Sheble Aviation vs. Local FBO for Comm/Multi

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
I am a 700 hr. private pilot w/ instrument rating. I would like to add multi-engine and commercial (both single and multi).

I want to do this in one concentrated week that will be devoted to training and checkrides, not stretched out over a long period. One option I've been seriously considering is attending Sheble Aviation in Ft. Mohave, AZ. They offer a course they say takes six days for $4,395. (I'll allocate 9 days, just in case). The multi-engine plane is a Beech Travelair.

I've heard mixed reviews on Sheble's. Some people say that because of the flat fee, you'll only get minimal multi-engine time in training. I've also heard that they are "disorganized" and "you'll spend a lot of time waiting", but you will get your rating in the end. On the other hand, they seem to specialize in this "accelerated" training, which is what I want.

The other alternative is to try and arrange something like this at a local FBO. Here in the Phoenix area, I've looked at "Classic Aviation" at FFZ with a Seneca II, and Sawyer Aviation (SDL) with a DA42. Classic Aviation is at my home field (I own 1/3 of a Piper Comanche based there) which makes it convenient. If I do this near home, one advantage would be that I could rent their multi-engine plane for trips when I am done. That's attractive. On the flip side, since these schools are not focused on "accelerated" training, there would seem to be less of a guarantee I would finish. I also suspect they would cost more since it would not be a "flat fee" arrangement.

Looking at the "ATP" website, they seem to charge $14k for the same thing!

Any thoughts about the preferred way to go, or any of the vendors mentioned?

Thanks,
Dan
 
I have heard to stay away from Sheble for multi. Something like 4 hours and then the check ride from an examiner who already gave 3 rides that day. If you're willing to go to Chandler I did a commercial short course with chandler air service and was very happy. Did mine in my own 182rg but they have an Aztec and an Arrow for them.
 
Those examiners must be raking in the cash... at $500 per ride.....

I looked at going to CHD. The Chandler Air website seems to have tons of "rules" about when their planes could be rented.... i.e. if it's dark, if there is a cloud visible, etc. they seemed to want to insert themselves in your go/no-go decision. Not a place I'd like to rent from going forward.

Is their Aztec FIKI?

--Dan
 
dans2992 said:
Those examiners must be raking in the cash... at $500 per ride.....

I looked at going to CHD. The Chandler Air website seems to have tons of "rules" about when their planes could be rented.... i.e. if it's dark, if there is a cloud visible, etc. they seemed to want to insert themselves in your go/no-go decision. Not a place I'd like to rent from going forward.

Is their Aztec FIKI?

--Dan
Click to expand...

I haven't rented there since I was a PPL student, so I can't comment there. I do have lots of friends who rent from them with no issues. Their CFIs are good though, which is why I've done all my training there. I think their 'currency' requirements to rent are pretty tough, 21 days for tailwheel IIRC and 30 or 60 for everything else. I don't think their Aztec is FIKI, it doesn't have boots on it I know that.
 
Well ATP is a paper mill, they will get you done and do what they say, but that's about it, you will be processed.

Flight training comes down to three things no matter what.

CFI
Airframe
Price for said CFI and Airframe

I would recommend talking to each place, talking to their CFIs and getting a feel for who has the most real knowledge and passion, who you click with.

The accelerated program aint a issue, I've done em before, the limiting factor has historically been unmotivated or unprepared (book study) by the students when the rubber hits the road.

The biggest thing in this equation is YOUR CFI, the plane doesnt have to be fancy or pretty, just safe so dont blow money there, and anyone can do an accelerated program.
 
TravelAir is a great plane to fly...that being said I dont see any way to be competent flying a multi on 4 hours of time if what ClearedDirect says is true. It took me almost 20 to really feel comfortable with the emergency procedures and single engine instrument approaches. Im not slouch in the cockpit either. It may have cost me more but I fly twins with alot more confidence than when I had 5 hours...losing an engine in a light twin is no joke and you should be comfortable when/if it happens. I think spending more and going with the fbo with the ability to rent later sounds best.

Thats my two pennies anyway.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
I would recommend talking to each place, talking to their CFIs and getting a feel for who has the most real knowledge and passion, who you click with.

