Should Roger Maris get a second star?

[woodstock]

If the allegations about steroid use by Mark McGwuire (sp) prove to be true, should Roger get his title back? Should he get a second star explaining that while MM beat him out, he was using steroids? What about Sammy Sosa?

That was the year I made a very concentrated effort to follow baseball. I saw Sammy Sosa play, I saw Cal Ripken's last game of the streak and by a cruel twist of fate didn't see his first game sitting OUT. (this was all the same week even).

at the time I was rooting for Sammy. I knew the players, stats (on a basic level anyway) and went to at least 6-7 games that year in Balto.

since then I've gone back to throwing out the Sports section as a first matter.

 

[wsuffa]

OK, Beth, I'll stir the hornet's nest.

How is the use of steroids any worse for baseball than gambling on the games? If we're going to let the McGuire/Sosa/etc records stand, why shouldn't we let Pete Rose back in the game & induct him into the Hall of Fame?

Note that I'm not offering an opinion on this, I am asking the question.

 

[woodstock]

I think Roger should get it all back - no stars involved except to explain the brou haha. and MM should get a star next to his name.

if indeed he did use steroids. setting aside any potential criminal aspect (if there even was one in 98) it is simply not a level playing field.

 

[Greebo]

Cheating is playing a game in a way that deliberately violates the rules. Were steroids "out of bounds" for baseball when MM and SS were competing for the title? If so, and one was cheating and one wasn't, then the cheater should be stripped of his titles.

If sports figures aren't held accountable for playing by the rules, why would all the young people who look up to them think they should play fair?

 

[Michael]

who was it that said: "If your not cheating, your not trying hard enough."

 

[Ken Ibold]

OK, Beth, I'll stir the hornet's nest.

How is the use of steroids any worse for baseball than gambling on the games? If we're going to let the McGuire/Sosa/etc records stand, why shouldn't we let Pete Rose back in the game & induct him into the Hall of Fame?

Note that I'm not offering an opinion on this, I am asking the question.

I find the two-facedness of baseball's leadership amazing. They like to make a big deal about "tarnishing the image of the game." Pete Rose is banned for life basically because he didn't confess and act contrite. Yet, really, what is so wrong about him betting on baseball, even on his own team, as long as he didn't bet AGAINST the Reds? Don't athletes in a way bet their careers on their teams every game? At the same time, folks like Darryl Strawberry can fail drug test after drug test, get arrested for assault and all the other crap, yet still be welcomed back.

As for the whole steriods thing, if substances aren't banned at the time, then the players who use them are simply working a loophole. No asterisk for Mac (and none for Maris, but that's another issue) in my book. However, if the allegations against Bonds are proven true, then his records should be removed. I would also like to see him fined the amount he earned during that period, but that wouldn't happen.

Furthermore, I think baseball should follow the NFL and adopt the Olympics standard for controlled substances. Maybe I look at the world through rose-colored glasses, but I think allowing cheaters to be record-setting multimillionaires sort of takes away the incentive to play by the rules and is turning sports into "my lawyer can beat up your lawyer."

 

[Henning]

I find the two-facedness of baseball's leadership amazing. They like to make a big deal about "tarnishing the image of the game." Pete Rose is banned for life basically because he didn't confess and act contrite. Yet, really, what is so wrong about him betting on baseball, even on his own team, as long as he didn't bet AGAINST the Reds?

That was always my problem with that decision. I see no problem betting on your team to WIN. If you bet on them to lose, I can see a conflict because you can cause the loss, but a bet to win I can't see a problem. I think Pete got hosed. BTW, there is no proof that athletes back in the old days didn't use performance enhancing drugs either, in various forms, they have been around for centuries if not millenia.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I find the two-facedness of baseball's leadership amazing. They like to make a big deal about "tarnishing the image of the game." Pete Rose is banned for life basically because he didn't confess and act contrite. Yet, really, what is so wrong about him betting on baseball, even on his own team, as long as he didn't bet AGAINST the Reds? Don't athletes in a way bet their careers on their teams every game? At the same time, folks like Darryl Strawberry can fail drug test after drug test, get arrested for assault and all the other crap, yet still be welcomed back.

Ken:

Are you are real dedicated baseball fan? Do you know the history of the sport that prompted the no betting rule to be passed years ago? There were Congressional hearings and the public lost a lot of confidence in the game during that period. If you haven't read up on it, you might want to see why this rule was promulgated to begin with. If you already know and disagree, you many be swimming upstream here.

BTW, had an CFI make an interesting comment to me doing a pre-buy on a Baron last weekend. I explained why I wanted a K-ice plane. He said a partial system was all that was necessary--if I didn't cause any kind of incident, it wouldn't matter anyway. His point, being, if you don't get caught--it's O.k. Loggs didn't have correct engine times; many other facts different that what was promoted. I disagree with this kind of conduct in business and in sports.

Point is, they did get caught. Now what! And, how much does this affect all the guys that were trying to live up to expectations and the rules.

Best,

Dave

 

[bbchien]

I'd be happy to fly with Captain Siciliano any day....

 

[wsuffa]

Now for my opinion.

Pete Rose. He knew what the rules were and he disregarded them. He deserves punishment for that, but I also believe that his athletic accomplishments (not related to the gambling) should be recognized. He still profits handsomly these days. So I agree with the ban, but I also think there should be a place for recognition in the Hall of Fame with a notation about his Hall of Shame to serve as an object lesson. Really, he should pay by losing money on the "fame".

