Short Final - would you take it?

[Fearless Tower]

75 feet isn't that narrow. We aren't talking about B-737s here.

It isn't that narrow, but still you don't see that many jets going into 75' runways. Like I said, it isn't impossible, but definitely not that common.

 

[Everskyward]

It isn't that narrow, but still you don't see that many jets going into 75' runways. Like I said, it isn't impossible, but definitely not that common.

They frequently have jets sidestep to 17R at KAPA which is 77' wide.

They'll even ask Gulfstreams to sidestep. Of course this one didn't work out as planned... but they did successfully land on the taxiway.

According to the captain, he was cleared for a visual approach to runway 17L, which was confirmed and acknowledged. Approximately 30 seconds prior to landing, he was advised to "go around or sidestep" to runway 17R. He accepted the "sidestep" and was cleared to land runway 17R. The captain continued the approach, sidestepped to runway 17R and landed. After landing, the tower advised the captain that he had landed on taxiway Bravo. According to a witness who had completed several approaches after the Gulfstream, runway 17L and taxiway Bravo, were both "clean and clear," and runway 17R was snow covered. Taxiway Bravo is positioned between runway 17L and runway 17R. The "black" surface of runway 17L and taxiway Bravo created a "strong" contrast with the surrounding snow covered ground. Runway 17R had much less of a contrast due to the snow that remained on it. The airport's notices to airman (NOTAM) did not identify that runway 17R was snow covered.

http://www.aircraftone.com/aircraft/accidents/20050124X00098.asp

 

[Everskyward]

If I'm reading the AF/D correctly the 29L is limited to 12,500 pounds single wheel.

What if you have two (per side)? Actually, I've never seen a definitive answer to this question when there is no dual wheel weight published.

 

[silver-eagle]

A Citation Sovereign operates regularly out of Marshfield MA. The rw is 2999x75 with a single wheel limit of 12500 pounds. Seems to me it is a case of favoring biz to 29R and wheezy GA aircraft to 29L.
But then, I hope when I have big money, I'll get preferential treatment too.

 

[ejensen]

What if you have two (per side)? Actually, I've never seen a definitive answer to this question when there is no dual wheel weight published.

Neither have I when only the S limit is published. I'm also guessing they don't want to bother with figuring out who is light enough. If you're a jet you use the big runway, no questions.

 

[Everskyward]

A Citation Sovereign operates regularly out of Marshfield MA. The rw is 2999x75 with a single wheel limit of 12500 pounds.

Hope you are not seeing them take off when the temperature is more than about 7C. Citation Sovereign is a great short field airplane, especially for its size but that is pretty short...

 

[rpadula]

I was chatting with another member (my neighbor) on our way to the club meeting about the short final offered by tower, talked through the setup, my approach and landing and that it was a "grin" landing - felt really good.

I was rather surprised by his response "Oh boy - Jeffco's 'short approach to 29R' again. Watch yourself very carefully on these."

He's a retired ATP, last flew 747s, and I respect and value his opinion. He shared that our flying club is especially sensitive to the "short final to 29R", based on this: http://www.planecrashmap.com/plane/co/N3015L

If the accident pilot, with his experience, had problems, and my neighbor, with his experience, cautions me - I'm listening.

It seems to me two key things from the report that were left out of your original question were (1) the tailwind, and (2) having low time in type. I think that would change some of the poll responses.

 

[bluesky74656]

One time I was offered a short final for an airliner landing on a crossing runway. I accepted, turned base right about at the end of the runway, turned final, and in short order realized I wasn't going to make it.

I went around. End of story. (Although my friends still recount it as "The time we were almost hit by a jet").

 

[Everskyward]

Reading that report, I must admit that I am suprised that someone with that experience would have an accident like that. I can't help but think that age may have had something to do with it.

That plus the fact that the autopsy showed...

significant atherosclerotic coronary artery disease

 

[N801BH]

That plus the fact that the autopsy showed...

Several things conspired to end this guys life..

Age
Wind
Health issues

IMHO the check pilot in that flying club should have been honest to him and denied access to the HP airframe, and if it was a T tail those will give you VERY poor elevator authority at slower airspeeds... No wonder the bottom dropped out on him... At least he passed away doing what he liked to do, unfortunately a day too late.

Fly safe out there guys and gals...

Ben.

 

[PilotAlan]

That plus the fact that the autopsy showed...

Several things conspired to end this guys life..
Age
Wind
Health issues

Not to mention the morphine in his system......

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd get out of the way just to see Lance's pretty airplane.

Me too, but I think maybe he was IFR and didn't have me in sight, so I was so far away by the time he passed I didn't see him. Well, until a few minutes later, we were going to the same place.

Got a much better view of 25Q when we went from Ames to Estherville a few years ago, though... Even though it was mostly dark. That bird lights up like a Christmas tree!

 

[N801BH]

Not to mention the morphine in his system......

I don't know when the actual blood was drawn but with the level of burns he had, Morphine given in the first few hours after his crash to lessen the pain would account for it in the blood test. IMHO.

Ben.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

He's a retired ATP, last flew 747s, and I respect and value his opinion. He shared that our flying club is especially sensitive to the "short final to 29R", based on this: http://www.planecrashmap.com/plane/co/N3015L

If the accident pilot, with his experience, had problems, and my neighbor, with his experience, cautions me - I'm listening.

If nothing else, that simply shows that airplanes don't care how many hours or type ratings you have - Today's flight is the only one that matters.

It also shows that nobody is immune from a stall-spin accident, and that one must always remain vigilant, proficient, know they aircraft, etc.

I bet the accident pilot didn't do a whole lot of short approaches in his airline career, either.

