Short Field landing

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by 4RNB, Mar 14, 2021.

  1. 4RNB

    4RNB Pre-takeoff checklist

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    1974 C 172M
    Stall speed no flaps 57mph
    Stall speed full flaps 49
    Last meeting with CFI I really F'd up short field landings, off centerline, floated way past me marks. Locked up tires. I did not recall ever being so horribly awful. Came home with tail tucked between my legs. CFI said mock check ride was graded a B up until then.

    So I am testing in a week. Was able to set up my Iphone for two landings. Earlier I had issues with speeds being fast, especially on final. Vid looks like I could get busted for being too slow, will keep an eye out on that. I aim for the start of the 150 white stripes to be start of imaginary short field.
    3 and 8 minutes marks if you want to just watch final.
    Fingers indicate (x10) the flap settings. 40 is added end of final.

    Comments? Good enough for check ride?
    Thanks, random people on the internets

     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
  2. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Those speeds are based on full gross. Adjust for what the plane actually weighs.
     
  3. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    I’m no CFI, and an average pilot. My only word of advice is to try to stay coordinated in your turns in the pattern. I see a tendency to use a lot of rudder while trying to shallow the turn or almost use opposite aileron. I defer to other experts now...

    Sorry to not answer your question.
     
  4. 4RNB

    4RNB Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks. How? I've not seen the adjustment formula in the POH.
    How were the landings? Good enuf for checkride?
     
  5. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    My response has nothing to do with your landings, but rather what I was taught to help avoid base-to-final stall-spin incidents. Just stay coordinated as a matter of discipline. Center the ball in the turn coordinator (“step on the ball”). But again, I defer to others with more hours and a CFI cert, especially your own CFI.
     
  6. 4RNB

    4RNB Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You see those things in the video? I see the ball move some, seems like not enough rudder
     
  7. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    I want to be careful to not screw up your training. I’m just a dude on the internet.
     
  8. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    I see it too. 10° banked skidding turns in the pattern. Not correct technique.
     
  9. 4RNB

    4RNB Pre-takeoff checklist

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    THanks, I agree
     
  10. Joe_B1

    Joe_B1 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Short field landings do not require short finals. Give yourself enough time to stabilize your approach.
     
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  11. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I only watched the two landings from final. I couldn't figure out why you were adding quite a bit of power on short final. both times you kept adding more, then more, then more, then just chopping power in the flair. I'm no CFI either, but I would say no, not checkride ready. but not too far off. if others are saying poor technique all thru the pattern, which I didn't watch, then def not checkride ready. also, vertical video. there, I said it.
     
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  12. Tools

    Tools Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Seem ok to me. Good a/s, normal rate of descent. Not really sure where you intended to touch down, if you were long you were simply too high. Nice slow nose high touch downs.

    You will simply have bad days, don’t let that shake you.

    Only criticism I have is maybe flying too fast. First one 80 all the way, second closer to 70. Nothing wrong with the simple and nearly universal 80 down wind, 70 cross wind and 60 final. You will have better control of where you touch down

    I couldn’t tell where the power was. If you’re at 80 and idle, too much energy. Seemed like 70-80 and a little power based on how fast airspeed bled in the flare, so probably ok there.

    You’ll do fine next week! Let us know!!

    Mike
     
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  13. brcase

    brcase Pattern Altitude

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    Took me a bit to understand you were aiming for the beginning of the 1000ft markers. Actually I thought the short field approach’s looked fine. Maybe a bit flat but looks like you would have cleared a 50ft obstacle at the end of the runway.

    As I recall Short field approach speed for the 172 is 68mph. You look a bit over that prior to the runway but looked fine after crossing the threshold getting down to about 60 which I recall is about right for a lightly loaded 172. You might try about 65mph approach speed from a bit further out and a bit less power for a steeper approach. Maybe try crossing the the threshold about about 200ft on the altimeter and see if you can still touch down on the thousand foot markers.

    I do agree with the shallow turn comments and I have done flights between airports that was shorter than your base leg. You rarely exceeded even a standard rate turn and compensated for that with to much rudder which is a great setup for a stall spin if you were to get to slow. Instead bank steeper and and use less rudder. For me a normal pattern turn is 20-30degrees on bank. Windy day downwind to base turn might even be 40 degrees. The straight section of the base leg is just long enough for me to lift the wing for about a 2 second look for traffic behind it and then start the final turn. Keeping the base short also makes it a bit easier and quicker to do a bit longer final, although your final looked plenty long.

