Shootings at VT! (Original thread on the tragedy - Off-topic will be moved)

Re: Shootings at VT!

And the sad thing is that in addition to the Murders of these poor folks at Va Tech. The cops are left with a bad taste having to treat all the kids as potential shooters and the innocent kids are victimized for having to be treated this way. This guys actions just have hurt so so many beyond the obvious dead, wounded and family.
 
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The lead phrase on the DC Fox TV news tonight:

"This is the day that changed America".

Fair and balanced, my ***. As tragic as this is, it's not the same thing as what happened on 9/11.
 
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wsuffa said:
Actually, Tom, most (and I stress not all, but most) police training is to treat everyone as a potential criminal until they are proven not to be. Call it threat mitigation, or anything you want, but the end result is the same. Some police acadamies outright say "treat everyone as if they are a criminal until proven otherwise".

Now, having said that, I will point you back to my comment that the police want to stop a criminal before there is more carnage. What gets trampled are individual rights. We can have a long discussion here and include the cases where the cops get the wrong house and slam gramma into the floor, but it won't solve anything.

From a public relations standpoint, and politically, they may have no choice. That's the way it is. The "gun control" and "authorities did wrong" media are already out in force. It would be more intense if the gunman got away.

No, I don't care to do their jobs. But I am *very* concerned for our freedoms.
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No, Bill - as a former police detective that's just not my experience. We were trained to treat everyone as a possible THREAT, not as a criminal. Otherwise EVERYone would be on the floor in handcuffs. Period. Because that's what I would do with a criminal.

And you can ignore the hundreds of thousands of arrests across the country and pull out the few "gramma" situations and hold them up as if they were anything but the anomalies they are, but that won't really change the reality of it. These student's rights were not violated by being contained (after refusing to follow commands during an emergency situation involving the public welfare) until such time as they were KNOWN to be no threat.

I'm very concerned about our rights, too - and quite vocal about preserving them, but the courts are QUITE clear on this matter. The police have not only a right, but a need, to contain unknown threats and insure the peace.

edit: And I've pulled guns off of "grandpa's" and know of at least one cop being killed by a "gramma". It's hard to be too old to shoot someone.
 
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This whole thing is really sad. My heart goes out to the families.

Things like THIS are the reason I applied for concealed carry. Had one
person been trained, licensed and carrying this nutcase could have been
stopped before the tally was so high.

I'm sure the gun control crowd will be very active. But the screwballs
and gangsters will find the guns they want and carry them.

RT
 
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Tom,

I'm going to move this part of the discussion to Spin Zone. Please follow it there. The main VT thread will stay here.

Bill
 
Re: Shootings at VT!

wsuffa said:
There are picures of the police forcing students to the ground at gunpoint. While I understand the mentality the police are following, it does disturb me that the folks affected by the shooting - and those trying to escape - were treated as criminals themselves. I am not so quick to characterize the person as a "dumbass" - last time I checked, we still have the presumption of innocence in America. Please note that I understand the police training - they want to stop the criminal to avoid more carnage. /politics off/

No, I can't imagine being there. I hope to never find out.
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Bill I am glad you moved this question to the spin zone. But I am curious about why you posted a request that we not turn the thread into a "political morass" and then followed that up with a posting that would clearly start exactly that type of discussion?
 
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SkyHog said:
As it is, people are blaming the administrators for taking 2 hours to notify students about the first shootings...
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Which is a bunch of bull hockey. That campus is large, about the size of a small town. To expect there to actually be an effective way to 'lock down' the campus is kinda sill if you ask me. more so when there is a murder in any other town you do not lock down the town. I think the admin acted properly and until facts are shown that they did otherwise this lock down brouhaha is the press trying to make a story out of nothing because they had nothing else to talk about.
 
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Bill Jennings said:
I really don't understand the pro gun control crowd. This person did this absolutely knowing he would not encounter any resistance whatsoever. Had he known that some students may have been armed concealed carry, would he have done this? Maybe, maybe not. Would he have had time to kill so many had someone been armed? Doubtful.

Such a sad day in America, college should be a fun, growing experience, not another place to be afraid.
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There is going to be a lot of gun control discussion but I think people are missing the point. This has more to do with a mentally unstable person.

Since the 1980's we as a nation have decided it is not worth our time or money to try and take care of the mentally ill. Most of the homeless people are mentally ill, why? Because they have no place else to go. Most all state hospitals are closed except for the criminally mentally ill. So what happens is that the mentally ill do not get treatment nor are their symptoms recognized so that they can get treatment.

