Separate engine/airframe logs

[Arob16]

So I'm looking at an aircraft that spent its early years in South America (Venezuela I believe). From 1980-1994, all aircraft maintenance is recorded in one single log book (engine, prop, and airframe). In fact, the more interesting item is, every flight is recorded in this log as well... Anyway, during 1994, they finally split maintenance activity out into 3 separate logs. The kicker is - they used an engine log book as the log for all maintenance during this time, initially leaving me to believe the others are missing... BUT, this log has non-engine repairs in it (i.e. complete landing gear system overhaul, brake system overhaul, new lights, avionics, a new prop, etc etc)

My question - I know there is no requirement to keep separate logs, but is this pretty typical for non-U.S. aircraft? Or South America in general (if anyone knows...).

Thanks

 

[citizen5000]

Cirrus has a seperate log for Airframe, Engine and Prop.

 

[cgrab]

I can't quote the rule but all maintenance must be logged but it doesn't say how. If I bought that plane, I would lock up those log books and start new ones. I'd make a final note in the last one saying what I did. If you think it is all there then it shouldn't be a problem. My 68 Cardinal has a pile of log books in my safe but the maintenance is in three books (A, P, E).

 

[MauleSkinner]

The airplane almost certainly came from the factory with all three books, my guess is that some of them were lost, and they simply logged everything in what they had left (or had available).

This probably also means that the logs are incomplete on the early end. Make sure nothing critical is missing (as with any airplane).

 

[Twin_Flyer]

The airplane almost certainly came from the factory with all three books[/B], my guess is that some of them were lost, and they simply logged everything in what they had left (or had available).

This probably also means that the logs are incomplete on the early end. Make sure nothing critical is missing (as with any airplane).

No... In the good old day there was a log (one book) and everything went in it. In my search I came accross a number of logs that were that way. My 310 is that way also. The spilt in it's books happened when the book #1 filled up. Pretty funny looking at it actually, and as the OP stated there were pages of line for the flights. Glad they dropped that one. My pilot log is hard enough to keep straight.

 

[mondtster]

My question - I know there is no requirement to keep separate logs, but is this pretty typical for non-U.S. aircraft? Or South America in general (if anyone knows...).

It is totally dependent on the laws and customs of the country the airplane was registered and operated in. I maintain a couple of airplanes for a friend of mine that never saw US soil until they were imported (in other words, they were not manufactured here). One plane spent most of its life in Sweden then went to Iceland for a while and that airplane has enough paperwork to fill three 4'x2'x1' tubs. There is more than one place where things were required to be documented and there is a lot more that was required to be documented on that airplane due to where it was registered and operated. The other plane spent most of its life in Canada and has far less paperwork and documentation, but does have split logbooks in the typical Canadian fashion, which does not match the US. Even the import documentation for that airplane leaves a lot to be desired.

In my opinion, what you need to be concerned with are the logs and documents for the US. What is documented prior to arriving here is of little value, particularly if it is written in another language that you and your mechanic cannot understand. The airplane has been subjected to a conformity inspection when it arrived in the US in order to get an airworthiness certificate, meaning that all US ADs have been checked and complied with in addition to verifying that the airplane conforms to its US TC or its properly altered state (assuming there is a US type certificate for the airplane you're looking at).

Additionally, travel logs are quite common in other countries. They used to be common in the US, but nobody seems to do them anymore.

 

[MauleSkinner]

No... In the good old day there was a log (one book) and everything went in it. In my search I came accross a number of logs that were that way. My 310 is that way also. The spilt in it's books happened when the book #1 filled up. Pretty funny looking at it actually, and as the OP stated there were pages of line for the flights. Glad they dropped that one. My pilot log is hard enough to keep straight.

My Maule came from the factory in '63 with separate logs, so maybe it was regional.

 

[X3 Skier]

I was reviewing some logs for an Ercoupe the other day. The Original Airframe book had the maintenance and all the flights as well. Later ones were just maintenance in separate A, P & E. Original dated from 1946 IIRC.