The biggest thing in this equation is YOUR CFI, the plane doesnt have to be fancy or pretty, just safe so dont blow money there, and anyone can do an accelerated program.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
Z06_Mir said:
I have heard to stay away from Sheble for multi. Something like 4 hours and then the check ride from an examiner who already gave 3 rides that day. If you're willing to go to Chandler I did a commercial short course with chandler air service and was very happy. Did mine in my own 182rg but they have an Aztec and an Arrow for them.
Click to expand...
Here is my .02 on Sheble. I went there for my Commercial a couple years ago. It accomplished what I needed (my regular CFI was a reservist who got tagged to go to CENTCOM so I just needed a finish up and checkride). I was already multi rated so I did my initial Comm AMEL on one weekend and came back a week later for the ASEL addon.

Sheble does an okay job of prepping you for a checkride, but I wouldn't recommend it as a place to go to actually learn how to fly. As far as the flat fee thing.....how much you fly depends on your ability/how fast you pick it up. They will spend as much time as you need to get you ready. If you are a little weak, they will fly as much as needed to get you ready to pass. If you are fairly strong, you'll fly very little. I had something like 50-75 hrs of twin time when I did it including time in a Travel Air. I flew one flight on a Saturday, one short one on a Sunday and then took my checkride.

My first checkride was with JoJo (who apparently has since had his DPE pulled). JoJo actually did a fair, reasonable ride I thought. A week later I came back to do the SE addon in a 172. For that one, my DPE was Senior. As far as I know, Senior is the only one who still holds his DPE.....which suprises me as I thought his ride (both oral and flight) was a joke.

Personally, while I had a decent experience at Sheble, based on what has been going on the last year or so (two of their 3 DPEs had their examiner certs pulled), I would not recommend going there right now, especially for a Multi-initial.
 
Say again why you are pursuing these ratings if you already have a PA-24?

dans2992 said:
I am a 700 hr. private pilot w/ instrument rating. I would like to add multi-engine and commercial (both single and multi).

I want to do this in one concentrated week that will be devoted to training and checkrides, not stretched out over a long period. One option I've been seriously considering is attending Sheble Aviation in Ft. Mohave, AZ. They offer a course they say takes six days for $4,395. (I'll allocate 9 days, just in case). The multi-engine plane is a Beech Travelair.

I've heard mixed reviews on Sheble's. Some people say that because of the flat fee, you'll only get minimal multi-engine time in training. I've also heard that they are "disorganized" and "you'll spend a lot of time waiting", but you will get your rating in the end. On the other hand, they seem to specialize in this "accelerated" training, which is what I want.

The other alternative is to try and arrange something like this at a local FBO. Here in the Phoenix area, I've looked at "Classic Aviation" at FFZ with a Seneca II, and Sawyer Aviation (SDL) with a DA42. Classic Aviation is at my home field (I own 1/3 of a Piper Comanche based there) which makes it convenient. If I do this near home, one advantage would be that I could rent their multi-engine plane for trips when I am done. That's attractive. On the flip side, since these schools are not focused on "accelerated" training, there would seem to be less of a guarantee I would finish. I also suspect they would cost more since it would not be a "flat fee" arrangement.

Looking at the "ATP" website, they seem to charge $14k for the same thing!

Any thoughts about the preferred way to go, or any of the vendors mentioned?

Thanks,
Dan
Click to expand...
 
Well, at some point if I ever "semi-retire" or am between jobs, I'd like to be able warm the right-seat of a King Air or something.

That and just for the challenge/learning experience.

Dan
 
Well, I guess this is my week for deja vu.

My situation was similar except that it was a 210. I found that the little twins are essentially the same performance-wise and that the multi rating consisted primarily of 4+ hours of training that included a VMC demo, ROC demo and a shut-down restart. So that rating doesn't have much to accelerate, can be done almost anywhere in a weekend and I can't come up with any good reason to travel anywhere to do it, seeing as how there's no hurry. The commerical rating might take a bit longer, but it too is one of the shorter courses you'll undertake and shouldn't take much more time whether or not accelerated. If there's any chance you can fly the local twins to gain some experience, that would tip the scales for me.

King Airs are single-pilot airplanes, so they don't need a right-seater for anything other than to tell jokes, serve coffee and keep the pilot awake.

dans2992 said:
Well, at some point if I ever "semi-retire" or am between jobs, I'd like to be able warm the right-seat of a King Air or something.

That and just for the challenge/learning experience.

