Should have gone around

A

aggie06

Line Up and Wait
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Aggie
Last weekend, I was coming back into a towered field on flight following. I heard the tower clear a Challenger to land, then told a 182 he was #2. The guy spoke broken English and repeated that he was cleared to land, so the tower had to forcefully tell the guy he was not cleared to land, but that he was #2, and then ask again for him to repeat it. Based on the obvious confusion and the fact that his tail number ended in AF (like all the other American Flyers planes) I should have known then that the guy was likely a student pilot overwhelmed by everything going on and may cause trouble.

Tower cleared me #3 to land, and I told him I had the Challenger and the 182 in sight. I extended my downwind before turning base and final. I watched the 182 land on the 7000+ foot runway and then taxi down the runway toward a taxiway that was almost at the other end. I realized on about a quarter mile final that this guy was still stopped on the runway. Instead of telling the tower I was going around, I angrily asked if I was still cleared to land. Tower said yes, that he only needed 3000 feet. I ended up touching down as the 182 was finally making his turnoff. That's when I heard a different voice from that airplane (assuming the CFI) repeat taxi instructions back to the tower.

I should have gone around. Obviously, nothing terrible happened, but definitely the MMQB in me says I should have firewalled it instead of asking if I was still cleared to land. One of my passengers happens to be an airline pilot and said his company policy was to go around if someone is on the runway, but that he wasn't sure what the rule was. Next time, I'll go around.
 
The only question I'd ask myself is "am I 100% sure I can do this safely?" If yes, I'd land. Besides, if you land, it would give the tower more time to give the 182 a phone number to call.
 
So how far down the runway was this 182 when you were on short final? If he's at the other end of a 7000ft runway, you could land, stop, and probably take off again without a conflict. And I don't think what transpired was any kind of violation. Annoying, yes.
 
That 3,000 ft rule only applies to the departures of small aircraft.
 
What airport was this at?

The broken english comment makes me think of the students around DTO.
 
He was probably 3500 feet down the runway. There was room to land and takeoff again, but my MMQB thought was more of a what if something else happened that caused me not to be able to stop in time or need to takeoff again without enough room.
 
Old Geek said:
The only question I'd ask myself is "am I 100% sure I can do this safely?" If yes, I'd land. Besides, if you land, it would give the tower more time to give the 182 a phone number to call.
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What he said.

I don't think the 182 did anything PD worthy.
 
James331 said:
What he said.

I don't think the 182 did anything PD worthy.
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From the OP's description, he didn't turn off at the first available taxiway. Maybe not a PD, but worth a conversation. If he had made a Dash 8 full of passengers go around, well, you get my drift.
 
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I really don't see any problem. Unless I felt that for some reason I could not land and stop withing 3500 feet.

What were you flying?
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
That 3,000 ft rule only applies to the departures of small aircraft.
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The 3,000 ft. rule also applies to same runway operations of Category I aircraft landing behind a Category I or Category II aircraft.
 
So, what transpired was indeed legal. I think the tower controllers intent was probably to keep you happy and not make you go around. But I think we can all appreciate the frustration. Just like being stuck behind someone driving slow and making you catch every red light between home and work.
 
I was flying a 172, so landing and stopping in 3500 feet is definitely doable. I think next time I'm going around because the only way to break the accident chain is to stop when something isn't right. What happens if that student pilot turns around to back taxi without clearance? Any number of things could have happened that would have changed the safe outcome here.

My point is that I'm a low time pilot, so I imagine that errors can compound much more quickly than for some of you with many more hours of experience. Better to start over with a clean slate than try to force something.

Appreciate everyone's thoughts. Definitely helps to understand what other people think is safe and what is legal. Hopefully it also allowed someone else to think through a scenario and decide what they would have done.

AggieMike - I'm always up for Old Army and/or aviation stories.
 
Your right seat airline pilot comment that it was their company policy to go around, remember, they are flying jets.

If you are on speed and configured for a threshold landing, continue the landing if you had a clearance. The problem child was far enough down the runway, on the last half, you only needed the first half. Tower is expecting you to land. But the go around is always your option if you are not comfortable.

If you plan to intentionally land long because your parking is at the far end of a very long runway, let tower know your plan. They may be expecting you to land normally and clear at the first opportunity. It makes a difference if he has that higher category aircraft landing behind you.
 
aggie06 said:
I was flying a 172, so landing and stopping in 3500 feet is definitely doable. I think next time I'm going around because the only way to break the accident chain is to stop when something isn't right. What happens if that student pilot turns around to back taxi without clearance? Any number of things could have happened that would have changed the safe outcome here.

My point is that I'm a low time pilot, so I imagine that errors can compound much more quickly than for some of you with many more hours of experience. Better to start over with a clean slate than try to force something.

Appreciate everyone's thoughts. Definitely helps to understand what other people think is safe and what is legal. Hopefully it also allowed someone else to think through a scenario and decide what they would have done.

AggieMike - I'm always up for Old Army and/or aviation stories.
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You're asking all the right questions.

Remember, you are the PIC. Not anyone on this board, or in the tower. If you are uncomfortable with conditions, it's your call to go around, and it's completely legit. Even if you go around because your leg itches or you think you might be distracted or a host of other things. I've gone around because a kid was whining in the back seat on short final. I could unplug him on downwind, but no way I was doing that at 100 AGL. And it was a real obvious distraction.
 
