short field landings - too high on final

[woodstock]

last week we stayed in the pattern for short fields. I had to do one go around - too high (maybe 200 feet AGL?) and too fast (about 70) on final - fairly short final but I don't remember where exactly now. it was clearly not going to happen, if I dropped my nose to get down I would pick up speed, I guess raising it some might steepen the descent and slow me down but I didn't - went around.

tomorrow I learn forward slips.

can something like that be saved? would a forward slip have fixed it? or for that matter, raising the nose to slow down and then it would steepen the descent once it settled - or perhaps we were too close to even try that (i.e. you'd zoom up for a little bit before coming back down again).

I don't remember how close we were when I made my decision to go around - I know that's important too.

 

[grattonja]

last week we stayed in the pattern for short fields. I had to do one go around - too high (maybe 200 feet AGL?) and too fast (about 70) on final - fairly short final but I don't remember where exactly now. it was clearly not going to happen, if I dropped my nose to get down I would pick up speed, I guess raising it some might steepen the descent and slow me down but I didn't - went around.

tomorrow I learn forward slips.

can something like that be saved? would a forward slip have fixed it? or for that matter, raising the nose to slow down and then it would steepen the descent once it settled - or perhaps we were too close to even try that (i.e. you'd zoom up for a little bit before coming back down again).

I don't remember how close we were when I made my decision to go around - I know that's important too.

I have saved some pretty high and pretty hot approaches with a forward slip. Sometimes, though, you just got to go around and try again. No sin in it at all. Most here will tell you that it is better to make a go around then to try to salvage something that can't/shouldn't be salvaged.

Jim G

 

[wsuffa]

You can slip it in if you do it at the right time. It is a great way to lose altitude fast.

I assume you were fully power-off? Use power to control altitude....

The DE I used for my Commercial likes seeing folks do slips. Shows good control of the airplane.

But don't hesitate to go around if you botch it.

 

[Greebo]

If you're demonstrating a Short field landing to the DE, and you're in this situation, and you "Save it", you could get raised eyebrows, where as if you say, this setup is no good, can we try it again? and go around, you'll make him happy.

If you're demonstrating emergency field landings and you're in this situation, then you can say "we need to lose speed and height fast to make the field so I'm going to slip it in" because thats a simulated emergency where you HAVE to save the landing.

But the standard short field landing - if you don't HAVE to land that time around, its better to save it by going around and lining it up right.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

last week we stayed in the pattern for short fields. I had to do one go around - too high (maybe 200 feet AGL?) and too fast (about 70) on final - fairly short final but I don't remember where exactly now. it was clearly not going to happen, if I dropped my nose to get down I would pick up speed, I guess raising it some might steepen the descent and slow me down but I didn't - went around.

tomorrow I learn forward slips.

can something like that be saved? would a forward slip have fixed it? or for that matter, raising the nose to slow down and then it would steepen the descent once it settled - or perhaps we were too close to even try that (i.e. you'd zoom up for a little bit before coming back down again).

I don't remember how close we were when I made my decision to go around - I know that's important too.

There's nothing wrong with a slip, and there are airports that because of obstacles make slips after clearing the obstacle almost mandatory. As others said, there's no harm in going around either. My primary instructor (airplane) always teaches his students how to do a forward slip, and it's a useful tool.

 

[MSmith]

If you're too high and fast, you have to do something about it or you'll be landing long at best. If you have a short field, going around is best.

One thing to consider is how high and how fast. In a lot of small planes, if you pull power and get down the the correct airspeed, you'll lose that altitude pretty quickly anyway and you can just add power back when you're back on the glide slope.

 

[Ken Ibold]

it was clearly not going to happen.

Nuff said. If it isn't gonna happen, don't try to force it. But you already knew that.

Slips are FUN!! Fear them not. They are a great tool for adding and removing drag incrementally and at will.

 

[Brian Austin]

If you're demonstrating a Short field landing to the DE, and you're in this situation, and you "Save it", you could get raised eyebrows, where as if you say, this setup is no good, can we try it again? and go around, you'll make him happy.

Don't ask, just do it. It's not the DE's decision, it's the PIC's.

 

[Henning]

last week we stayed in the pattern for short fields. I had to do one go around - too high (maybe 200 feet AGL?) and too fast (about 70) on final - fairly short final but I don't remember where exactly now. it was clearly not going to happen, if I dropped my nose to get down I would pick up speed, I guess raising it some might steepen the descent and slow me down but I didn't - went around.

tomorrow I learn forward slips.

can something like that be saved? would a forward slip have fixed it? or for that matter, raising the nose to slow down and then it would steepen the descent once it settled - or perhaps we were too close to even try that (i.e. you'd zoom up for a little bit before coming back down again).