Dan
Click to expand...
 
I do know a couple of guys that have side jobs as right seaters in King Airs.

Their owners feel more "comfortable" with two pilots up front.

Anyhow, that was just an example - you get the idea.

Deciding between the DA42 and Seneca II, I'm leaning towards the Seneca since its probably more challenging and I would learn more.

Dan
 
dans2992 said:
Well, at some point if I ever "semi-retire" or am between jobs, I'd like to be able warm the right-seat of a King Air or something.

That and just for the challenge/learning experience.

Dan
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with that... I am getting my commercial for the same reasons. If all goes well and I get my two lessons in this weekend I should be taking the written next week and scheduling the check ride for the following week.

If you want to take some pics out the window of your airplane, fly anywhere for business while carrying anything more than the clothes on your back.... you're gonna need a commercial license!
 
BTW, looking to do accelerated because the "boss" seems to whine a lot when I'm not around after work and on weekends to help watch our 3 year old...

The "boss" and 3 year old will be away on vacation this summer .....


:)
 
King air (or another aircraft) can be two crew depending on how your 135 company operates, what type of approaches etc.
 
It happens occasionally, but bet on the single-pilot operation if you're giving odds. Other than the 350's and the 135's I can't think of a single KA around here that requires a two-pilot crew, and having taught sim and flown the airplanes for 20+ years in this area I know a high percentage of them.

As to the 135's those aren't "ride-along" jobs and require trained and experienced crew-members. If you want to spend the time and money required to obtain those credentials it can certainly be done, but don't expect to earn any money or even recover your investment by doing it.

I took dozens of pilots along in the King Air for 20+ years while flying part 91 airplanes. The owners were always glad to have an extra hand up front and even gladder that they didn't have to pay them. Some were multi-rated, some weren't, and it didn't really matter. I took them along because they were good guys whose company I enjoyed and who thought it was fun. Some wanted the training, some just liked to watch the show.



dans2992 said:
I do know a couple of guys that have side jobs as right seaters in King Airs.

Their owners feel more "comfortable" with two pilots up front.

Anyhow, that was just an example - you get the idea.

Deciding between the DA42 and Seneca II, I'm leaning towards the Seneca since its probably more challenging and I would learn more.

Dan
Click to expand...
 
ummm. must be my age showing, or indigestion, but your assumptions give me heartburn.
You want to go from ASEL-I Private to ASMEL-I Commercial - in one week.

That requires the commercial XC be satisified
A new single engine check ride for the commercial rating
The multi check ride to commercial standards
The multi instrument check ride - including an engine out approach under the hood
And this does not factor in weather
Or examiner availability

Nothing is impossible - but this is gonna get Murphy's attention.
Let us know when you do it and good luck
 
Sheble's was advertising it could all be done in 6 days.....

Maybe that needs a reality check...?
 
BTW, I already have the commercial XC done.... I agree, it's still a lot however, but clearly it's possible (or someone is stretching the truth in their advertising)

That's another advantage of doing it close to home I suppose. If it takes longer, I'll finish up as I have time.

In regards to the King Air thing, that was just an example. I do know people getting paid to fly/sit in the right seat on part 91 King Air flights in their "spare" time.

So, what kind of qualifications does it take to fly 135 right seat in a King Air? What would be the next step down on the ladder from there?

Dan
 
I think you'll learn and retain more at home, along with the possibility of some "parlay value" insofar as future opportunities/contacts are concerned.

Part 135 training requirements are specified in the documents (Op Specs, Training Manual, Maintenance Manual--AAIP--that control most of the operator's activities. SIC training isn't as rigorous as PIC (doh) but is usually more extensive than for part 91. Much of it involves sim training.

Since the KA's smaller than the 350 are certified as single-pilot and don't require a SIC absent an Op Spec, the entire subject is a bit confusing. For example, if you're a right-seater in a part 91 KA, can you log SIC time in a plane that doesn't require one? As to the step down the ladder, some would say only partly in jest that any other job in a 135 would meet that requirement. They typically aren't pretty places to work.

If you want to fly a twin without buying it, you can do worse than finishing the rating and hanging around at the airport and getting to know the players. There's not much demand but you might get lucky.



dans2992 said:
BTW, I already have the commercial XC done.... I agree, it's still a lot however, but clearly it's possible (or someone is stretching the truth in their advertising)

That's another advantage of doing it close to home I suppose. If it takes longer, I'll finish up as I have time.

