Shock cooling

Fascinating how much money they get for the Texas Skyways IO-520 and IO-550 upgrades. I think I'll start calling them Texa$ $kyway$, like Micro$oft.

You sure you're not confusing 'em with someone else? The Texas Skyways conversions are the cheapest ones in that HP range, or were when I first found out about them. We briefly looked at them but we were mainly looking for the quickest way to get an engine back on the front of the plane because it was June - Prime flying season, according to most people - and TX Skyways couldn't build us an engine any faster than anyone else. Also, the price looked really high at first, especially once the prop was considered, so we decided against it - But after all was said and done, we needed a new prop anyway and comparing our final bill with the Skyways quote, it wasn't that much more. Probably the same $/hp. We really didn't need the extra power or fuel burn anyway, though. In your case, it'd be more useful.

At the time we had to make the decision, nothing made more sense than going back to Poplar Grove, and I am VERY happy with the work they did.
 
Speaking of unreliable gauges - back in the day, we used to "jet" our motorcycle engines by the exhaust color. We were always looking for a medium tan color to find the proper jetting or in pilot parlance, mixture. I do a lot of full throttle flying right over the airport with the mixture full rich and when I do, I'm getting black exhaust stacks - which is perfect because I'm running full power and RPM at really low airspeeds alot and cool is good. When I land after flying even a 20 minute cruise at 65% power at what my EGT gauge is showing about 50 ROP I get white exhaust stacks. I know I'm ROP (leaning raises temps) so I'm now confused. White exhaust means too lean, right?

Any of you engine gurus have any thoughts? Should I be targeting more like 100 ROP? It's tempting to run as lean as possible since the plane is basically a fuel emergency when I take off but am I running the engine properly? It's an AEIO 540/ 260 hp.

Since no one has chimed in to your question I will throw in my .02 cents worth.

Back when gas had lead in it at predictable levels you could make a "Plug cut" and read the color of the plug and tailpipe and get a reasonable idea of the state of the mixture , timing and cam profile. With the demise of leaded fuel that trick has gone away almost completely. Lead is what colored the plug and tailpipe with that white / gray / light brown color. Look at any late model vehicle running unleaded gas and you will see the tailpipe looks pig fat rich. In reality the absense of lead is the culprit. During the times I run my experimental on straight unleaded auto fuel I cannot read the plugs and pipe to get a snapshot pic of the mixture. When I switch to 100LL reading the plugs is a cinch again. YMMV.

Ben.
 
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Back when gas had lead in it at predictable levels you could make a "Plug cut" and read the color of the plug and tailpipe and get a reasonable idea of the state of the mixture , timing and cam profile. With the demise of leaded fuel that trick has gone away amost completely. Lead is what colored the plug and tailpipe with that white / gray / light brown color. Look at any late model vehicle running unleaded gas and you will see the tailpipe looks pig fat rich. In reality the absense of lead is the culprit. During the times I run my experimental on straight unleaded auto fuel I cannot read the plugs and pipe to get a snapshot pic of the mixture. When I switch to 100LL reading the plugs is a cinch again. YMMV.

Ben, you just gave me one of those "smack your forehead" epiphany moments. Thank you for sharing that.

Our exhaust color changed somewhat dramatically lighter a while back, and as soon as you posted that I realized... that was the summer we "experimented" with our MoGas STC.

It also explains why I always wonder how my current vehicles always have such black tailpipes when I remember clearly as a kid that was a sign of running way too rich in cars.

I hate to admit it, but I really didn't make the full-circle connection on both of those until your post. THANKS!
 
Since no one has chimed in to your question I will throw in my .02 cents worth.

Back when gas had lead in it at predictable levels you could make a "Plug cut" and read the color of the plug and tailpipe and get a reasonable idea of the state of the mixture , timing and cam profile. With the demise of leaded fuel that trick has gone away amost completely. Lead is what colored the plug and tailpipe with that white / gray / light brown color. Look at any late model vehicle running unleaded gas and you will see the tailpipe looks pig fat rich. In reality the absense of lead is the culprit. During the times I run my experimental on straight unleaded auto fuel I cannot read the plugs and pipe to get a snapshot pic of the mixture. When I switch to 100LL reading the plugs is a cinch again. YMMV.

Ben.

