Short soft field. high wing trike with manual flaps. best way to stop?

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Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dump flaps release back pressure stand on brakes?

Hold all flaps hold back pressure use brakes and let them skitter?

All my high wing time is in a Citabria TW without flaps.
 
For what it's worth ..

Short soft field keep the approach short, approach angle steep, full flaps, touch of power, pull gently back into ground effect, throttle closed or as needed, let the mains touch, release back pressure then move feet up to brakes. Brake as needed or dump flaps and brake harder. It's virtually impossible to nose over due to aerodynamics on the horizontal stabilizer.

I'm a tail low wheelie fan.:wink2: Three points are cool and should be taught and all that, but at the end of the day the wheelie wins out with me because of better consistancy and better sightline and all around control.
 
Threshold braking.

I find raising flaps make very little difference.

You can shorten the ground roll by dragging it in at high power behind the power curve and cutting power when the mains touch, but that doesn't leave much margin for error.

I find I can land a 172 pretty short on pavement in no wind just by following the POH, but just leaving flaps down. If light, you need to adjust approach speed down. It goes as the square root of gross weight. A soft surface will slow you down faster.

How short are we talking about? I don't bother with this stuff above 2000 feet, as that's more than twice a normal rollout.
 
I prefer to hold up elevator while braking; the harder I brake, the harder I pull. But since brake pads are expensive, I do my best to limit hard braking. A 2000' grass strip should not require it.
 
If it's truly a soft field, just hold the yoke back and add enough power to keep from stopping on the runway.
 
Full flaps, approach at the right airspeed, cut the throttle over the threshold, then just land. Practice makes better. Right approach airspeed for short/soft is...1.2 x stall speed? It's been a while since I've looked at that.

The soft field should slow you down. If you're concerned about braking so you don't run off a short field, you probably shouldn't have landed.
 
Weren't you guys taught soft field and short field techniques? The answer to the question depends on several things like how soft the surface is and how big your tires are. Soft field requires a light touch. Short field is more of a carrier landing. How you blend those depends on the surface and the equipment.

In short landing flaps definitely need to be retracted. I used to flip the flap switch up on my XP as soon as I knew I had the threshold covered. Full up elevator and heavy on the brakes. If it was soft enough to be concerned I'd go easier on the brakes, leave some flaps out, and still held full elevator to try to lighten the nose, adding power if it was necessary to hold the nose up.

500' is plenty of room to land a 172. Getting back out will be a problem but landing short is fairly simple. Use a classic short field technique and you'll have room to spare.
 
I agree with stewartb, if there is enough room to take off then there should be enough room to land.

One thing not mentioned is to make your approach so you touch down very near the begining of the runway. That may mean starting your flare before the threshold and riding the ground effect past it.

But again, landing should not be the thing that takes up the most runway, take off is.
 
Remember that for short field your intent is to stop quickly. With soft field your intent is not to be stopped too quickly. Very different concerns.
 
However many soft fields are ALSO short fields.

I dump my flaps, full aft elivator and brake as hard as the surface will allow.

You'll find bringing it in at VREF will make more of a difference than what you do when you touch down.

Remember the book numbers are for FULL GROSS, if you're not full gross those numbers are too fast, also slips are your friend :)
 
Hank S said:
I prefer to hold up elevator while braking; the harder I brake, the harder I pull. But since brake pads are expensive, I do my best to limit hard braking.
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Ditto. And you need to be holding the controls, not grabbing for the flaps until you're slow enough that the flaps don't make a difference, especially if (as on some planes) the brake is a handbrake.

A 2000' grass strip should not require it.
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Depends what you're flying.
 
Ron Levy said:
Ditto. And you need to be holding the controls, not grabbing for the flaps until you're slow enough that the flaps don't make a difference, especially if (as on some planes) the brake is a handbrake.

Depends what you're flying.
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Left hand on the yoke, right for the flaps :dunno:

sometime you don't want the flaps to not be making a difference while they still are making a difference.
 
James331 said:
Left hand on the yoke, right for the flaps :dunno:
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History tells us pilots who let go of the flight controls to grab something else have accidents too often.

sometime you don't want the flaps to not be making a difference while they still are making a difference.
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If the airport is so short that the only way to stop is to retract the flaps immediately on touchdown, a) it's probably not long enough to take off again, and b) you should have picked another runway because the safety margins are too thin -- unless you're carrying the serum to Nome or something like that.
 
I can easily control the yoke while retracting my 180's manual flaps from 40* to 10*. It's even easier in a Cub. I don't need to lean over and lock them at zero. Does it improve braking and control? Absolutely. It isn't always necessary but it sure comes in handy when it is.
 
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Anybody ever had or tried the EZ flap STC? :dunno:





EZ-Flap-0711a.jpg
 
Ron Levy said:
History tells us pilots who let go of the flight controls to grab something else have accidents too often.

If the airport is so short that the only way to stop is to retract the flaps immediately on touchdown, a) it's probably not long enough to take off again, and b) you should have picked another runway because the safety margins are too thin -- unless you're carrying the serum to Nome or something like that.
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Who's letting go of flight controls?

My left hand is normally on the yoke, right on engine controls and flaps, etc.

No letting go of controls.

Also dumping flaps comes in handy with major winds and a few other circumstances.
 
James331 said:
Who's letting go of flight controls?

My left hand is normally on the yoke, right on engine controls and flaps, etc.

No letting go of controls.
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Unless you have three hands, you have to let go of something in order to grab something else.

But it's still pointless because if you have to do that, either the runway is too short for your plane or you should have gone around before landing that far down the runway.
 
