Shady Training? Legal?

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Heath.Davis87@gmail.com

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PAVE-DAVE87
I am currently at a part 141 school and working on my instrument rating. I have a program set up where I have an allotted amount of funding and hours to complete the course. I have recently found out that the school is using their aircraft until they are due for their 100 hr inspection and then fairing them to the airport where the maintenance inspection is to be done using the 10 hr grace period. This is fine, but they are using students and charging them hours and instruction fees to make it a "revenue" flight during the 10 hr grace period.

Is this legal?
 
There's nothing that says they can't use the grace period for revenue flights as long as it is heading to the maintenance facility. Note that they aren't "saving" anything. The rules require them to count the time over 100hours towards the next 100 hours.
 
If they are providing instruction, what makes it shady? For that matter what makes the plane any safer at 99 hours than it is at 101 hours? Why not 75 hours or 125 hours? I am sure there are reasons for the 100 hour figure but like many things in life it is an arbitrary number that does not guarentee anything really.
 
Not saying the aircraft aren't safe.....besides the fact they are helicopters, but was just thinking terms of legality if they are able to use the 10 hr grace period for revenue. Are you allowed to carry passengers for part 119,121,135 ops using the 10 hr grace?
 
Heath.Davis87@gmail.com said:
Not saying the aircraft aren't safe.....besides the fact they are helicopters, but was just thinking terms of legality if they are able to use the 10 hr grace period for revenue. Are you allowed to carry passengers for part 119,121,135 ops using the 10 hr grace?
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AFaIK, nothing in the regs says you can't and baring some stupid written CC opinion to the contrary you can do anything that's no prohibited. In the rental airplane world it's quite common for an airplane to hit the 100 hr mark while on a cross country flight and it seems likely that the very reason the 10 hr grace was included was to allow such an airplane to return to it's maintenance base in that event. I'm pretty certain that the return flight by the renter isn't "free".
 
gismo said:
AFaIK, nothing in the regs says you can't and baring some stupid written CC opinion to the contrary you can do anything that's no prohibited. In the rental airplane world it's quite common for an airplane to hit the 100 hr mark while on a cross country flight and it seems likely that the very reason the 10 hr grace was included was to allow such an airplane to return to it's maintenance base in that event. I'm pretty certain that the return flight by the renter isn't "free".
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Though for the renter it would be if it was.
 
Watch out for 100 hour AD's though, they aren't included in the grace period, they must be complied with or YOU are operating an airworthy airplane . I operate a little flight training/rental operation. Sometimes we dispatch to renters only once 100 has been exceeded but only after all AD,s are complied with. Most 100 AD are very small potatoes anyway and can be done right on the flight line...don't fly unless you are certain your good on these.....hopefully your school utilizes a maintenance "can" for your plane where you can verify these.
 
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flyingron said:
There's nothing that says they can't use the grace period for revenue flights as long as it is heading to the maintenance facility. Note that they aren't "saving" anything. The rules require them to count the time over 100hours towards the next 100 hours.
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I thought this would violate the business purpose rule in flight training...you cannot make business trips while on a training mission.

Second, they do not gain much as the 100 hours begins at the end of the last 100 hrs not at the sign off which might be 10% over the 100 hrs. So they would still need their next 100 hr sign off 100 hrs from the last sign off. You cannot daisy chain 110 hrs to 110 hrs to 110 hrs..... gaining economic advantage.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I thought this would violate the business purpose rule in flight training...you cannot make business trips while on a training mission.
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What are you talking about. There is no such thing, as far as I know.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Maybe I am confusing it with solo flight (when training for ppl)?
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Taking an instructor along for a training flight on the way to a business trip is one thing, and iirc has been said here that this activity is illegal. Taking a student and CFI to a shop where a 100 hour is to be performed and conducting training on the way - is that what the OP means?
 
As noted above, the regulatory issue would arise if they then fly the plane for training a full 100 hours after that late inspection was done. They need to remember that if they eat 5 of those 10 grace hours on this inspection, they only have 5 grace hours on the next one, and after they eat those 5 hours, there are no grace hours left the next time.
 
ChrisK said:
Taking an instructor along for a training flight on the way to a business trip is one thing, and iirc has been said here that this activity is illegal. Taking a student and CFI to a shop where a 100 hour is to be performed and conducting training on the way - is that what the OP means?
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The only restriction that's vaguely related that I can think of is the practice of a CFI flying a "student" somewhere (for business or pleasure) and trying to pass it off as flight instruction when it's really an illegal part 135 charter.

AFaIK it's perfectly legal for your CFI to accompany you on a cross country flight as long as he's truly providing flight instruction. Some examples the FAA wouldn't like are when the "training flight" is one way i.e. the CFI dropped the student off somewhere and left him there, or a "student" with no flight experience receiving "training" in a Navajo that happens to deliver the student to a business meeting out of town and then returns him back home when the meeting is over.
 
ChrisK said:
Taking an instructor along for a training flight on the way to a business trip is one thing, and iirc has been said here that this activity is illegal. Taking a student and CFI to a shop where a 100 hour is to be performed and conducting training on the way - is that what the OP means?
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Poppycock, as long as it is truly an instructional flight, there is absolutely nothing illegal about it. Many people take lessons and even buy a plane and train in it while going to and from other commitments. What you can't do is call it an instructional flight when in fact it is just a ride as that is circumventing 135 rules. If progress is being made toward a license, it's fine.
 
Does the fact that this is a 141 program matter to anyone on the legality side?
 
gismo said:
AFaIK, nothing in the regs says you can't and baring some stupid written CC opinion to the contrary you can do anything that's no prohibited. In the rental airplane world it's quite common for an airplane to hit the 100 hr mark while on a cross country flight and it seems likely that the very reason the 10 hr grace was included was to allow such an airplane to return to it's maintenance base in that event. I'm pretty certain that the return flight by the renter isn't "free".
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Rental aircraft are not required to have 100 hour inspections UNLESS they are used for instruction. If an FBO took an aircraft off the line for instruction at the 100 hour mark and only rented it out to certificated pilots from then on, the next inspection would be due when the annual is due. Since most FBOs use their airplanes for rental and instruction, they all get 100 hour inspections. Now does anyone know if solo flights by student pilots constitute instructional flights? A conservative answer would be yes so that's why I limited it to certificated pilots renting.
 
Witmo said:
Now does anyone know if solo flights by student pilots constitute instructional flights? A conservative answer would be yes so that's why I limited it to certificated pilots renting.
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Solo flights are not instruction for the purpose of 91.409. However, I'm pretty sure there's a Part 141 rule saying a 141 school has to have their planes in 100-hour compliance for all flights.
 
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