Agreed on the head smack moment - hadn't occurred to me either that it's the lead. But now I've just had a double head smack moment. I've been using my ship's gauge in the manner that the manufacturer recommends but I've never verified that it's close to accurate. On my EGT gauge, there's a marking for "peak" and and asterisk on it at 50 cooler than that as the recommended set point. I always set the mixture to needle on the asterisk. I've never actually verified exactly where peak is - probably because of the way the engine is set up. That might explain why when I think I've set it to 50 ROP I'm getting white exhaust stacks.

If that sounds stupid that I've never done that, I'll just say that this engine spends most of it's life with everything thrown full forward flopping around over the airport and so the only gauge I'm concerned with is the oil temp. If I've been hovering around long enough it can bump the redline and it's time to get some air moving again. It's still stupid that I've never tried to find peak on it and trusted the gauge but that excuse is working for some ego defense right now...
 
If I may guys, I'd like to interject with a question that came from a post about 2 pages ago. It's related to leaning in a climb.

It's my understanding that leaning is to maintain fuel/air ratio but also that fuel ratio affects CHT. I read (IIRC Lycoming technical article) that full power climbs should always be full rich. I also heard that there's a fuel enrichener that comes into play only when full power is engaged and that if the mixture is leaned the enrichener can't do its job.

Well there's a conflict of information! Someone unkunfuze me.
 
If I may guys, I'd like to interject with a question that came from a post about 2 pages ago. It's related to leaning in a climb.

It's my understanding that leaning is to maintain fuel/air ratio but also that fuel ratio affects CHT. I read (IIRC Lycoming technical article) that full power climbs should always be full rich. I also heard that there's a fuel enrichener that comes into play only when full power is engaged and that if the mixture is leaned the enrichener can't do its job.

Well there's a conflict of information! Someone unkunfuze me.

There are different fuel controllers, and each one has some different characteristics. Your mixture knob will adjust fuel flow. However, there are several fuel controllers that, at full throttle, give you even more fuel than you normally would get by having the engine at full rich. This is usually put in for cooling purposes.

The basic formula is: fuel + more fuel = a lot of fuel.

SI 1094D gives leaning guidelines, including some recommended CHT values to shoot for. Personally, I shoot for 380F as my max, because I like it.
 
Scenario:

Cruising at 6,500 engine happy and properly leaned. Pilot desires to climb to 9,500 and pushes the throttle to the firewall. Does he further lean as he climbs at Vy or enrichen the mixture?
 
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Cruising at 6,500 engine happy and properly leaned. Pilot desires to climb to 9,500 and pushes the throttle to the firewall. Does he further lean as he climbs at Vy or enrichen the mixture?
For a second or two the mixture will be very rich due to the accelerator pump. I know you're not asking about it, but just saying. Then, the mixture is going to return to normal, but get richer and richer as airplane climbs. That is your answer. However, the effect is very small. I am based at 5300 and fly to 6000+ airports all the time, cruise 10500 west, 9500 east every time. In Cherokee you hardly notice any difference on the knob from the run-up leaning.
-- Pete
 
Scenario:

Cruising at 6,500 engine happy and properly leaned. Pilot desires to climb to 9,500 and pushes the throttle to the firewall. Does he further lean as he climbs at Vy or enrichen the mixture?

Answer: Look at your CHTs, and determine from there. If you don't have a realiable CHT gauge (i.e. engine monitor), I would typically keep it on the rich side to make sure I'm not cooking anything.
 
It's my understanding that leaning is to maintain fuel/air ratio but also that fuel ratio affects CHT. I read (IIRC Lycoming technical article) that full power climbs should always be full rich.

Scenario:

Cruising at 6,500 engine happy and properly leaned. Pilot desires to climb to 9,500 and pushes the throttle to the firewall. Does he further lean as he climbs at Vy or enrichen the mixture?

I would enrichen the mixture, but not to "full rich". At that altitude, full rich is going to mean you're not making as much power as you could be, and you'll need to have as much power as possible for the climb.

Assuming proper instrumentation (a big assumption these days, I know) you can check your EGT's in the climb shortly after you depart (500-1000 AGL), and then adjust the mixture to maintain those EGT's for any climbing you do that day. That should keep your engine cool and making good power, but do monitor CHT's to be sure!

So far, I've found that the Diamond tends to have EGT's in the low 1300's (~1320 ±20 or so) on the initial climbout, so I try to maintain EGT's in that range for the entire climb. Leaned out in cruise, EGT's tend to be in the mid-1500's.