I don't remember how close we were when I made my decision to go around - I know that's important too.

Yes, a slip would have cured your situation, in an Ag plane I ferry in at 100-300' at full speed until short final then I pull the power stand on the rudder, Balance with opposite aileron and slow it down. Another thing you can do if you're too high, is pull the power and pick up the nose to where you start getting stall buffet, your rate of sink will increase dramatically, and just before you get to your glideslope, you put the nose back down to get your speed back up for flare.I know I'll get flamed from the safety mavens for saying all that, but it's reality and an option. I'm not saying it's the best option, but it is something you should be relatively comfortable with (flirting with stall at very low altitudes) because one day, it may be your only option.
Learn to feel the airplanes and get comfortable with flying at the bottom end of the flight envelope, because when the **** hits the fan, that's exactly where you want to be, at the minimum energy end of the envelope. The less energy you have to dissipate when contacting what ever it is that's gonna absorb the rest of it, the better your chances of avoiding injury and death. I don't think pilots train enough at low altitudes and speed to be comfortable and confident there, and that is a major factor in how you will react once you get there.

 

[BruceAir]

Forward slips are one of the Tasks in the Private Pilot PTS, and they are also among the required pre-solo maneuvers (FAR 61.87)

K. TASK: FORWARD SLIP TO A LANDING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward slip to a landing.
2. Considers the wind conditions, landing surface and obstructions, and selects the most suitable touchdown point.
3. Establishes the slipping attitude at the point from which a landing can be made using the recommended approach and landing configuration and airspeed; adjusts pitch attitude and power as required.
4. Maintains a ground track aligned with the runway center/landing path and an airspeed, which results in minimum float during the roundout.
5. Makes smooth, timely, and correct control application during the recovery from the slip, the roundout, and the touchdown.
6. Touches down smoothly at the approximate stalling speed, at or within 400 feet (120 meters) beyond a specified point, with no side drift, and with the airplane's longitudinal axis aligned with and overthe runway center/landing path.
7. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout the approach and landing sequence.
8. Completes the appropriate checklist.

You can find a good description of slips and short-field landings (and faulty approaches and landings), in Chapter 8, "Chapter 8—Approaches and Landings" in the Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3a).

 

[Ken Ibold]

Learn to feel the airplanes and get comfortable with flying at the bottom end of the flight envelope, because when the **** hits the fan, that's exactly where you want to be, at the minimum energy end of the envelope. The less energy you have to dissipate when contacting what ever it is that's gonna absorb the rest of it, the better your chances of avoiding injury and death. I don't think pilots train enough at low altitudes and speed to be comfortable and confident there, and that is a major factor in how you will react once you get there.

I could not agree more.

 

[BillG]

Also necessary, Henning, if you're too high and fast into a one-way strip. You might not be able to go around.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Hi Beth,


Just now got back from a long weekend flight in the Idaho Backcountry and read of your LDG/go around.

After years flying in and out of there, I just went around TWICE at a long, 3000 foot strip that I never considered much of a challenge (Big Creek, ID elv. ~5000+FT) and both go arounds were after slipping with full rudder & nose down, even after we were on a stabilized, 60 knot short final approach ! Turns out there was quite a down draft at about that last 1/4 mile from threshold. Even the light, powerful Super Cubs along with our flight sat up and took notice on their LDGs, so I didn't question in hindsight my own safe decision to abort the forward slips and go around before there was no room left to maneuver in the mountain vally with not only high DA, but only an anemic, fully loaded SkyHawk to battle it with !

We later flew around & into Soldier Bar and Shearer ID and some other shorter strips but, they're not much of a challenge in the STOL overkill that the Super Cub and Super Cruisers epitomize.

Always go around early or in enough time to clear obstacles, UNLESS its a real engine out, in which case, forward slip like hell until ready to straighten out then land as best you can. An over run at that point is usually the lessor evil...

last week we stayed in the pattern for short fields. I had to do one go around - too high (maybe 200 feet AGL?) and too fast (about 70) on final - fairly short final but I don't remember where exactly now. it was clearly not going to happen, if I dropped my nose to get down I would pick up speed, I guess raising it some might steepen the descent and slow me down but I didn't - went around.

tomorrow I learn forward slips.

can something like that be saved? would a forward slip have fixed it? or for that matter, raising the nose to slow down and then it would steepen the descent once it settled - or perhaps we were too close to even try that (i.e. you'd zoom up for a little bit before coming back down again).

I don't remember how close we were when I made my decision to go around - I know that's important too.

 

[woodstock]

thanks Dave and everyone.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Good luck !