Two hands on the yoke? Seriously? What about Cub drivers? Two hands in the stick? And some of us operate regularly on short strips. My second home strip looks like a Herc strip at 1000'. A friend's place has 500' with no overruns on either end. Lots of guys I know have strips that fall in between those lengths. You get comfy in the places that you use regularly. It isn't for everyone but that's part of the charm. No crowds.
 
Ron Levy said:
The yoke/stick isn't your only flight control.
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Just because you don't do it doesn't mean everyone else is wrong. Go get some Cub time and land on a narrow spot that's only a few hundred feet long in a gusty crosswind. You'll figure the flap thing out pretty quickly.

My Cessna has manually adjusting Y harnesses and I have no trouble with my flaps without that goofy EZ bar thing. I lean over at my leisure to pull the first notch as I slow to flap speed on approach. Even the second notch is pulled well before I turn final. As I line up To drop in I'll cinch up the straps as warranted by conditions and even when tightly bound I can employ flaps to 30 or 40, or from 40 back to 20 or 10, without any problem at all. A Cub doesn't need the flap button pushed to pull them on so that's an even easier situation to handle when cinched in. You can grab the handle anywhere and lift it to the next notch.
 
Y harnesses :mad2:

For Skywagons they got to go, BAS is really a needed upgrade.

Planning on doing to on mine, it's expensive for what it is, but it's needed for 180/5s
 
Stewartb said:
Just because you don't do it doesn't mean everyone else is wrong. Go get some Cub time and land on a narrow spot that's only a few hundred feet long in a gusty crosswind. You'll figure the flap thing out pretty quickly.
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The Cubs I flew didn't even have flaps, so it wasn't an issue.
 
James331 said:
Y harnesses :mad2:

For Skywagons they got to go, BAS is really a needed upgrade.

Planning on doing to on mine, it's expensive for what it is, but it's needed for 180/5s
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Musings from this skywagon owner in order of importance:

B.A.S. shoulder harness
Cessna inertial reel seat stop or some kind of seat stop and use it. !
B.A.S. tail pull handles
Door stewards (love mine)


Knowing what I know now after owning ours, the above mods would be what I would do first if they don't exist. All other mods would have to wait in line. :wink2:
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Looks like a perfect solution in search of a problem?
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Two things: First, any mods like that need an STC. Second, I just installed one of those for a guy who has over 4000 hours of 185 time, and he loves it.

I have flown 180s and 185s and raised the flaps on the short-field touchdown, and it does help. However, if you can't get the flaps right up (and it's hard in one of those airplanes without losing sight of the runway), the flaps can actually add lift at 10 or 20 degrees; at 40 degrees there's mostly drag. One wants to dump the lift, not increase it. In the Auster the flaps were easily raised all the way without any bending over, and I would approach at 1.1 Vso on short final and raise the flaps as the mains touched. Could stop in under 200 feet.

Dan
 
Disagree. On a short landing setup and especially in ground effect if you maintain a level attitude just off the ground with 40* flaps and retract to 20* without doing anything else you're coming down.

I usually use 20* flaps for takeoff in my 180. I can take off shorter with 40* flaps, no question.
 
Stewartb said:
Disagree. On a short landing setup and especially in ground effect if you maintain a level attitude just off the ground with 40* flaps and retract to 20* without doing anything else you're coming down.

I usually use 20* flaps for takeoff in my 180. I can take off shorter with 40* flaps, no question.
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Ok, so we've decided to retract the flaps to 20 over the threshold and let it land. Should the rest of the flaps be taken out for braking? I tend to think so.
 
With a simple to flip switch? I used to flip mine from 40 to 0 at about 5' off the ground if I was sure I had the landing under control. If there's a potential for a balked landing? Different rules. In the 180 I can get the flaps down to 10* without bending over so that's good enough for me until I have it slowed to taxi speed.
 
With respect to taildraggers that have flaps, here's my 30 second challenge.

#1- Do a full flap wheel landing and keep a little speed up so that you can hold the tail up. Not racing down the runway but enough to have authority over the tail. So it's nice and stable and you reach over and retract flaps to 20*. The tail will drop to the runway like a rock and you won't be able to lift it without more speed.

#2- Now taxi back and set normal trim for a 20* takeoff. On the runway accelerate to lift the tail and hold the speed and attitude right there. Now pull 40* flaps. Pay attention because the moment you pull flaps to 40* you're flying. Ask any floatplane driver how to shorten the takeoff run and they'll tell you to pop the flaps to get the floats off the water. It works the same way on tires. Like in sticky mud or soft sand where the surface is bogging the plane down.

Skywagons and Cubs both respond as I've described. I don't know other taildraggers very well so there may be exceptions that don't work the same way.
 
The above is all well and good, but the question posed was about a trike.
 
Bobanna said:
With a little headwind, a 172 lands incredibly short; pulling-up the flaps may help reduce the roll-out some, but I'm not sure that a headwind pushing against full flaps doesn't reduce it about as much.
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Personally, never felt the need to do anything with the flaps right after landing.

Was taught not to touch anything until clear of the active. Taught that way for years. Was what the FAA wanted, and I liked to be in synch with that for my students' sake.

If anyone likes doing it, fine. If it gains anything at all it must be a very, very small amount, trading away some modicum of aerodynamic drag for some modicum of increased braking efficiency - at least in most small, GA aircraft flown by a single pilot.
 
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FastEddieB said:
Personally, never felt the need to do anything with the flaps right after landing.

Was taught not to touch anything until clear of the active.
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Retracting the flaps can shorten the landing distance. Retracting the gear works even better.
 
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