In regards to the King Air thing, that was just an example. I do know people getting paid to fly/sit in the right seat on part 91 King Air flights in their "spare" time.

So, what kind of qualifications does it take to fly 135 right seat in a King Air? What would be the next step down on the ladder from there?

Dan
Click to expand...
 
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Z06_Mir said:
I have heard to stay away from Sheble for multi. Something like 4 hours and then the check ride from an examiner who already gave 3 rides that day. If you're willing to go to Chandler I did a commercial short course with chandler air service and was very happy. Did mine in my own 182rg but they have an Aztec and an Arrow for them.
Click to expand...

Examiners are limited to 2 check rides per day.
 
dans2992 said:
So, what kind of qualifications does it take to fly 135 right seat in a King Air?

Dan
Click to expand...

Essentially training and a check ride, a Commercial MEL and current 2cd class medical.

135.245 Second in command qualifications.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), no certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as second in command of an aircraft unless that person holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and an instrument rating. For flight under IFR, that person must meet the recent instrument experience requirements of part 61 of this chapter.




135.343 Crewmember initial and recurrent training requirements.

No certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve, as a crewmember in operations under this part unless that crewmember has completed the appropriate initial or recurrent training phase of the training program appropriate to the type of operation in which the crewmember is to serve since the beginning of the 12th calendar month before that service. This section does not apply to a certificate holder that uses only one pilot in the certificate holder's operations.
 
Dr. O said:
ummm. must be my age showing, or indigestion, but your assumptions give me heartburn.
You want to go from ASEL-I Private to ASMEL-I Commercial - in one week.

That requires the commercial XC be satisified
A new single engine check ride for the commercial rating
The multi check ride to commercial standards
The multi instrument check ride - including an engine out approach under the hood
And this does not factor in weather
Or examiner availability
Click to expand...
He is already Instrument rated - only one checkride is required for the ME addon. You do a single simulated OEI approach on the Multi ride not a whole nother instrument checkride.
 
Review - Sheble Instrument Training Course (or 10 Days in a Crazy House)

