1080 (1100 rounded). However, again, TPA in the AF/D states that TPA is 1180, 100 feet higher than what ATC advises and what everyone else uses.

I have asked my instructor, who didn't know what to tell me. He asked another CFI who didn't know, and then asked another CFI who didn't know.

I'm not sure whether this is a discrepancy or what. What do you guys think?
 
pattern altitudes can be established by airport managers.
 
taters said:
pattern altitudes can be established by airport managers.
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...but the airport manager must submit them to the FAA for publication in the A/FD (or temporarily by NOTAM) before they become "official". If ATC is telling pilots something different than the A/FD, that should be brought to the attention of the airport manager for resolution.

As for the AIM-recommended 1000 AGL for light planes, the A/FD-published altitude always takes precedence.

And here's what it says in the current A/FD for KFRG:

TPA–1180(1100) conventional, 1680(1600) Turbo.
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http://aeronav.faa.gov/pdfs/ne_169_07MAR2013.pdf
 
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And then there's what AOPA publishes as TPA which is often different from the AF/D.
 
The video is a bit old so it's possible that TPA changed since then.

You can always give the tower a call (by phone) if your not sure.
 
MachFly said:
The video is a bit old so it's possible that TPA changed since then.
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TPA is still established as 1100 by the tower, flight instructors, and everyone else who uses the airport.
 
danielr said:
TPA is still established as 1100 by the tower, flight instructors, and everyone else who uses the airport.
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Regardless of that, the matter should be brought to the airport manager's attention so either Tower or the A/FD can be corrected, because it's the airport manager's call, not Tower's.
 
Ron Levy said:
Regardless of that, the matter should be brought to the airport manager's attention so either Tower or the A/FD can be corrected, because it's the airport manager's call, not Tower's.
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I've got the tower's number at the ready, so I might call them later today and find out.

Not too sure if they'd be happy with that, though...
 
danielr said:
I've got the tower's number at the ready, so I might call them later today and find out.

Not too sure if they'd be happy with that, though...
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One last time -- call airport management about this, not the tower. It's airport manager's job, not Tower's, to see the A/FD is right.
 
KFRG is a world in its own. You have have to be on your toes, and just do what ever tower tells you.

If you look at AFD it says 1180(1100).
 
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danielr said:
TPA is still established as 1100 by the tower, flight instructors, and everyone else who uses the airport.
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I think your giving your flight instructors too much credit.
 
I've been flying in and out of FRG for about 44 years, and "everyone" has always "known" the TPA was 1100 MSL. I never before looked in the A/FD, so it was a surprise to me to see it's published as 1100 AGL instead. Personally, I suspect an error in the A/FD data, which is based on information supplied by airport management. That's why calling airport management is the way to resolve the issue.
 
is 80ft "significant" ? how tightly do you hold altitude on downwind? what is the tolerance allowed on your altimeter ? I for one would rather have your eyes looking outside vs focusing on pegging the altimeter.
 
JHW said:
is 80ft "significant" ? how tightly do you hold altitude on downwind? what is the tolerance allowed on your altimeter ? I for one would rather have your eyes looking outside vs focusing on pegging the altimeter.
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80 feet is 80 feet. And a discrepancy is a discrepancy.
 
JHW said:
is 80ft "significant" ? how tightly do you hold altitude on downwind? what is the tolerance allowed on your altimeter ? I for one would rather have your eyes looking outside vs focusing on pegging the altimeter.
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I think the tolerance for the altimeter is +/-20ft. I am not 100% sure, so if any of you guys remember from the top of your head where to check it in the FAR please do.

In my opinion 80ft is not a factor, especially when there is so much flight training going on in the area. However I'm sure the FAA will disagree.
 
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danielr said:
80 feet is 80 feet. And a discrepancy is a discrepancy.
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If your trying to pass a checkride and the inspector asks you for the TPA then yes, 80ft will make a huge difference.


As far as I know at FRG you guys have a lot of large flight schools, that means a lot of students in the pattern, knowing that they are students the odds are that they won't be holding their altitude perfectly.
Also given that FRG is located in the center of NYC (well almost center) you have A LOT of traffic there. If everyone stays perfectly at TPA then chances of mid-airs will increase. Think of the altitude difference as another safety feature against mid-airs.
 
MachFly said:
If your trying to pass a checkride and the inspector asks you for the TPA then yes, 80ft will make a huge difference.


