Should I avoid VOR's to work on dead reckoning & pilotage?

[jasc15]

My instructor says my navigation skills are good, but so far all my XC's have used VOR's, which I feel limits the development of my dead reckoning and pilotage skills. Is it advisable to avoid VOR's for my next XC? Of course, if I do get lost I could just dial one in, so I don't really see any risk here.

I've already had my XC prog check, but i've been away for a few weeks and my instructor wants to do another XC with me before my first solo.

 

[dmccormack]

My instructor says my navigation skills are good, but so far all my XC's have used VOR's, which I feel limits the development of my dead reckoning and pilotage skills. Is it advisable to avoid VOR's for my next XC? Of course, if I do get lost I could just dial one in, so I don't really see any risk here.

I've already had my XC prog check, but i've been away for a few weeks and my instructor wants to do another XC with me before my first solo.

Flying on Long Island, your pilotage should be pretty simple -- Is there LOTS of water on the left with tall buildings in the distance? You're heading west. Stuff like that.

Some of the stuff may or may not be well covered in Primary training. Discuss with your instructor -- it may be worthwhile to ignore the syllabus for a flight or two and fly into CT and try pilotage there.

 

[olasek]

Is it advisable to avoid VOR's for my next XC? Of course, if I do get lost I could just dial one in, so I don't really see any risk here.

I would not set any stringent rules. If you can get by during your next XC using pilotage alone - good for you but I would not count on it all the time, VOR has to be there as a solid backup if terrain is really dificult. I got lost on my first solo XC because I was flying over very flat and featureless terrain and only VOR navigation 'saved' me. If I were you and all of a sudden had queasy feelings about position - I would not hesitate to check up on a nearby VOR. It is superior airman-ship to know how to use VORs then claim super pilotage skills by dropping low so you could read highway signs..

 

[TMetzinger]

If you worry about your pilotage skills, but you and your CFI are happy with your radio-nav skills, by all means try and do your next flight by pilotage alone. It may be that in your airspace you can't really fly that way, because you're either in space where you're talking (and getting vectored) by ATC, or because the consequences of being a little off course could be an airspace bust. Dan's idea of going to CT (why YES, you can DR across the Long Island sound, Lindbergh DR'ed across the friggin ocean!) is a good one. Plenty of pilotage-friendly airspace AND features up there.

 

[rottydaddy]

Probably my worst navigation blunder ever involved me blindly following the CDI straight from a station along an airway. Didn't lose the signal initially... what it did was simply start lying to me as I got farther away. Beware of that. Terrain, distance, etc, etc can all influence VOR signals, even when you have a good "to/from" indication.

Had I done the wiser thing- focused more on what time I should arrive at a given waypoint (which is the heart of dead reckoning) than on the needle, or even the fairly unvaried terrain ( a limitation of pilotage), I'd have caught my error sooner.

So FWIW, I think a good exercise would be to plan a leg along a radial, but use the station passage (or DME fix, or intersection, or any point on a radial) only to confirm that you chose the best wind correction angle, visual landmark on the horizon, etc. Don't rely on, or chase, the CDI.

Another thing to make more productive use of VORs without letting your DR and pilotage skills wither is to think of VORs first and foremost as tools for plotting your position, not as directional beacons. Radials usually work fine for course tracking, but only when the right heading is chosen by the pilot.

I've made very good progress along DR courses by using VOR radials to create fixes ... you still have to use DR and pilotage, but the VOR is there to back that stuff up. Also very handy for getting "unlost", or for creating a specific time at which you should see that destination airport, even if the VOR station is not on the field. Or for defining airspace boundaries... radials can be very handy for that, and I don't mean using DME.

But it should be noted that I got out of the mess mentioned earlier with pilotage alone...

 

[dmccormack]

But it should be noted that I got out of the mess mentioned earlier with pilotage alone...

Yeah, but you're in Jersey ...

"LOTS of houses and buildings? Northeast Jersey. LOTS of McMansions on former rolling farmland? West Jersey. LOTS of pine trees and sand? South Jersey. LOTS of water? Atlantic Ocean. Pretty Green Hills and quaint little towns? It can't be Jersey..."

 

[nyoung]

Pilotage and ded reckoning are good skills to practice, in particular - I find ded reckoning to be fun too.