The Steroid Use. If this was technically legal, they exploited a loophole. It doesn't smell good, but I think they are justified in their claim. MLB should change the rules - promptly - to ban steroids, but should also recognize that there will be some other "performance enhancing" thing around the corner. They have been around for a long time. I am troubled by some of the testing that surrounds the Olympic program; it has caused too much controversy. There needs to be a cleaner way to do this.

Profit. What really needs to happen is to remove the profit motive from "cheating". As part of that, I'd be in favor of *quietly* punishing players so they don't get publicity from the "cheating".

Finally, FWIW, I think some of the problems can be cured by eliminating the anti-trust exemption.

Whew. There I've said it.

 

[wsuffa]

I disagree with this kind of conduct in business and in sports.

Point is, they did get caught. Now what! And, how much does this affect all the guys that were trying to live up to expectations and the rules.

Best,

Dave

Dave, agree 100%. It's about obeying both the letter and the spirit of the law.

There are way too many people who "cheat" by claiming that they're either (1) taking advanage of a loophole or (2) they won't get caught. I've seen it in business, sports, and personal life. I don't like to be associated with that behavior.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Ken:

Are you are real dedicated baseball fan? Do you know the history of the sport that prompted the no betting rule to be passed years ago?

I have the Ken Burns 9-volume Baseball series on a shelf 6 feet away, next to a seri-cel (#10/250) showing the 1975 Big Red Machine as Warner Bros cartoon characters, autographed by every member of the roster, plus coaches. (Taz is wearing Rose's 14 , Bugs has Morgan's 8, Foghorn has Bench's 5 ... Gosh, what a team!) When I lived in Miami I had season tix behind home plate 10 rows back -- and went to probably 60 games a season. When I moved to Orlando I bought my house from retiring catcher Joe Oliver, who used it as his off-season house when he was playing.

Yeah, I think I'm a fan. And I know the tales from the Shoeless Joe era.

 

[astanley]

Baseball leadership, ownership, and management was tacit in it's approval and blind eye towards steroid use. It was rampant during the 80's and 90's - and when it comes down to it, everyone is culpable. I think, going forward, testing should be strict and severe. No easy passes, using IOC (without the corruption) standard testing rules. Baseball needs to invest in researching what is new and what is out there - it is cat and mouse for sure, but if you are caught - heavy fines, suspensions, and open admission to the public.

I do not believe, however, past statistics should be revised. Why? Because management did nothing then and, due to their tacit approval, allowed those behaviors to allow cherised records to be broken. I'll note that the highest of the high of all time, .406, is still unbroken. Would you advocate vacating the 86 Mets championship, even though the team openly and wantonly engaged in cocaine abuse? Maybe Bill Lee should have his record wiped clean, because he did more acid after a game than all of Woodstock did before Hendrix took the stage.

What needs to happen is that the public needs to know what was said during the BALCO hearings. Sheffield, Giambi, and Bonds need to be exposed for the frauds that they are, and that image to live on in the history of baseball.

Pete Rose got the Martha Stewart - if he hadn't lied and covered things up - things, I think, would have been a bit different. Maybe some asterisks, maybe a 5 year ban from the hall, but nothing like today. Does he have the credentials to be in the hall? He sure does. But he did what he did and he, unfortuneately, needs to pay for that.

Cheers,

-Andrew
who is extremely excited for Sunday. Fantasy League draft in the AM; Sox-Yanks at the Toilet Bowl in the PM!

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Well, you're much more a fan than I Ken. Seems a lot of folks jump on something and don't really know all the background; should have known you would.



Many folks argue out of emotion with little understanding of the facts. (Not you, but many). Bring up Roe vs. Wade and the fur starts flying. Ask the pro life folks about all the court cases, hearings and deaths that lead to the decision--blank stare. If someone understands all that and still advocates the decision being overturned--I respect their view. If they don't know how many lives were lost because of illegal abortions; the falidimide (sp) scandal in Europe and that a wealthy person had choices where someone not wealthy did not--I don't respect their opinion as much.



The nerve you touched with me is what I have seen in business over the years. We had an incredible real estate/saving and loan bust in the mid 80s. Tax shelters with absolutely no economic merit pumped up prices artificially; S&L gave 100% loans; appraisers inflated values. If you talked to any of the sponsors, CEOs, appraisers--none of it was their fault. The shelter sponsors said their attorneys said it was "legal". The S&L CEO said his competitors were doing it; so, he had to. The appraiser said he was just doing what other appraisers were doing. Caused a real collapse here. (None of these folks spoke of being motivated by pure greed, but most made a lot of money.)



I came out in the WSJ and in other publications and questioned what these sponsors and S&Ls were doing. Got several law suit threats for my candor. Almost got fired at a securities firm where I was the quality control person. Dropped several programs that later went bust, but, their CEOs knew our top folks and it was a pretty bumpy road when I did it.



I just don't buy the had to do it to compete line. Or the, "what's it hurt" or "everybody's doin it". We wouldn't need all the laws we have and all the investigations if people just followed some basic standards. Don't get me going on red light cameras--it's a complete waste to have police assets tied up for red light runners. I watch 'em every day and their the second leading cause of traffic deaths here. We just need some self control to be exhibited.



Vent over, eyes forward, Parade Rest.



Dave

 

[Ken Ibold]

I just don't buy the had to do it to compete line. Or the, "what's it hurt" or "everybody's doin it". We wouldn't need all the laws we have and all the investigations if people just followed some basic standards. Don't get me going on red light cameras--it's a complete waste to have police assets tied up for red light runners. I watch 'em every day and their the second leading cause of traffic deaths here. We just need some self control to be exhibited.

Amen to that, brother!

 

[wsuffa]

Amen to that, brother!

I attribute it to greed.