In this case we not there was something wrong with this person . What we do not know yet is if we had effective treatment options would he have been identified and removed from society so as not to act out on his violent impulses.
 
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Folks,

Let's move the gun contol discussion to spin zone.
 
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smigaldi said:
Bill I am glad you moved this question to the spin zone. But I am curious about why you posted a request that we not turn the thread into a "political morass" and then followed that up with a posting that would clearly start exactly that type of discussion?
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No response necessary. Once it turned political, it got moved.
 
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wsuffa said:
No response necessary. Once it turned political, it got moved.
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This is the original thread and it is not in the Spin Zone.

Please keep this thread non-political.
 
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AuntPeggy said:
This is the original thread and it is not in the Spin Zone.

Please keep this thread non-political.
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Correct. I redirected the political discussions to Spin Zone, with the intent to keep keep the politics elsewhere.

Some news on the victims is coming out - at least 3 professors, including one of the top 5 researchers on the study of muscular response & robotics.
 
Re: Shootings at VT!

Truer words have never been spoken
Other students said the school was being treated unfairly by some in the media: "It's just tough to hear all this talk about our school," said freshman Stephen Ellis. "It's probably one of the safest places you could go. Blacksburg is a calm town. This is out of character for this area. One idiot had to go and ruin this all."
Sophomore Dustin Lynch echoed that sentiment: "The press and media have really been taking it hard to the security and police officers. Virginia Tech is a safe campus... You can't possibly prepare for a situation of this scale or something like this. You can't prepare for one crazy person, especially at a campus of this size."
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Link



But this is just wrong!
Students at the London Underground, a nearby bar, walked heavily, many cradling Pabst Blue Ribbons and shots of liquor.
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No matter how bad you feel drinking PBR is just plain wrong!
 
I went to the memorial gathering in Old Town Alexandria tonight. 2500-3000 people there. Very nice, half-hour ceremony. Well worth attending.

The Governor is establishing Friday as a day of memorial. Va Tech is calling for folks to wear burgundy and orange on Friday in tribute.
I may look a little funny wearing a Tech T-shirt under my sport jacket on Friday, but it'll be worth it. Tech gear is hard to come by this week.
 
Well, this is pure genius...

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

April 18, 2007

A senior at Madison School at 300 Old Hickory Boulevard West was arrested this afternoon on a charge of reckless endangerment for putting staff and students in fear by threatening to commit a Virginia Tech-style massacre at the school Wednesday afternoon.
Terrence Johnson, Jr., 18, of Andy Street, walked down a hallway of the special education school at 12:45 p.m. yelling, “Y’all better check my backpack and locker. I’ve got a gun and a knife and I’m gonna do what they did up at Virginia Tech.”
No weapons were found in a search of his locker or person.
“This police department and the school system have absolutely zero tolerance for this type behavior,” Chief Ronal Serpas said. “With Monday’s tragedy at Virginia Tech still fresh on all of our minds, school settings need words of reassurance, not threats.”
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With TV playing the maroon over and over they gave him what he wanted and more and just moved the bar for the next wacko to figure out how to get a higher body count and more pub.
 
mikea said:
With TV playing the maroon over and over they gave him what he wanted and more and just moved the bar for the next wacko to figure out how to get a higher body count and more pub.
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Hmmm... Great minds....

Cho Seung Hui, Superstar

I'm sickened and frightened by the thought -- the near certainty -- that disaffected, depressed, vain, nihilistic loners by the dozen are watching Cho Seung Hui's videos, seeing his dramatic photos posted and published everywhere and thinking...hey!

I can live out my miserable life as an obscure, alienated, misunderstood drone, or I can kill lots of people and be somebody!

To you, to me, to sane people, there is no glory, no allure in the sort of grotesque infamy Cho now has. But, clearly, the very thought inspired him; the knowledge that everyone would know his face, know his name, know what he had done.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2007/04/cho_seung_hui_s.html
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Re: Shootings at VT!

wbarnhill said:
I was telling a "friend" of mine online about the incident and she started saying those things. It's just sickening to think that someone could have that much disrespect.
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Obviously I don't know your online female friend, but said "friend" could be an FBI agent trying to suss out future shooters, or some 42 yr old male nutcase living in his parent's basement hoping to score the same kind of notoriety. Or "she" could be just a silly, unthinking kid who can't grasp the ramifications of such a horrible deed. Any way you cut it, it's a sad statement about society.
 
mikea said:
With TV playing the maroon over and over they gave him what he wanted and more and just moved the bar for the next wacko to figure out how to get a higher body count and more pub.
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Apparently the news media figured out they went over the line. They are pulling out lots of their vans today.
 