So, in your scenario, I would push the mixture in until my EGT's were in the low 1300's, probably spin the prop up to 2500 RPM, and leave the throttle wide open (which is where I generally run it from the beginning of the takeoff roll until somewhere in the descent). During the climb, monitor EGT's for my mixture setting and CHT's to ensure the engine is remaining reasonably cool. Upon reaching the higher altitude, leave climb power in as I accelerate back to cruise speed, then pull the prop back down to my desired cruise setting and finally lean the mixture again.
 
If I may guys, I'd like to interject with a question that came from a post about 2 pages ago. It's related to leaning in a climb.

It's my understanding that leaning is to maintain fuel/air ratio but also that fuel ratio affects CHT. I read (IIRC Lycoming technical article) that full power climbs should always be full rich. I also heard that there's a fuel enrichener that comes into play only when full power is engaged and that if the mixture is leaned the enrichener can't do its job.

Well there's a conflict of information! Someone unkunfuze me.

When you realize that the amount of fuel burned in a cylinder is proportional to the O2 induced to the cylinder, which is a constant at a fixed throttle setting, you will understand that you can put too much fuel in the mix, and some goes unburned. that is rich of peak.

So,,,,, when you start to lean, you are starting way rich, and are removing the unburned fuel first, this places you in an area that has no cooling effect from the unburned fuel, and all temps will rise EGT and CHT will go up.
as you continue to lean, you will continue to remove fuel to a point that the excess O2 will go unburned. that is Lean of peak.

Less fuel burned, will produce less power, is that what you want in the climb?

you could lean to the point of equal fuel to O2 ratio, your CHT will go thru the roof, as in Deakens red box theory, and you won't be happy with that either.
 
I would enrichen the mixture, but not to "full rich". At that altitude, full rich is going to mean you're not making as much power as you could be, and you'll need to have as much power as possible for the climb.

Not always, every take off doesn't need to be a max performance take off. it has been proven many times that those operators that limit power setting increase the life of their engines. The Continental TSIO-360 operators know this well.


Power enrichment valves have a purpose, if you are running power settings above the 65% you need that valve open.
 
Not always, every take off doesn't need to be a max performance take off. it has been proven many times that those operators that limit power setting increase the life of their engines. The Continental TSIO-360 operators know this well.

Power enrichment valves have a purpose, if you are running power settings above the 65% you need that valve open.

I'm assuming that's the one that opens when the throttle is wide open?

Also, WRT takeoffs, I don't know of any piston drivers who don't use full power on takeoff. Anyone here use less than full power on their takeoff roll? :dunno:

Sure, *cruise* power settings should be limited, but to climb, you need power. Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?
 
Also, WRT takeoffs, I don't know of any piston drivers who don't use full power on takeoff. Anyone here use less than full power on their takeoff roll? :dunno:
LOTS of warbird and/or old radial operators use less than full power or reduced thrust takeoffs.
 
Scenario:

Cruising at 6,500 engine happy and properly leaned. Pilot desires to climb to 9,500 and pushes the throttle to the firewall. Does he further lean as he climbs at Vy or enrichen the mixture?

If properly leaned the engine will quit if the mixture isn't enriched to the new MAP.

try it on the ground, run the engine above the idle circuit power setting and lean to vibrations and richen to smooth, then advance the throttle.

It will quit.
 
If properly leaned the engine will quit if the mixture isn't enriched to the new MAP.

try it on the ground, run the engine above the idle circuit power setting and lean to vibrations and richen to smooth, then advance the throttle.

It will quit.

That depends completely on the control system, Tom. It is not at all a universal truth.
 
LOTS of warbird and/or old radial operators use less than full power or reduced thrust takeoffs.

And I know some turbine operators who do the same - they simply don't always need all the power.

However for those of us in the <500 hp range with opposed piston engines, I can't think of any good reason to use a reduced power for takeoff. Climb, many engines have a different maximum continuous power rating than takeoff power rating.
 
LOTS of warbird and/or old radial operators use less than full power or reduced thrust takeoffs.

And does anyone here fly those? :dunno:

Either way, they're somewhat of a special case, especially those that were originally supercharged as they were meant to run on higher-octane fuel than is available today.

So... Does anyone flying a normal flat LyConti style engine use less than full power for takeoff?
 
I'm assuming that's the one that opens when the throttle is wide open?

The manufacturer sets the point of opening for the valve.

Also, WRT takeoffs, I don't know of any piston drivers who don't use full power on takeoff.

Do you know any TSIO-360 operators?