    Brian
    CFIIG/ASEL
     
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  14. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    The rule of thumb for approach speed is 1.3 Vso. S a full-flap stall of 49 would give an approach speed of 64 knots. 70 and 80 is way too high, and you'll float halfway down the runway if you maintain that right to the flare. At 80 knots the airplane has 56% more kinetic energy than at 64 knots, and this really screws up a short-field landing.

    Besides that, there's such a thing as round-out, and this is separate from the flare. The power needs to come off and the nose start to come up before the airplane gets into ground effect, to bleed off speed. Remember that the stall speed is lower in ground effect, too, adding to the float problem.

    upload_2021-3-14_20-58-59.jpeg

    Some are afraid of stalling on final so they keep the speed up. The only cure for that is to go to altitude and try gliding, full flaps, at 1.3Vso and then start raising the nose to see how long it takes to stall the thing and what the airspeed says at that point.

    Adding power on final like that wasn't necessary. There was plenty of speed. Adding power without raising the nose just increases the speed.

    One more thing: Though this didn't occur here, finding yourself too high on short final cannot be fixed by diving at the runway. That just adds speed that you now have to get rid of in ground effect.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
  15. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Fly to the aim point. Arrive at the aim point with the proper airspeed and altitude. If you are fast you will float past your land spot. If you are too high at the aim point, that height + the weight of the plane is energy that must dissipate before you can touch down.
    As you arrive at the aim point, judge how much energy you have in the plane and how much you need to get to touch down area. Once what you need = what you have reduce throttle to idle and land.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
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  16. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    If you aim at some point, you'll float past it in the flare. I always found it better to aim at the runway edge and I'd get the touchdown point I wanted. The flight path levels off as you round out and flare; the line on approach intersects the ground at a closer spot than the actual touchdown.
     
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  17. 4RNB

    4RNB Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Trust me, some people will find out how I did sooner than others!
    I intended to touch down where I touched down, paint just real light there.
    The 1000 ft markers are 150 ft in length per google maps distance measuring tool. So I aim to land in the paint, not before, but know I have 50 feet more for standards.
     
  18. 4RNB

    4RNB Pre-takeoff checklist

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    POH only says 70 final, nothing else on speed. Pg 26 of the ACS says +10/-5 knots plus gust factor is the standard.
    So, lots of comments hinting at or directly commenting on turn bank. I guess that means you all think the turns should be steeper?
    I was trying for a long final to make it stabilized, where I wanted to be.
    While capable or shortening the base leg, I'm not sure why I should. 2nd landing had a larger plane taking off while I was on base.
     
  19. 4RNB

    4RNB Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thank you, I was aiming before the touchdown.
     
  20. 4RNB

    4RNB Pre-takeoff checklist

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  21. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

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    Definitely watch coordination on turns. Each turn in the pattern had the ball out of center in a skidding turn. As others have said, those turns need a touch more bank and less rudder. Standard rate or less is probably OK. Keep the ball centered. My instructor would have definitely dinged me for that, and rightly so.

    Personally I like to carry more power in the flare for more control, especially in a gusty breeze, but that's just me.
     
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  22. champ driver

    champ driver Line Up and Wait

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    It's not the bank angle as much as the turn coordination that needs work. At 2:52 I saw the ball move from one side to the other side. Unless you're going from a skidding turn to a slip to compinsate for a left crosswind, you shouldn't need to do that. The left wing low for the x-wind part is fine, but not the skid in the turn before that.
    Work on basic coordination in the pattern. Set up a stable final, on speed and alitude, and adjust as you add flaps, don't forget to use trim to hold that stable speed and power for desent rate.
    Turn coordination and stable speed control, basic building blocks for flying.
    Get a few hours this week to nail down those basic things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2021
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  23. 4RNB

    4RNB Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks, that is my sense of things also. The pattern turns are as I've done them with CFIs, except for the ball being off. I was missing important details.
     
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  24. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    That works if you get the plane slowed down and low enough. Arrive at the runway edge a little high and a tad fast it won’t work.
     
  25. TommyG

    TommyG Pattern Altitude

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    Your coordinated turns needs a lot of work, every turn the ball was way outside. But you should get slower as little further out, get your airspeed to where you want, and adjust power as needed for the descent rate. Put your aim point close to the numbers. Looks like you are shooting for the 1000 ft mark.
     