As far as I know at FRG you guys have a lot of large flight schools, that means a lot of students in the pattern, knowing that they are students the odds are that they won't be holding their altitude perfectly.
Also given that FRG is located in the center of NYC (well almost center) you have A LOT of traffic there. If everyone stays perfectly at TPA then chances of mid-airs will increase. Think of the altitude difference as another safety feature against mid-airs.
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We've got SUNY Aviation and Nassau Flyers...only one's on the field to my knowledge.

You're right; chances are student's don't hold their altitude.

As to staying at the exact TPA creating collision hazards, you really shouldn't be that close to another aircraft regardless.

I was speaking in terms of the FAA when I made that statement. With them being the way they are, a discrepancy such as this one is probably a big one to them.
 
danielr said:
We've got SUNY Aviation and Nassau Flyers...only one's on the field to my knowledge.
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Would you happen to know how many planes they have by any chance?

As to staying at the exact TPA creating collision hazards, you really shouldn't be that close to another aircraft regardless.
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Sometimes it's not really an option. Based on my experience tower controllers often put a much faster aircraft behind something very slow causing a collision hazard.
If your interested I'll PM you an example.

I was speaking in terms of the FAA when I made that statement. With them being the way they are, a discrepancy such as this one is probably a big one to them.
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Then I agree.
 
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danielr said:
We've got SUNY Aviation and Nassau Flyers...only one's on the field to my knowledge.
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You're forgetting Academy of Aviation, Long Island Aviators, Louis Fly, AADS, Ventura, Global Aviation...there must be some others I'm forgetting.

It can get busy in the pattern.
 
Ron Levy said:
I've been flying in and out of FRG for about 44 years, and "everyone" has always "known" the TPA was 1100 MSL. I never before looked in the A/FD, so it was a surprise to me to see it's published as 1100 AGL instead. Personally, I suspect an error in the A/FD data, which is based on information supplied by airport management. That's why calling airport management is the way to resolve the issue.
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And sometimes can be a ***** to change. It took me almost a year to get the Atlanta ADO to fix the information for my field.
 
Jayhawk said:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...w=text&node=14:1.0.1.3.21.0.363.14.57&idno=14

At 1,000 MSL, looks like the altimeter tolerance is +/- 20 ft.
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For IFR certification. But what is it for VFR certification? ;)
There is no "VFR certification" in part 91.

So we have the AIM

AIM 7-2-3
a. Most pressure altimeters are subject to mechanical, elastic, temperature, and installation errors. (Detailed information regarding the use of pressure altimeters is found in the Instrument Flying Handbook, Chapter IV.) Although manufacturing and installation specifications, as well as the periodic test and inspections required by regulations (14 CFR Part 43, Appendix E), act to reduce these errors, any scale error may be observed in the following manner:

1. Set the current reported altimeter setting on the altimeter setting scale.

2. Altimeter should now read field elevation if you are located on the same reference level used to establish the altimeter setting.

3. Note the variation between the known field elevation and the altimeter indication. If this variation is in the order of plus or minus 75 feet, the accuracy of the altimeter is questionable and the problem should bereferred to an appropriately rated repair station for evaluation and possible correction.
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flyingron said:
And sometimes can be a ***** to change. It took me almost a year to get the Atlanta ADO to fix the information for my field.
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It's been 6+ years and they still have me living next to the airport in the FAA database. After 30 months I gave up trying to get them to change it.
 
Took us about 90 days to get it changed at KSBY and there was a NOTAM out in the interim. Maybe our airport manager knows something the others don't?
 
Ron Levy said:
Took us about 90 days to get it changed at KSBY and there was a NOTAM out in the interim. Maybe our airport manager knows something the others don't?
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Who knows, I was talking on the phone and emailing the guy at the FAA who handles the airport data. He told me repeatedly, "It will be changed next cycle date." This went on for 30 months worth of cycles.
 
Mike I said:
You're forgetting Academy of Aviation, Long Island Aviators, Louis Fly, AADS, Ventura, Global Aviation...there must be some others I'm forgetting.
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Like I said, to my knowledge...

MachFly said:
Would you happen to know how many planes they have by any chance?

Sometimes it's not really an option. Based on my experience tower controllers often put a much faster aircraft behind something very slow causing a collision hazard.

If your interested I'll PM you an example.
Click to expand...


SUNY Aviation has 22 planes I believe.

And please do. I love examples :)
 
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