Anyone here use less than full power on their takeoff roll? :dunno:

yes, I do, even the C-150 will get off a 5000' runway with out using full power. many of my Supercub operators will use a reduced power setting for take off, and most are over TBO on their engines with no major maintenance.
The more your engine is at max power the shorter number of hours before it will fail.



Sure, *cruise* power settings should be limited, but to climb, you need power. Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

Yes power makes you go up, I never said it shouldn't be used when needed, But do you need it on every take off? Lots of folks in the real world don't think so.
 
And does anyone here fly those? :dunno:

Yes... :)

Either way, they're somewhat of a special case, especially those that were originally supercharged as they were meant to run on higher-octane fuel than is available today.

not really the point I was making, but true, they also do not like the short TBOs on the high horse radials and will do any thing they can to not have a failure

So... Does anyone flying a normal flat LyConti style engine use less than full power for takeoff?

I'd advise any one planing to run beyond TBO do exactly that.
 
The manufacturer sets the point of opening for the valve.

Okay, a re-word - That's the valve that's open at high throttle settings, right? (which I guess is almost always open for me, since I'm almost always at WOT)

Do you know any TSIO-360 operators?

Dr. Bruce on the Seneca and Jason on the M20K. I've never flown with Jason, but I don't recall Bruce using less than full power either, though we were departing from fairly short grass fields both times.

Bruce, do you use less than full power for takeoffs at longer fields?

yes, I do, even the C-150 will get off a 5000' runway with out using full power.

I could almost certainly get in the air from the home drome at half power in either airplane, our shortest runway is 5800' - But I still use full power because I want to gain that first 1000' of altitude as quickly as possible. I don't like to be hanging around low to the ground when I get away from the airport for both safety and courtesy (to the neighbors) purposes. I do pull the prop back to 2500 fairly quickly in either case, so I guess technically I'm not at 100% for very long.

I'd advise any one planing to run beyond TBO do exactly that.

Bah. I use full power on takeoff every time, and presumably the rest of the club does too (I've never flown with anyone who didn't), and the 182 made it 1000 hours over TBO.

Wouldn't keeping CHT's under 380-400ºF, cruising at 65% or less, and keeping your power changes smooth have a much larger effect on engine longevity than reducing power for the one minute or less on takeoff?
 
It would take boatloads of power before I wouldn't use every bit on takeoff. I want all the altitude I can get as fast as I can get it, which in my little climb-challenged bird ain't that fast. Altitude is safety.
 
Scenario:

Cruising at 6,500 engine happy and properly leaned. Pilot desires to climb to 9,500 and pushes the throttle to the firewall. Does he further lean as he climbs at Vy or enrichen the mixture?

Define "properly leaned". Stop right there.

Are you in cruise at "Best Power", "Rich of Peak EGT", or running the new-world "Lean of Peak"? And more importantly, what percentage of power are you producing.

Continental says you can put the mixture control to ANY setting (on my engine, the O-470 at least) at 65% power and below and you simply can't harm the engine. With the overlying limits that are environmental and specific to that aircraft's cooling system (baffles) that the CHT should never go above 460F - per Continental. I and others say 400F and I would attempt to keep that additional personal limit.

So the original question is flawed due to "properly leaned" not being specific enough, and not knowing the specific engine, airframe, and features.

Personally I'm convinced there's a "hierarchy". Engine mfgr sets limits, airframe mfgr adds limits and procedures for things like cowl design, baffles, and cowl flaps, and then the type clubs, engine experts, and others with "real world" experience add some further thoughts that can be heeded or not.

At the end of the day, plenty of engines have gone to TBO and beyond with the aircraft mfgrs book numbers. What's happening today is we're all trying hard to extend engines well beyond the conservative TBO numbers and squeeze every bit of run time out of them that we can, 'cause they're godawful expensive for 1930s tractor-engine technology! ;)

When you're going for "max performance" out of anything, the variables get naturally more complex, and the skill level required goes up. Pilots who are installing engine monitors and playing along get a LOT of data. But the tried and true of the previous decades of cutting open the oil filter and looking for metals, doing oil analysis, and having known-performance numbers for your aircraft also have to play in this new ever-more-complex mix of variables.

I *only* study heavily the words written about the O-470 because I own one. For other aircraft I fly the POH, unless the person who owns it says otherwise. They have the "vested interest" required to care enough to wade through the data about their engine and give an opinion. I can't possibly follow the ideosyncacies of all engines and airframes. So I have a solid opinion on how to fly a C-182P with an O-470-S. On others I do the POH and owner's wishes and try to err on the side of 20% cooler is always better, and I hunt for articles in my free time to feed ideas to the owner/operator to build up their knowledge so they provide their reasoned opinion to the pilots that operate their aircraft.