Cheers

 

[Arob16]

Awesome, thanks for all the input everyone. In speaking with the current owners, they were initially concerned about re-sale value due to this when they purchased the plane. (Of course I am equally concerned. I know there are all kinds of opinions on that). The U.S. logs after import to the States are very solid. The prior logs aren't un-solid, it's just all in one book, and definitely not as much detail on repairs made. But AD compliance, annuals, 50/100 hr inspections, are all there.

 

[flyingron]

There is no requirement for separate log books in the US. It's purely convention in that it makes it easier for the records to follow the appliance. I've had three props (That I know of) on my aircraft, and soon it will have its fourth engine. The removed props actually all went to new homes. One of the engines was moved onto my plane and then moved off (it apparently was a "loaner" while the first engine was being overhauled). The other two "removed" engines were basket cases. One gopher35 with too much wrong with it to overhaul and one (as they say in NASCAR) blowed up IO-550.

 

[X3 Skier]

I was listening to the Mike Busch EAA Webinar on buying/selling an airplane last night and I think he said something in response to a question that surprised me. He said the FAA only requires records (logs) to be kept for a year.

He also said you can request the history of an aircraft by Registration Number to the FAA and they will send you a CD with the maintenance history on file.

Cheers

 

[mondtster]

I was listening to the Mike Busch EAA Webinar on buying/selling an airplane last night and I think he said something in response to a question that surprised me. He said the FAA only requires records (logs) to be kept for a year.

The FARs outline the rules on what documentation must be kept and for how long. Many prospective buyers seem to believe that all paperwork must be kept, which simply is not true. A logbook entry detailing an annual inspection from 60 years ago is of little interest to me unless it contains documentation about a major repair that was performed or compliance with some AD or service bulletin. Even then, assuming an ancient AD has been complied with based on a logbook entry from that long ago is foolish, many things may have happened between 1957 and now. Especially on fabric airplanes that may have been recovered two or three times since then.

 

[citizen5000]

If you ever want to sell your plane you better have log books all the way back to when you bought the plane. And have the old log books if you bought a used plane all the way back to manufacturing date. What the FAA requires is non sequeter when it comes to buy/selling an aircraft.

 

[mondtster]

If you ever want to sell your plane you better have log books all the way back to when you bought the plane. And have the old log books if you bought a used plane all the way back to manufacturing date. What the FAA requires is non sequeter when it comes to buy/selling an aircraft.

Plenty of airplanes are bought and sold without full logbooks. In fact, I'd bet more sold don't have all the logbooks than do.

 

[3393RP]

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If you ever want to sell your plane you better have log books all the way back to when you bought the plane. And have the old log books if you bought a used plane all the way back to manufacturing date. What the FAA requires is non sequeter [sic] when it comes to buy/selling an aircraft.

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Your use of the term non sequitur in the context of the above sentence is, well, a non sequitur.

I'm not criticizing you, just having a little fun with words game.

Definition of non sequitur:

1. A statement (such as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said. "We were talking about the new restaurant when she threw in a non sequitur about her dog:.

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Plenty of airplanes are bought and sold without full logbooks. In fact, I'd bet more sold don't have all the logbooks than do.

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What happened to an engine in a missing logbook from the 70s wouldn't be of much interest to me (and please, everyone, don't respond with dozens of "Yeah, but what if..."). A well planned and executed prebuy inspection would reveal any of the issues an engine without said logbook would have.

 

[\__[Ô]__/]

I was listening to the Mike Busch EAA Webinar on buying/selling an airplane last night and I think he said something in response to a question that surprised me. He said the FAA only requires records (logs) to be kept for a year.

He also said you can request the history of an aircraft by Registration Number to the FAA and they will send you a CD with the maintenance history on file.

The data you get from this is not the same as you'd find in the logbooks. It is the information that was sent to the FAA. In my (very limited) experience, it is only 337s (major alteration or repair) forms and documents related to the 337s. You'll see major changes to the plane and a bunch of the modern avionics changes or STCs, but there is a lot of things in the logs that you won't find in the FAA records. I've generally not seen many things that would be nice to know when buying a plane - things like AD compliance, damage history that doesn't require "major" repairs, overhaul information, etc...