I fly from the NW Chicago suburbs to Peoria at least once a month. It is a course of 215degrees, usually about 225 heading with Westerly winds. On a few occasions, I have flown it purely by holding heading and stopwatch. Of course, I know the route very well, and could probably fly it blindfolded... but I am amazed at how accurate ded reckoning can be.

Having said that... I would not intentionally avoid using navigation systems in your training, especially since you are based in Long Island. Unless you are 100% confident in your pilotage skills, the complex mix of airspace in the NYC area would make me nervous of an airspace bust.

My instructor says my navigation skills are good, but so far all my XC's have used VOR's, which I feel limits the development of my dead reckoning and pilotage skills. Is it advisable to avoid VOR's for my next XC? Of course, if I do get lost I could just dial one in, so I don't really see any risk here.

I've already had my XC prog check, but i've been away for a few weeks and my instructor wants to do another XC with me before my first solo.

 

[poadeleted20]

My instructor says my navigation skills are good, but so far all my XC's have used VOR's, which I feel limits the development of my dead reckoning and pilotage skills.

Yes, it does.

Is it advisable to avoid VOR's for my next XC?

Absolutely yes, since you're going to have to demonstrate pilotage/DR proficiency on your practical test -- before you demonstrate VOR proficiency.

Of course, if I do get lost I could just dial one in, so I don't really see any risk here.

I agree, but your instructor should have been teaching you pilotage/DR on your dual XC's, not leaving you to teach it to yourself later on solo XC's.

I've already had my XC prog check,

I'm wondering how one can pass an XC prog check without demonstrating pilotage/DR proficiency.

but i've been away for a few weeks and my instructor wants to do another XC with me before my first solo.

As well s/he should, given your lack of pilotage/DR training and the possibility of VOR failure on a solo XC. Insist on doing pilotage/DR on that next dual XC, including on the mandatory "diversion" task. If your instructor doesn't help you on this, you need a chat with the Chief Instructor about the situation, because you won't pass your PP practical test without proficiency in this area (not to mention the potential for getting lost someday).

 

[CT Arrow]

My instructor says my navigation skills are good, but so far all my XC's have used VOR's, which I feel limits the development of my dead reckoning and pilotage skills. Is it advisable to avoid VOR's for my next XC? Of course, if I do get lost I could just dial one in, so I don't really see any risk here.

I've already had my XC prog check, but i've been away for a few weeks and my instructor wants to do another XC with me before my first solo.

Why not TIT (Tune, ID and twist) and leave it in the background. It's there if you need it but plan a flight into North Western Mass. or upstate NY where your Pilotage skills will get a work out. Just don't look South or you will see the Atlantic!!

 

[rottydaddy]

Yeah, but you're in Jersey ...

"LOTS of houses and buildings? Northeast Jersey. LOTS of McMansions on former rolling farmland? West Jersey. LOTS of pine trees and sand? South Jersey. LOTS of water? Atlantic Ocean. Pretty Green Hills and quaint little towns? It can't be Jersey..."

No, this was in Georgia...
But yes, it's pretty hard to get lost over NJ. Hard to find some of the airports, though.

 

[dmccormack]

No, this was in Georgia...
But yes, it's pretty hard to get lost over NJ. Hard to find some of the airports, though.

True -- especially at night!

 

[Everskyward]

"LOTS of houses and buildings? Northeast Jersey. LOTS of McMansions on former rolling farmland? West Jersey. LOTS of pine trees and sand? South Jersey. LOTS of water? Atlantic Ocean. Pretty Green Hills and quaint little towns? It can't be Jersey..."

Refineries? Central Jersey...

 

[dmccormack]

Refineries? Central Jersey...

Ah, the scent of the old homestead...

 

[jasc15]

Flying on Long Island, your pilotage should be pretty simple -- Is there LOTS of water on the left with tall buildings in the distance? You're heading west. Stuff like that.

Well, pilotage & DR is easy on LI, I never use VOR's there. It's when i get upstate NY or into CT.

I agree, but your instructor should have been teaching you pilotage/DR on your dual XC's, not leaving you to teach it to yourself later on solo XC's.

I have been using these skills and my instructor seems to be happy with my level of proficiency. I make my checkpoints on time, etc. so It looks like I am where i should be.