'Cause ultimately they have to pay the bills. The buck literally stops there.
 
Our exhaust color changed somewhat dramatically lighter a while back, and as soon as you posted that I realized... that was the summer we "experimented" with our MoGas STC.
Apropos that, I don't own an airplane (yet), but I noticed that brown gunk started to collect in throttle bodies of my cars when California switched from MTBE to Ethanol additive. Maybe something to check perodically when running mogas? It took 6 to 9 month on a car (with fuel injection) to get bad enough for throttle to start sticking. I know, an auto engine is very different, but still.
 
Dr. Bruce on the Seneca and Jason on the M20K. I've never flown with Jason, but I don't recall Bruce using less than full power either, though we were departing from fairly short grass fields both times.

Bruce, do you use less than full power for takeoffs at longer fields?
I don't think Bruce has the Merlyn wastegate STC on his Seneca so he would normally use less than WOT when taking off since that's the only way to keep the manifold pressure at or below redline down low. He's likely to be using "full" power for those takeoffs (MP and RPM at redline) but not all the power available.
 
LOTS of warbird and/or old radial operators use less than full power or reduced thrust takeoffs.
Many warbirds were designed to run on higher octane fuel than 100LL and some of them even have a max MP called out in the flight manual for operation on lower octane. There's also the issue that pretty much nobody flies a "warbird" at anywhere near the maximum weight allowed when it was flown in the military. Taking off at 20-50% below MGW will make up for a lot of HP.
 
Many warbirds were designed to run on higher octane fuel than 100LL and some of them even have a max MP called out in the flight manual for operation on lower octane. There's also the issue that pretty much nobody flies a "warbird" at anywhere near the maximum weight allowed when it was flown in the military. Taking off at 20-50% below MGW will make up for a lot of HP.

It will in a C-150 too, or any other aircraft that I can think of.
 
It will in a C-150 too, or any other aircraft that I can think of.
I don't know of any C-150s that can be flown 25-50% below MGW. IIRC the MGW is around 1600 lbs and a typical empty weight is 1100-1200 lbs. I guess if the pilot only weighed 70 lbs and you were only carrying enough fuel to get around the pattern once you might be taking off 25% below MGW but not in real life.
 
Okay, a re-word - That's the valve that's open at high throttle settings, right? (which I guess is almost always open for me, since I'm almost always at WOT)

The MA3-SPA used on many small engines up to 350 cubic inches doesn't have an enrichment valve, just those engines that require extra fuel at WOT.

Dr. Bruce on the Seneca and Jason on the M20K. I've never flown with Jason, but I don't recall Bruce using less than full power either, though we were departing from fairly short grass fields both times.

Bruce, do you use less than full power for takeoffs at longer fields?

think Merlin waste gates that limit MAP at lower altitudes, to less than 41"HQ that is allowed by TCDS.

I could almost certainly get in the air from the home drome at half power in either airplane, our shortest runway is 5800' - But I still use full power because I want to gain that first 1000' of altitude as quickly as possible. I don't like to be hanging around low to the ground when I get away from the airport for both safety and courtesy (to the neighbors) purposes. I do pull the prop back to 2500 fairly quickly in either case, so I guess technically I'm not at 100% for very long.



Bah. I use full power on takeoff every time, and presumably the rest of the club does too (I've never flown with anyone who didn't), and the 182 made it 1000 hours over TBO.

Wouldn't keeping CHT's under 380-400ºF, cruising at 65% or less, and keeping your power changes smooth have a much larger effect on engine longevity than reducing power for the one minute or less on takeoff?

All those things help, but seldom do we see operators use all the tools in their box.
 
I don't think Bruce has the Merlyn wastegate STC on his Seneca so he would normally use less than WOT when taking off since that's the only way to keep the manifold pressure at or below redline down low. He's likely to be using "full" power for those takeoffs (MP and RPM at redline) but not all the power available.

Bruce does have the Merlyn Upper Deck Pressure Controllers, IIRC, but they still don't allow you to go WOT.

Either way, full power on takeoff in the Seneca is 40" MP, not WOT. WOT at less than critical altitude (AKA at any takeoff) is going to be way more than full power, and quite possibly enough to cause parts to start flying from the nacelles.

