SG-102 / KG-102 / Sandel 3500 / KFC225

[peter-h]

Let's say I install the Sandel 3500, and to make use of its "reversionary AI" feature I install the SG-102 gyro.

Do I still need the old KG-102 gyro?

The existing panel has the KI-525 HSI (which would go away), a KI-229 RMI (which, arguably, I could remove because the 3500 can do that function, but I would end up with a big hole), and a KFC225 autopilot.

I also have a Slave/Free switch, for testing the HSI/RMI. Does the Sandel still use this?

The "NAV" sources are a KX155A (NAV1), KX165A (NAV2), KR87 ADF. The RMI VOR needle is switchable to NAV1/NAV2.

The aircraft is US registered. Presumably one could do the design, write out a 337, send it to the NY IFO, and if I hear nothing for a few months, install it.

I realise I could ask Sandel some of these questions but I am only getting one-liners from them, and they could not comment on the KFC225 angle...

So, any tips would be very much appreciated

(I suspect I will need to retain the KG-102 for the KFC225)

 

[taters]

I know they have some digital to analog cable for Garmin stuff now that lets you toss the King AI. Not sure if same thing applies.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

You will need a gyro for the Sandel. A KG102 is a good gyro but the KG102A is much better.
The auto pilot does not need a gyro but you need the AI like a KI256 that has the FD to drive the AP, what AI are you going to get from a Sandel 3500? There is no AHRS to drive it.

 

[peter-h]

I have just heard that the SG-102 cannot be restarted in flight.

This is obviously a major issue. So I will keep the KG-102 (what is a KG-102a? My aircraft was made in 2001) and forget the 3500 reversionary mode.

I am getting the stuff together for this job, myself. This document (which may or may not be current) suggests an EHSI like the 3500 is a Major alteration, so it needs a 337. Here in the UK, the only FAA FSDO is the NY IFO and they stopped processing 337s some years ago, so a DER/8110-3 is the only route, followed by a sending of the 8110-3 + 337 to Oklahoma. It's all got pretty complicated... one US company selling the 3500 quoted me $10000 for the DER stuff, which is way OTT.

Also the 3500 needs an AFMS. And only the very latest version has display dimming; now trying to get the details.

 

[SCCutler]

Lordy me, Peter, I am thinking you're getting more and more into Aspen territory. Is there a reason why that would not work for you?

 

[peter-h]

A friend is on his 3rd EFD-1000 in slightly over 1 year. Aspen are having some major QA issues.

The other factor is that a Sandel 3500 HSI replacement is a more manageable project for me. I have been quoted $10000-$15000 for the DER/8110-3 and "design", with the installation being about 2-3 days at most. I can however do this all myself, and submit it to a US DER myself. It should be under $1000. I quite fancy having a go at this. It will be an interesting project; more so because everybody in the business makes such a big meal of it. And NO I am not paying upwards of $10k for some drawings.

If the 3500 fails I can put in the old HSI (if I do a converter harness for it). The Aspen, however, is a one-way road to a product which is a major major installation, with no way back, and Aspen (or their local dealer) have you over a barrel. I do a lot of long trips to places where avionics dealers basically don't exist and I like the reliability and manageability of what I have. If I had an EHSI failure in say Greece, one email to some friendly dealer in the USA and 3 days later, via DHL, I have a new EHSI in my hand, which is dead easy to install and configure. With an Aspen/G500/G1000/etc, you can forget it. The aircraft is AOG, and it is AOG for a very long time... well until the wx is 100% guaranteed VFR and then you can fly it back home, VFR, FL129 because Zurich won't let you into their Class C whose base is FL130... you get the idea I see pilots with glass here and they spend a suspiciously high % of their time flying to their dealer They had $50k burning a hole in their pocket so they did a bit of retail therapy (as they call it here).

The next step will be replacing the KLN94+KX155A with a GNS430W, but still staying with separate avionics.

 

[Clark1961]

A friend is on his 3rd EFD-1000 in slightly over 1 year. Aspen are having some major QA issues.

Aspen QA issues? News to me and the other Aspen owners I've talked to. I'm at 1 1/4 years and the Aspen is just fine. Another owner had the MFD installed just as soon as it was released because the PFD worked so well for him.

Is the Aspen perfect? No, it is a new product and at least one sensor (temperature probe) was a poor choice but I've not heard of any quality problems.

Long story made short, maybe your friend needs to see a different dealer?

 

[John Collins]

Aspen QA issues? News to me and the other Aspen owners I've talked to. I'm at 1 1/4 years and the Aspen is just fine. Another owner had the MFD installed just as soon as it was released because the PFD worked so well for him.

Is the Aspen perfect? No, it is a new product and at least one sensor (temperature probe) was a poor choice but I've not heard of any quality problems.

Long story made short, maybe your friend needs to see a different dealer?

It is good to hear that you have had a good experience with your Aspen and your advice may be sound. Unfortunately, I have heard of way too many anecdotal stories to the contrary that were not related to installation issues. Of three friends who have installed a PFD, all have had complete failures. One report that I received was on his fifth PFD replacement over a year and a half period. On the positive side, Aspen support seems top notch.

 

[peter-h]

Aspen support is indeed very good (one could say it needs to be) but the bottom line is that they won't deal with pilots direct - not even "capable" ones. If you don't have a relationship with an avionics shop, you've had it. Perhaps not an issue in the USA (where the list of avionics dealers is many pages long) but it is a big problem elsewhere.

Technically, they have a very good-featured product, and now that it can replace the notorious KI-256, even better... the Q is: "do you feel lucky"?

Their sensors have been a problem in perhaps 80% of installations, and that's bad enough.

There is a really good case for separate field-replaceable avionics. It doesn't have to be old junk. It can be very modern "EFIS" stuff. The key is that it can be field-swapped, and the installation manual must be available so the replacement unit can be configured. A few months ago I flew a TBM850 with the G1000 - a great cockpit (and a great aircraft) but if you have a problem in some g0d forsaken dump, all you can do is whistle

BTW, the KI-256 may have been hit by a batch of bad bearings. Mine went recently so I bought an OH unit from Castleberry in the USA which runs great, and when I sent the other one to a UK shop for an OH they reported that the brand new bearings they ordered were defective. I think a "lesser" shop might not have spotted that, and just fitted them. Months later, the good ones have not yet turned up, so g0d knows what bearings all the KI-256 overhaulers are installing right now. This kind of thing might explain why some KI-256s last 200hrs and some last thousands.