BTW:

I was generally filming for mountainflyingvideos.com these last few flights and might have had the film rolling for that go-around... but maybe not, because I don't consider it THAT challenging of an airstrip compared with the ultra high RHI airstrips in that region.

One second ~60 knots, then few seconds and over 100 ! Not that good with DA over 6000 no matter where you are fying.

thanks Dave and everyone.

 

[Richard]

Yes, a slip would have cured your situation, in an Ag plane I ferry in at 100-300' at full speed until short final then I pull the power stand on the rudder, Balance with opposite aileron and slow it down. Another thing you can do if you're too high, is pull the power and pick up the nose to where you start getting stall buffet, your rate of sink will increase dramatically, and just before you get to your glideslope, you put the nose back down to get your speed back up for flare.I know I'll get flamed from the safety mavens for saying all that, but it's reality and an option. I'm not saying it's the best option, but it is something you should be relatively comfortable with (flirting with stall at very low altitudes) because one day, it may be your only option.
Learn to feel the airplanes and get comfortable with flying at the bottom end of the flight envelope, because when the **** hits the fan, that's exactly where you want to be, at the minimum energy end of the envelope. The less energy you have to dissipate when contacting what ever it is that's gonna absorb the rest of it, the better your chances of avoiding injury and death. I don't think pilots train enough at low altitudes and speed to be comfortable and confident there, and that is a major factor in how you will react once you get there.

Henning, I think most here understand you are not the apprentice pilot so they'll cut you some slack. When I read Elizabeth's post about raising the nose the first thing I thought was getting behind the curve and running out of altitude before recovering. Even you, with your experience, admit it is not the best option.

I have done it a couple times on final but it was all planned well in advance and was not some spur of the moment reaction. Even now, I'll probably avoid it.

Certainly, this should be done by only the most experienced and/or foolhardy who is proficient in that type aircraft.

I love slips, they are one of my most favorite tricks in the bag. Still, it's all about recognizing the situation beforehand and not simply a spur of the moment decision to slip. Said another way, a slip is a good way to get down but does not mean a go around is even then out of the question.

Said another way, the more experienced one is the earlier one recognizes the situation. The ealier one recognizes the situation the more options there are available.

Even then, experience may be saying to just go around.

 

[Ghery]

Slips are handy. Last month I was getting a BFR. I'd been under the hood for a while and when the foggles came off I was just abeam the airport at about 3,000 MSL. Tower cleared us for a T&G and all of a sudden I was downwind, about 1800 feet above the pattern. Did an extended downwind, slipping like mad to get the 182 down to a reasonable altitude before turning base. Worked just fine. Slips are good to learn and use. You can really dump altitude while keeping your airspeed in check with one.

Have fun!

 

[woodstock]

forgot to mention - this was in the NEW plane. had I been in 242AV, I would have had 40 degrees of flaps and I am sure I would have brought it in, then.

thanks again!

 

[Greebo]

Don't ask, just do it. It's not the DE's decision, it's the PIC's.

Good point. I should have said, Go around, and then after the aircraft is stabilized, ask about doing it again. I did not mean to sound as if one should ask the DE about going around.

 

[Henning]

Henning, I think most here understand you are not the apprentice pilot so they'll cut you some slack. When I read Elizabeth's post about raising the nose the first thing I thought was getting behind the curve and running out of altitude before recovering. Even you, with your experience, admit it is not the best option.

Said another way, the more experienced one is the earlier one recognizes the situation. The ealier one recognizes the situation the more options there are available.

Even then, experience may be saying to just go around.

Correct, it will rarely be your best option, however it should be something every pilot is at least familiar with. Think of it the same way as spin training. You don't ever want to have to use spin recovery, and hopefully you never will have to use it, but should the time arise when it becomes your only option, you want to at least have a feel for the manuver, even if it's just a nodding aquaintance with the sink rate available and the height it takes to get your speed back up. There are times when "Go around" is NOT an option.

 

[poadeleted3]

forgot to mention - this was in the NEW plane. had I been in 242AV, I would have had 40 degrees of flaps and I am sure I would have brought it in, then.

thanks again!

I've been having issues in the new Skyhawks of being high and fast also. Had to go spend some time in the pattern trying to beat it, but it's still something I need to work on. I do miss the extra 10 degrees of flaps, but the new planes just seem to be a little slicker for some reason. They don't slow down as fast. Maybe they just aren't bent yet

 

[gismo]

Henning, I think most here understand you are not the apprentice pilot so they'll cut you some slack. When I read Elizabeth's post about raising the nose the first thing I thought was getting behind the curve and running out of altitude before recovering. Even you, with your experience, admit it is not the best option.