My wife and I signed up for Sheble’s 10-11 day instrument training course in early March for the purpose of acquiring our ratings in mid-April 2014. Our work schedules kept us on a hard departure date so our initial communications with Sheble addressed the need to checkride by a certain day. We were assured on schedule completion would not be a problem.
What follows is a day by day breakdown of our appallingly negative experience at Sheble Aviation. If you’re into quick and dirty here it is:
• An instructor that falls asleep on cross-country flights as readily as on a traffic filled approach at the North Las Vegas Airport
• Another instructor that took my wife on a 4.9 hour night cross-country in a C-172 with a published fuel endurance of 4.75 hours
• A ‘school’ with 6 instrument students, 2 CFII, 1.5 airplanes (two planes with one lacking the requisite equipment for instrument training) and a complete absence of organization
• An owner whose rare presence was highlighted by drinking Coors Light while having his mechanic install an engine in his race car while one of the 1.5 airplanes was down.
If you’re interested in the whole experience please read on.
We arrived in Needles the night before the course began. The accommodations at America’s Best Value Inn were suitable and for the Sheble rate of $36/night, very tolerable.
The first day consisted of signing the requisite paperwork, paying for the course and ground school. Ground school was fairly well-organized and provided a great deal of information backed up by the training packet provided on the Sheble website. What we were not provided was a syllabus or overall plan for the course. I’ll come back to this fact repeatedly as the theme of our experience was absence of organization.
I should mention at this point if you’re expecting a typical classroom, don’t. The airport has been taken over by Sheble Aviation and most of the buildings (trailers) on site belong to the school. The main building is a pre-fab home with a front desk, a simulator (more on that later) room, kitchen and a couple empty bedrooms. The ground school was held in an aged trailer adjacent to the main building and required the students gather up a mish-mash of tables and chairs. Also littered about the airport are numerous cannibalized airplanes some of which, I was told, are in the boneyard from being landed gear up. Oops.
My day two was spent studying in the office studying followed by 1.5 hours of flight training. The initial instrument flight was challenging and I was spent after bouncing around in the desert heat chasing a needle and trying to read an approach plate.
Day three and four were spent on the simulator and studying the provided materials. I also grabbed an Oral Exam Prep guide off the shelf and began studying it as well. As there were two CFII for 5-6 students, I ended up teaching myself how to use the sim and flew on my own the first couple approaches. Day four I received more formal/supervised training. It should also be said that the “state of the art ATC-710 simulator” may have been state of the art in 1999 but certainly isn’t so in this millennia. It was awkwardly slow to get set up and froze up a few times. One instructor explained the software hadn’t been upgraded in quite a while.
At this point we were four days in and I had 1.5 flight hours and 4 sim hours (my wife was doing no better). We were both concerned about achieving the 40 hours stated the course would provide. Repeatedly throughout the course we had to ask what was planned for the following day. Several times through response came as “what do you want to do?” Not exactly a confidence inspiring reply. Increasing our concern was a disturbing scheduling event. A private student’s checkride had been planned for a nearby local airport and he’d been prepping for that location. A week before the checkride the examiner informed the scheduler the ride would be out of North Las Vegas instead of the planned airport. Rather than inform the student when she was told, the scheduler waited until the night before his checkride. Thankfully he passed but it was totally unnecessary for him to be unprepared.
The morning of the 5th day we had a serious conversation with our instructor about making hours and when and where our checkride would be scheduled. He insisted we’d make hours and that he would be transparent about our checkride scheduling situation. We came to find that our checkrides had been scheduled for two days after our planned departure.
The evening of the 5th day, to ensure she was caught up on hours, the other CFII offered to take my wife for an evening flight. He did the flight planning while we grabbed dinner. They took off at 1900 and returned from the planned 3.15 hour flight at midnight. That’s five hours (4.9 on the Hobbs). They did not get fuel along the way. The Sheble provided C-172 data has a flight endurance of 4.75 hours. The instructor exceeded the legal flight time of the plane by 0.65 hours, the actual amount of usable fuel by 0.15 hours and far more importantly jeopardized my wife’s life. The kicker was that he had no idea how long they were gone. After review of the flight plan my wife determined the instructor planned the flight at 110kts. Never once during my time there did I see either 172 go above 105mph in level flight.
Then the weird things started to happen. As you may know Sheble Aviation is a family business. There was certainly no division between family and business. The ‘accountant’ (owner’s father-in-law) quit and hauled off his trailer only to show back up a couple days later. The scheduler (owner’s wife) also quit and showed up a couple days later. The scheduler then texted our instructor asking him if he thought my wife and I were swingers. As if we weren’t flattered enough the other CFII texted our instructor asking if we had an open relationship. I’ll be clear in stating that in no way were these advances invited.
By the 6th day we thought we were in an insane asylum but decided to soldier on. Admittedly, we should have ran screaming after the night flight incident but our motivation to complete the rating over powered our common sense. The next day or two passed uneventfully with long flights and conclusion of sim time. During this time our checkrides went from Bullhead City, to McCarren in the wee hours of the morning and finally to North Las Vegas. Unfortunately they could not get us completed on the same day which required I make changes to our departing flights. Something we communicated in the beginning we were nearly inflexible on.
Day 9, with the checkride finally fixed we opted to move from Needles to Vegas saving commute time and this point we’re both feeling woefully unprepared for the pending checkride. That day my wife flew approaches with the instructor at the busy North Las Vegas airport. He could not stay awake. Physically could not stay awake. I needn’t explain that in simulated instrument conditions the instructor is a safety pilot tasked with providing visual traffic input to the under-hood student. I needn’t describe the unnecessary risk this put my wife in. I needn’t expound on the added stress this put on our already bizarre experience. That evening our instructor informed us that he would be returning in the morning with a third instrument student and flying all three of us on my checkride day. At this point I am still 2.5 hours short of being legally able to fly a checkride and 5.2 hours short of the 40 hours Sheble Aviation states they will provide on the course. My cross country is somewhat planned but I’ve not gone over it with the instructor and now I’ve in essence been told there won’t be time to thoroughly review the plan with the instructor.
Finally better judgment got the best of us and we decided there was no way we were prepared for the checkride and were not willing to put another thousand dollars on the line. We informed the instructor of our decision when he arrived in the morning and departed the airport wondering what on earth happened during the preceding 10 days.
As we reflected on the experience it became very clear that Sheble Aviation, at least in its current incarnation, should not be in the business of training pilots, it should not be in the aviation business, it should not even be allowed to look at an airplane.
We have since communicated our experience with the scheduler and asked for a reasonable portion of our tuition to be refunded. She expressed concern about the illegally long flight and the sleepy instructor (a fact that was known by the Sheble scheduler) and the 10.2 hours my wife and I were missing from the stated 40. I was promised a return call that never materialized. In calling back several times I actually reached the elusive ‘Jo-Jo’ Sheble who told me, and I quote, “…I’m not up to speed on this, and nor do I need to be up to speed.” That very clearly says he doesn’t care about his poorly/dangerously/illegally/unethically run business. Up to now, I have not received a follow up call from the outfit.
If you’re considering Sheble Aviation for any kind of flight training consider very seriously your other options.
 