I'm wondering how one can pass an XC prog check without demonstrating pilotage/DR proficiency.

I have demonstrated these. I just feel that it would help to navigate solely off pilotage & DR, because i am always confirming using VOR, so I'd like to see how I can do without it.

As well s/he should, given your lack of pilotage/DR training and the possibility of VOR failure on a solo XC. Insist on doing pilotage/DR on that next dual XC, including on the mandatory "diversion" task. If your instructor doesn't help you on this, you need a chat with the Chief Instructor about the situation, because you won't pass your PP practical test without proficiency in this area (not to mention the potential for getting lost someday).

We have also done several diversion tasks successfully.

From everyone's comments, and the fact that my instructor and the prog check instructor feel that I'm fine, then I feel comfortable where I am with my nav skills. I just feel that I would benefit from using the more 'raw' methods of nav. Like i said, i make my checkpoints (most of the time. sometimes I'm distracted with ATC or something, and i'll miss one) and I can usually identify landmarks, but I sometimes have trouble there, and would like to work more on that.

 

[dmccormack]

Well, pilotage & DR is easy on LI, I never use VOR's there. It's when i get upstate NY or into CT.

When you say "Upstate NY," I assume you mean the Hudson river valley and perhaps the Catskills?

NY's topography and highway system really helps simplify pilotage:

• Smaller hilly mountains and Route 17? Catskills.
• Bigger mountains with lots of lakes? Adirondacks.
• Big long lake running north-south? Lake Champlain.
• Flat with lots of long lakes? Finger Lakes.
• REALLY big lake? Lake Ontario.
• REALLY cold and flat? St Lawrence Valley.

Most students expect the same level of precision during pilotage they experience using radio/GPS.

There will be times you are waiting for the next checkpoint to appear. That's why time calcs are so important: "I should see route 81 in about 15 minutes..." It's also why you give yourself boundaries: "If I see a big lake I won't cross -- I've missed my last checkpoint."

In the less feature-rich parts of the country, heading and time are your only option until you encounter the next checkpoint.

Make sure your checkpoints are big and obvious from the air. It's easy to run a line on the sectional in your living room, but trust me -- eventually you'll be asking: "Is that Millersburg or Millersville???"

Use lakes, really big towers, highways, intersections, prison complexes -- stuff that is obvious. Don't expect to be able to make out one town from another based on the shape shown on the sectional.

One thing I learned Army Land Navigation was to pick a point that aligns with your azimuth (heaidng in aviation). Move smartly to that point. Repeat. It's much less time consuming and tedious than staring at a compass.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have demonstrated these.

Good, because your original post seemed to me to say otherwise.

I just feel that it would help to navigate solely off pilotage & DR, because i am always confirming using VOR, so I'd like to see how I can do without it.

Then just do it. I don't see why your instructor would make you use the VOR in such a case. Just leave the VOR tuned to some frequency not locally used, and don't use it unless you need it. If nothing else, locating yourself by VOR when you don't know quite where you are is a different skill than using it to keep track of where you are along a predetermined path, and one worth developing for the day when nothing on the ground looks like anything on the chart. And you don't know how bad that can be until you've had it happen while traveling at 450 mph (BTDT, no t-shirt awarded).

 

[Jack Spectre]

On my checkride my DPE said "ok divert to xxx airport"

I turned in the direction of the airport, using my chart to find landmarks for navigation, and tuned in a VOR to help me find it.

"Your VOR is not working" she said. I started tuning the airport's CTAF and paused, looking at her..."Does my radio still work?"

"Yes it does."

I found it without the VOR.

 

[flyersfan31]

I second everything Ron said.

I'm surprised the CFI hasn't said "OK, plan a flight. Pick your waypoints and work off the log." That's what the DE is going to say, and VORs are not included in that exercise. It's usually the first thing on the list for your checkride. You'll call him, he'll say plan a flight to XYZ and bring it with you. You'll go over the plan on the ground as part of the exam, then start flying it - at least 1 or 2 waypoints - before doing other maneuvers.

Plus, it's a fun challenge. Go for it.

 

[steingar]

Better learn how to do things sans VORs. Not all airplanes have them. Mine doesn't.