Cliche time...treat every approoach like it will result in a go around...

Tons of runway...all ended well...good to look back and analyze your actions and options...chair fly it a few times...

I am approaching 1500 hours and find myself in positions from time to time that I go "Dude, you do NOT have the experience to pull this off"...
 
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In a non-towered environment I want to get on the ground and off the runway soonest. If I am properly setup, I am going to do what Goose said to Maverick, "Let's land this sucker".
 
When landing at a certain field with a presidential library nearby, We (CFI and I) landed asked for back taxi started wandering back down the runway when the tower comes on and says "You realize you have 6000 feet of concrete out there" in his best east texas draw. We pulled a quick U turn affirmed nailed the throttle. You could put say 3 172 wing tip to wingtip across a 7000 foot runway?
 
Lindberg said:
Nothing changes, I guess. The last time I landed at ADS, twenty years ago, the tower had to yell at one of those students who decided, on his own, to do a 360 on downwind for spacing.
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Wondering if PIC has authority to do so. I'm thinking yes.:yes:
 
Jaybird180 said:
Wondering if PIC has authority to do so. I'm thinking yes.:yes:
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Tower: Bugsmasher 1234C, extend downwind, I'll call your base.
1234C: Roger
T: 34C, what the hell are you doing?:yikes:
T: 34C, I told you to extend downwind, not right 360!
34C: Roger.
T: Never do that!
34C: Roger.
T: Do you understand what I'm saying?
34C: Roger.

Legal? :dunno: I guess it depends on the circumstances. A good idea? :no: Reckless? :rolleyes:
 
aggie06 said:
Last weekend, I was coming back into a towered field on flight following. I heard the tower clear a Challenger to land, then told a 182 he was #2. The guy spoke broken English and repeated that he was cleared to land, so the tower had to forcefully tell the guy he was not cleared to land, but that he was #2, and then ask again for him to repeat it. Based on the obvious confusion and the fact that his tail number ended in AF (like all the other American Flyers planes) I should have known then that the guy was likely a student pilot overwhelmed by everything going on and may cause trouble.

Tower cleared me #3 to land, and I told him I had the Challenger and the 182 in sight. I extended my downwind before turning base and final. I watched the 182 land on the 7000+ foot runway and then taxi down the runway toward a taxiway that was almost at the other end. I realized on about a quarter mile final that this guy was still stopped on the runway. Instead of telling the tower I was going around, I angrily asked if I was still cleared to land. Tower said yes, that he only needed 3000 feet. I ended up touching down as the 182 was finally making his turnoff. That's when I heard a different voice from that airplane (assuming the CFI) repeat taxi instructions back to the tower.

I should have gone around. Obviously, nothing terrible happened, but definitely the MMQB in me says I should have firewalled it instead of asking if I was still cleared to land. One of my passengers happens to be an airline pilot and said his company policy was to go around if someone is on the runway, but that he wasn't sure what the rule was. Next time, I'll go around.
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Nah, if he's way down a big runway and you have it made, plus a clearance, it's good to land it.
 
aggie06 said:
I should have gone around. Obviously, nothing terrible happened, but definitely the MMQB in me says I should have firewalled it instead of asking if I was still cleared to land.
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I think it all depends on what you were seeing and hearing at the time. I've gone around in those situations, but here's why:

A few years ago I'm on FF approaching my field mid afternoon (i.e. summer and normally no one is out flying desert southwest and all). Controller releases me 10 miles from field and indicates there is a Lear about 15 in trail to me inbound as well. I switch to CTAF, but keep FF on Comm2 setting up for a straight in approach.

At 2 miles out I notice a Twin has landed and is exiting mid-field. As I near, he turns around on the taxi-way and stops. As I get to short final, he pulls out onto the runway, throttles up and begins his takeoff run opposite direction directly at me (no transmissions - intersection departure mid field). I side-step to the right and we pass each other near the threshold. Sounds exciting, but it wasn't ... I had him the entire way. I keyed up and warned the Lear that was trailing that he was about to have opposite direction traffic and that I was going around in the pattern. Lear pilot says thanks, spots him and breaks off as well. The twin pilot then pipes up and apologies to both of us that his radio volume had been turned down.:nonod:
 
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danhagan said:
I think it all depends on what you were seeing and hearing at the time. I've gone around in those situations, but here's why:

A few years ago I'm on FF approaching my field mid afternoon (i.e. summer and normally no one is out flying desert southwest and all). Controller releases me 10 miles from field and indicates there is a Lear about 15 in trail to me inbound as well. I switch to CTAF, but keep FF on Comm2 setting up for a straight in approach.

At 2 miles out I notice a Twin has landed and is exiting mid-field. As I near, he turns around on the taxi-way and stops. As I get to short final, he pulls out onto the runway, throttles up and begins his takeoff run opposite direction directly at me (no transmissions - intersection departure mid field). I side-step to the right and we pass each other near the threshold. Sounds exciting, but it wasn't ... I had him the entire way. I keyed up and warned the Lear that was trailing that he was about to have opposite direction traffic and that I was going around in the pattern. Lear pilot says thanks, spots him and breaks off as well. The twin pilot then pipes up and apologies to both of us that his radio volume had been turned down.:nonod:
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Radio volume???? Seems to me he had his eyes closed as well (and maybe not using his brain at full capacity either).
 
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