But, that's why I specified "full power" rather than WOT in my question. ;)
 
I don't know of any C-150s that can be flown 25-50% below MGW. IIRC the MGW is around 1600 lbs and a typical empty weight is 1100-1200 lbs. I guess if the pilot only weighed 70 lbs and you were only carrying enough fuel to get around the pattern once you might be taking off 25% below MGW but not in real life.

were did the 25-50% come from ? 100# means a lot in that little aircraft.

when the empty weight is 1150# (most are lower than that) and the actual gross weight is 1650# you have 500# to work with. 1 pilot at 150, 12 gallons of fuel is all you need to fly 1 hour.

so do the math, 6.02pounds per gal X12 gallons = 72.24#
plus 150# pilot= 222.24#

Which is actually below your 50%
 
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So... Does anyone flying a normal flat LyConti style engine use less than full power for takeoff?

Yes -- to demonstrate high DA conditions, especially in over-powered birds.

As a demonstration, sure - But you're not doing it as a matter of regular procedure to try to extend the life of the engine, right?

Pipeline and fish spotters "loitering" engines at low MP can have cylinder problems because the pressure created during the burn cycle isn't high enough to push the rings outward and keep them sealed up nice and tight to the oil film layer on the cylinder wall in some engines.

Lots of blow-by, the cylinders don't like it, and the oil "scraper" ring ends up not doing its job, etc. Definitely a "known issue" with the O-470.

Highest MP and lowest RPM that makes a BOOK power number that you want, is the best treatment for big "sloppy" engines like our 471 cubic inch beast. Worries about "oversquare" operation are unfounded in the O-470, unless you're "off the chart" in the POH, and most over-square worries in many engines are often left over from all the way back to bolted-on cylinder engines of yesteryear instead of our cylinders that are screwed on. You'd blow the bolts off with the higher pressures.

If it's in the POH table for on O-470, it's an approved power setting unless otherwise placarded. (Some installations of O-470 engines on some aircraft have a range where the prop governor or other components have problems and there's a "skip" in the green arc on the RPM gauge, where the engine shouldn't be operated continuously.)

Picking the percentage of power you want and then using the line in the table which has the highest MP and lowest RPM, has the ring seating benefit, as well as over the long-haul treats your bottom-end the best, in the O-470. Less revolutions of the crankshaft for the same power is always a good thing, wear-wise. Plus if you're paying by tach time as all owners are for maintenance, that's an indirect benefit to your wallet, too.

So, if you have to "loiter" at low MP with an O-470, you're going to be replacing jugs sooner than you expected to. The bottom-end will probably be fine, as long as you're not taxiing it around at low RPM without enough oil being "splashed" down from the galleys above onto the bottom-end.

Most of the lower half of the engine is oiled via whatever falls from above. 900 RPM with 55 lbs of oil pressure is a nice bath. Lower on either, stuff may or may not being adequately lubricated very well.

Really low idle is the worst. Oil pump can't regulate well turning that slow, the pressure falls, oil galleys just aren't getting as much oil, and less oil is being flung around to hit all the "stuff" in the low end and cool it as well as lubricate it all. Hot summer days, I see folks pull engines way back to super-low idle while waiting for takeoff clearance or prior to run-up, thinking they're "saving" the engine from heat, and instead, they've just starved it for oil flow.

Anyway, you just have to know your specific gear and how it's built to do what it does. Much of that info is difficult to find, or buried in Service Bulletins and Service Letters that came out decades ago and aren't always readily accessible to people without some sort of "subscription" to them. I've got piles of SB numbers I'd love to read, but can't find from Continental. Especially older superseded ones that had good info, but they don't want people reading and not knowing there's a newer version. The lawyers make them pull them down from public view. Old mechanics often have them in paper format on their bookshelf.

Pro airline pilots sit in hour after hour of "systems" training on their birds, but we little guys often have far fewer options to get the information. The type clubs usually gather this type of info into a single, usable, form... if your aircraft was popular enough to even have a strong type club.
 
were did the 25-50% come from ? 100# means a lot in that little aircraft.

when the empty weight is 1150# (most are lower than that) and the actual gross weight is 1650# you have 500# to work with. 1 pilot at 150, 12 gallons of fuel is all you need to fly 1 hour.

so do the math, 6.02pounds per gal X12 gallons = 72.24#
plus 150# pilot= 222.24#

Which is actually below your 50%

1,150 + 150 + 72 = 1,372

1,372 / 1,650 = 0.832, or 83.2% of MGW
 
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