  26. brcase

    brcase Pattern Altitude

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    My main concern is the shallow banks. This can indicate a fear of banking to much which can lead to skidded turns (like you were doing) which can lead to stall spins. Especially when distracted or in unfamiliar situations.

    The long base is concern is two parts, safety and efficiency. When I started instructing I realized I could easily be spending nearly 8 hours per day in traffic pattern in a number of airplanes of various levels of maintenance. It seemed logical to me that I might have a higher than average chance of having a power failure in the traffic pattern and if possible I want it to be able to glide the runway for as much of the pattern as possible. It also doesn’t hurt that will usually pull the power back to idle a few times per day and have my students demonstrate a power failure scenario. My clients are often paying a lot of money for my time and the airplane and eventually may be flying airplanes that cost even more to operate. Any time we can be efficient without compromising safety tends to make everyone happy. I am at least on my second hand for counting accidents I know of where a plane lost power in the pattern and failed to make it to the runway. Pilots should be better at handling this, but on the other hand we rarely hear about all the guys that do it just fine. After you get you rating have your instructor show you how to perform the power off 180 to commercial standards. There is a reason the FAA requires this maneuver for commercial pilots.

    I think a lot of pilots don’t really understand what the FAA means by a stabilized approach. But an unstablized approach is easy to recognize, mostly it is just over controlling the airplane and overshooting your targeted, headings or attitude. It can be overuse of throttle and or flaps. Some people interpreted a stablized approach as a long power on approach. My question is does that mean I can’t do a stablized approach in my glider? IMO length of the final or base leg or power setting has nothing to do with if an approach is stablized or not.

    Back to your original question about short field landings I didn’t see much issue with them. I couldn’t see what your power settings were, But very little about the approach except maybe the bit of a flat angle looked to be an issue for me. Typically I aim to fly the descent at about a constant power setting of about 1300-1500RPM in the 172. Especially for Short Field approach. IF I need to I will adjust power to adjust my descent angle but the perfect approach for me is when the only power adjustment I make after starting the descent is to pull the power back to idle just as I clear my obstacle.
    My Short Field approach’s typically do have bit longer final, but really should not be that much different for you as you are already adding at least 500 feet of more just by aiming for the 1000 ft markers. I assume you usually aim to touch down prior to them (500 ft is kind of the sweet spot, on many runways).

    Of course you also need to do it the way your instructor wants or recommends, especially since he is prepping you for the check ride and may know what the examiner prefers. After you get you rating then you can start compiling what you learn from various pilots and instructors for your preferences.

    Brian
    CFIIG/ASEL
     
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  27. Arnold

    Arnold Cleared for Takeoff

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    It is great to see so many people encouraging short patterns. Coordinated turns. Steep approaches. If its not an instrument approach keep it high and tight.

    Bank shyness may be the result of a misconception. A pilot might regard a 30 degree bank as excessive maneuvering - some even call it a steep turn, but it not. A 30 degree bank is only a 10% increase in load factor (see: https://s30378.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/p1asn1eaa179a1pt1e8b1sc61gv7a.jpg or any of dozens of other versions on the inter tubes). If your stall speed is 40 KIAS (See 1989 C-172 AFM). 1.3 VSo is 52 KIAS. Stall at 30 degree bank is 44 KIAS giving you an eight knot margin, plenty in a low and slow airplane on a calm day. A 30 degree bank is my preference in the pattern, all other things being equal. It results in a nice tight pattern and it improves your traffic avoidance as your view is obscured for the shortest time.
     
  28. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Nope, the ball is swinging to the outside of the turn. He's putting in too much left rudder in his turns. I agree with brcase's analysis. This is a VERY bad habit to develop.
     
  29. Arnold

    Arnold Cleared for Takeoff

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    I don't disagree. Indeed skidding turns are deadly. However his banks are very shallow. This will lead to the tendency to push one's nose around with one's feet. While it is all well and good to say "don't skid your turns" there is an underlying cause. In this case it appears to me to be under banking.
     
  30. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    Airplanes like the 172 commonly forgive skidding. Then the new pilot goes and buys what he can afford--some old design like a Champ--and he continues skidding until one day he's just a little slow, and the airplane kills him.

    When I did taildragger checkouts in the Citabrias I would take skid-happy student up to altitude and get the thing into a descending skidding turn, letting the speed bleed down some, and the resulting spin and altitude loss convinced the student never to skid it again in the pattern.
     
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  31. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    I fly short final at 60kts in my 182. I’d imagine a 172 is close
     
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