 

[gkainz]

Not to mention the morphine in his system......

The report notes that the testing was performed on blood drawn at the hospital. The pilot suffered extensive 2nd degree burns. I assume the morphine was administered ASAP, perhaps even by Emergency Response?

 

[John Baker]

That's a fairly common occurrence at KMYF, a busy airport. I've been given, and accepted, that option more than a few times. As mentioned previously, it's fun doing it. Worst case scenario is you'd have to do a go around, no big deal.

John

 

[Fearless Tower]

That's a fairly common occurrence at KMYF, a busy airport. I've been given, and accepted, that option more than a few times. As mentioned previously, it's fun doing it. Worst case scenario is you'd have to do a go around, no big deal.

John

No kidding...I've gotten to where I can consistently drop it in on a short approach to 28R and still make the exit at C.

 

[John Baker]

The fun one was at Gillespie Field (KSEE) 27 right. It's a right pattern, and abeam the numbers, there is a small mountain called rattlesnake mountain. So you get the option for a short field and turn in, just skirting the pile of dirt. I haven't done that one in years, but it was fun. I doubt they do it anymore since they've built a bunch of houses on top of it.

John

 

[Fearless Tower]

The fun one was at Gillespie Field (KSEE) 27 right. It's a right pattern, and abeam the numbers, there is a small mountain called rattlesnake mountain. So you get the option for a short field and turn in, just skirting the pile of dirt. I haven't done that one in years, but it was fun. I doubt they do it anymore since they've built a bunch of houses on top of it.

John

Every single time I have gone to SEE to do pattern work, I ended up on the left runway...I'll have to ask for the right one of these days.

 

[Jaybird180]

http://www.planecrashmap.com/plane/co/N3015L

If the accident pilot, with his experience, had problems, and my neighbor, with his experience, cautions me - I'm listening.

This is not related to your situation. The accident pilot missed the approach for RNWY 11 and then asked the tower to clear him to land on 29 (with a 6kt/11g tailwind).

One time I was offered a short final for an airliner landing on a crossing runway. I accepted, turned base right about at the end of the runway, turned final, and in short order realized I wasn't going to make it.

I went around. End of story. (Although my friends still recount it as "The time we were almost hit by a jet").

This is the reason, I'd do neither. The tower made their problem your problem.

Although you made it safely, ask yourself what the NTSB report would say if you didn't. The report would most certainly blame you if you had a collision on the short or collision crossing over a runway with and aircraft on final approach.

 

[gkainz]

This is not related to your situation. The accident pilot missed the approach for RNWY 11 and then asked the tower to clear him to land on 29 (with a 6kt/11g tailwind).

Not sure where you see that? The report says (in part)

"According to the air traffic control tower (ATCT) voice transcripts, the pilot contacted the ATCT at 1214, "ten miles to the north northeast sixty five hundred with Quebec." The controller acknowledged and directed the airplane to enter a right downwind for runway two nine right. The pilot of the accident airplane reported downwind and the tower controller requested "Lance one five lima can you give me a short approach [?]" (The recording had a sound of mike activation; however, this sound was not reflected in the transcript.) The controller cleared the accident airplane to "make short approach runway two niner right cleared to land." The pilot of the accident airplane acknowledged the clearance to land. "

 

[Fearless Tower]

This is the reason, I'd do neither. The tower made their problem your problem..

It isn't their 'problem'. The tower could care less. The short approach is offered as a way of getting you down sooner so that you don't have to fly for a few miles out of the pattern on an extended downwind. If you don't want the short approach, it's no sweat off the tower's back.

Although you made it safely, ask yourself what the NTSB report would say if you didn't. The report would most certainly blame you if you had a collision on the short or collision crossing over a runway with and aircraft on final approach.

Actually no - at the point that the tower clears you and you accept the clearance for the short approach, it becomes the tower and the guy who is now cleared number 2 to avoid you. First off, the tower is not going to offer the short approach if the jet is moving so fast that there is risk of collision - in that case they will extend your downwind without giving you an option. When you are given the short approach, the runway becomes yours. The jet must now wait and hope that you don't dilly dally getting it down and clearing the runway before he gets there. If you do, he is going to have to go around or the tower is going to tell him to go around.

The scenario given has some implications, but midair collision is really not one of them. We are not talking about the tower giving you a short approach with the jet on a 3 mile final - that isn't likely to happen and if for some reason, you get a green controller who does something that stupid, then I would agree - don't accept the clearance.

With a short approach, the issues are safety and courtesy. First, can you safely make the short approach without damaging your airplane like the gentleman did in the Lance. Second is the courtesy thing - can you get it down and clear the runway in sufficient time to prevent the guy behind from having to go around while observing the first priority. If you observe number 1, but fail at number 2, you may be considered a rude jackaxx, but you won't have done anything illegal.

 

[Richard]

My best short approach was at mid-field TWR asked if I would accept. Constant pitch, constant bank worked out perfectly. I passed over a pair of Saab 340s taxiing at about 100 agl and squeaked it to a greaser. Every dog has it's day.

I always have wondered if the pax in the commuters saw me 'buzz' them and thought small planes are dangerous.

 

[Danos]

So here's a question - in my experience, the most expensive airplane to operate typically gets priority, even if the less expensive aircraft is a bit closer time wise. But that's from my seat of flying relatively inexpensive aircraft. When I go into FRG and there are 20 Cherokees coming in, they give me priority in the Aztec/310. When I go into Montreal, they give the jets priority over me, but still fit me in pretty well.

Do you find it the same on the other side of the fence?

I got my PPL at Teterboro and that was one if the first lessons I learned. All of my instruction had to be done by the late afternoon otherwise I could forget about getting out of there.