I have done it a couple times on final but it was all planned well in advance and was not some spur of the moment reaction. Even now, I'll probably avoid it.

Richard, I had a similar reaction to the "just go ahead and slip it in" concept WRT a student learning to land. In order to pull this off one needs to have a reasonably good feel for how aggressively and how long to apply the slip. The fact that your ASI will be in error complicates this as well especially for a low time pilot who may lack the ability to "feel" the proper AOA during a slip.

That said, I do believe this is a very useful tool to have in your bag of tricks and there's no better situation to learn the nuances of a big slip on final than with a CFI aboard. And within reason, there's little need to abandon a botched approach until it becomes clear that there's too much excess energy to dissapate in a slip. I would be comfortable taking a full slip right down to the point where a normal flare/tochdown should occur and making the land/abort decision there based on airspeed, altitude, and remaining runway. With the exception of very short/obstructed runways, I think the typical problem with an overshoot from a fast/high approach is the result of carrying that excess energy well beyond the normal touchdown point.

 

[Henning]

I've been having issues in the new Skyhawks of being high and fast also. Had to go spend some time in the pattern trying to beat it, but it's still something I need to work on. I do miss the extra 10 degrees of flaps, but the new planes just seem to be a little slicker for some reason. They don't slow down as fast. Maybe they just aren't bent yet

Yep, the new ones just haven't been pounded out of rig yet, give em some time.

 

[Richard]

Richard, I had a similar reaction to the "just go ahead and slip it in" concept WRT a student learning to land. In order to pull this off one needs to have a reasonably good feel for how aggressively and how long to apply the slip. The fact that your ASI will be in error complicates this as well especially for a low time pilot who may lack the ability to "feel" the proper AOA during a slip.

That said, I do believe this is a very useful tool to have in your bag of tricks and there's no better situation to learn the nuances of a big slip on final than with a CFI aboard. And within reason, there's little need to abandon a botched approach until it becomes clear that there's too much excess energy to dissapate in a slip. I would be comfortable taking a full slip right down to the point where a normal flare/tochdown should occur and making the land/abort decision there based on airspeed, altitude, and remaining runway. With the exception of very short/obstructed runways, I think the typical problem with an overshoot from a fast/high approach is the result of carrying that excess energy well beyond the normal touchdown point.

I was talking about pulling the nose up for the low power decent. I've done that a couple of times but will be very careful of when and where I use that particular maneuver.

OTOH, I love slips and will use 'em sometimes for no reason at all. Then again, I hardly ever perform a normal take off or landing.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I was talking about pulling the nose up for the low power decent. I've done that a couple of times but will be very careful of when and where I use that particular maneuver.

OTOH, I love slips and will use 'em sometimes for no reason at all. Then again, I hardly ever perform a normal take off or landing.

Slips of all kinds are kinda becoming a pet peeve with me, and even a few examiners are dismayed that pilots, even if they remember how to do a slip, aren't nearly aggressive enough with the maneuver to really do some good.

Like most maneuvers, slips are safe when done properly and certainly not complicated, so all pilots worthy of the title and wings should take pride in being able to do an aggressive slip competently, even if they're the non-aggressive, non-confrontational type of pilot ! (sorry)

 

[Henning]

Slips of all kinds are kinda becoming a pet peeve with me, and even a few examiners are dismayed that pilots, even if they remember how to do a slip, aren't nearly aggressive enough with the maneuver to really do some good.

Like most maneuvers, slips are safe when done properly and certainly not complicated, so all pilots worthy of the title and wings should take pride in being able to do an aggressive slip competently, even if they're the non-aggressive, non-confrontational type of pilot ! (sorry)

I used to think it was soo funny. Most the students I would get were pretty high time for students, so I know right away there are emotional considerations at play here, no problem, I'm a pshrinks kid (clinical director of a State Hospital no less, All the Loonies, none of the money) and grew up bowling with the loonies among other duties. Slipping was always one of my evaluation manuvers to see how they react and implement. The ones that were looking to aviation to find confidence and courage (BTW, I'm not knocking that as a reason to learn how to fly, actually I recommend it, I tell em "At least solo, then you can walk away or continue as you please, you've done it, you'll have trusted your life to yourself.") just put in these little tiny slips, the ball wouldn't even be half over. What I tought was full rudder, to the floor, full opposite aileron and hard forward. hold for a moment and watch the plane react as it comes to it's new equilibrium, and ease either rudder or aileron to match full input of the other, and keep the wind noise up using the elevator. Do Not Look Down The Nose!!! Watch the perspective lines of the runway and as you get down to where you need to be, release all input and stabilize the plane on your glide slope.