They may have gone over the line one this but they had to because of the mess that TV journalism is in and it is of their own making. When they decided that TV news had to make the ratings just like the entertainment divisions the TV news people stopped paying attention to what they should report and instead focused on what to report to get ratings.

That coupled with the lousy job they do in fact checking the stuff the spews forth from press conferences, just taking it all as fact, has put them in the untenable situation where they only way we will watch and believe is if we see and hear the proof ourselves. In this case there had been allegations of his mental status and now we can see just how crazy he really was. Add that to how much NBC got their logo everywhere and you will understand what a rating boon it was to them to put this out.
 
As I predicted we've started to hear how the poor guy was shy and had a speech impediment and people made fun of him for that. I guess the shootings were to be expected then. :no: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
mikea said:
As I predicted we've started to hear how the poor guy was shy and had a speech impediment and people made fun of him for that. I guess the shootings were to be expected then. :no: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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I think the bigger issue is how people noticed he had problem, turned him over to the mental health authorities, who did noting but get a judge to declare him a danger to himself and others, then released him, he stalked two woman and yet WAS STILL NOT TREATED NOR KICKED OUT OF SCHOOL AND was able to buy two hand guns. What the heck is wrong with our system?? Geesh you take a Prozac you are banned from flying forever, but be completely nuts get to stay in school and buy guns?? Something needs to be addressed with both our health and firearms systems for sure.

To adequately affect the mental health system issues we need to understand how this kid managed to get through without someone really noticing that he was a lit powder keg. That is why it is important to review his behaviors, so that we can spot this type of problem person before they go on a killing rampage not to excuse them for it.
 
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Scott,

The more I read, the more I'm convinced that the mental health treatment issue was a breakdown somewhere between the court system and the mental health system. The judge ordered "court-ordered outpatient treatment". The judge's order is online.

I want to know why the outpatient treatment wasn't followed-through or effective. I am hoping the Governor's commission sheds light on it.

<break>

I was pleased to see a fair number of folks wearing maroon and orange, ribbons, or pins yesterday. One guy came to a business breakfast (usually suit and tie) in a Tech T-Shirt. I saw probably a half-dozen or dozen folks on each of my AA commercial flights yesterday wearing same - including several on the DFW-SAT flight at 10:00 last night. I wore a maroon/orange tie for my meetings, and put on a T-shirt after they were done. The pilots took a couple of minutes to talk with me about Tech.

I'm sure students, parents, and faculty were grateful for the support.
 
wsuffa said:
Scott,

The more I read, the more I'm convinced that the mental health treatment issue was a breakdown somewhere between the court system and the mental health system. The judge ordered "court-ordered outpatient treatment". The judge's order is online.

I want to know why the outpatient treatment wasn't followed-through or effective. I am hoping the Governor's commission sheds light on it.
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I know it was sad that it did not get followed through. Also that the report did not hit the gun database right either otherwise he may have been prevented from obtaining those guns. Multiple failures :(:mad::(
 
smigaldi said:
I think the bigger issue is how people noticed he had problem, turned him over to the mental health authorities, who did noting but get a judge to declare him a danger to himself and others, then released him, ...
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It's partly because there has been a civil rights movement for the mentally ill.

I called my brother who is a retired cop when I picked up my childhood buddy who was wandering the streets. He had been in and out of the lousy state mental institutions for all of his life. My brother said a cop can't do a thing unless the guy is an obvious danger to himself or others. The theory is that cops aren't doctors so they can't make judgements on sanity.

We can imagine that it was fairly arbitrary and wide open for abuse in the old days. In Tennesee Williams's plays like "A Streetcar Named Desire" you can see that apparently all that was required in the 1930s-1940s was to call up the asylum to have the doctor and nurse stop by for a pick up.

As you said, the system broke down, but I think the system and the people working it have a lot of obstacles to make the gaps that this guy fell through. I imagine that even when a psychiatrist is willing to sign an involuntary commitment they have a considerable risk of getting sued for doing it. Each individual along the way probably feels safer passing the problem on and avoiding having their name on any papers with a permanent disposition.
 
Retracted in response to Bill's concern below.
 
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Folks, if we're going to continue a discussion of the poltics of mental health, please start a new thread in Spin Zone.

Thanks.
 
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