I am sooo glad I didn't train there. I had an appointment scheduled to do the commercial multi (initial commercial), which they said was a 4-day event.

I thought the better of it, cancelled and went with a local instructor.
 
Interesting post, but not surprised.

Shebles had moved a large portion of his operation to VGT in March. Joe no longer holds a DPE certificate and moved to VGT to be closer to the DPEs based there and not employed by Shebles. I was surprised to hear the training started at Needles.

Currently there is not a Seaplane DPE in the LAS FSDO area to provide check rides for Shebles seaplane students.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Didn't we have one of our posters here always endorsing and promoting this operation?
Click to expand...

If you remember the DPE fiasco a couple of years ago in the LAS FSDO, about 500 check rides needed to be reacomplishlished. That DPE was working with Shebles. That DPE lost his certification and in the fallout last year, Joe Shebles lost his DPE certification.
 
BillTIZ said:
If you remember the DPE fiasco a couple of years ago in the LAS FSDO, about 500 check rides needed to be reacomplishlished. That DPE was working with Shebles. That DPE lost his certification and in the fallout last year, Joe Shebles lost his DPE certification.
Click to expand...

Even Joe Sr. Is no longer a DPE? I knew jojo lost his, but I wasn't aware Sr lost it too...
 
BillTIZ said:
If you remember the DPE fiasco a couple of years ago in the LAS FSDO, about 500 check rides needed to be reacomplishlished. That DPE was working with Shebles. That DPE lost his certification and in the fallout last year, Joe Shebles lost his DPE certification.
Click to expand...

I know about it, that's why I couldn't understand the glowing recommendations for this outfit.
 
moralesjosh said:
They took off at 1900 and returned from the planned 3.15 hour flight at midnight. That’s five hours (4.9 on the Hobbs). They did not get fuel along the way. The Sheble provided C-172 data has a flight endurance of 4.75 hours. The instructor exceeded the legal flight time of the plane by 0.65 hours, the actual amount of usable fuel by 0.15 hours and far more importantly jeopardized my wife’s life.
Click to expand...

It doesn't excuse what Sheble did, but you guys both need a strong lesson in ADM. Presumably you're both private pilots with some level of experience. Your wife was grossly negligent here. She was PIC. She can likely tell time. Why did she sit there like a knot on a log just waiting for the fan to stop turning? She needs to speak up! I don't care if the guy in the right seat is a million hour space shuttle test pilot. If it's dumb, don't do it, you'll arrive at the accident scene right along with him.
 
The thought of seaplane training in a Beech 18 always sounded cool, but the stories I've heard out of that place have all been troublesome. Assuming this story is at face value with no other sides to it, it just adds to the pile. Sad.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I think he meant JoJo. Last I heard Senior was the only one who still had his.
Click to expand...

But both Senior and JoJo were the Seaplane DPE's in that area, so if there are none left, then neither are still at it. I'll have to take a look at the DPE list in a bit.
 
GCA319 said:
But both Senior and JoJo were the Seaplane DPE's in that area, so if there are none left, then neither are still at it. I'll have to take a look at the DPE list in a bit.
Click to expand...

Yup. Senior must have gotten his pulled too. I just checked- he is no longer on the Vegas list. When this thread was started, Senior still had his.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yup. Senior must have gotten his pulled too. I just checked- he is no longer on the Vegas list. When this thread was started, Senior still had his.
Click to expand...

I'm curious to know what is actually going on out there. A few phone calls to some guys I know who worked there may be in order.
 
Heard a rumor Shebles shut down and their website is offline. Anyone know anything?
 
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