Seneca V annual - PA-34-220T

A

anais

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Hi all,

I have been managing a Seneca V for the past year and just took it in for the annual. The plane is hangared, flies minimum every two weeks, and has regular oil changes. I just got the invoice and ALL of the cylinders need to be replaced. My mechanic said this is unfortunately quite common with the TSIO-360RB. Really??
I would love to hear any feedback..
thanks
a
 
How many hours on the cylinders?

My Continental IO-550's have 850 hrs on the ECI reman cylinders and I hope I don't receive similar news at annual. I did replace one in the last 200 hrs but so far the rest are holding up.

Mike
 
anais said:
Hi all,

I have been managing a Seneca V for the past year and just took it in for the annual. The plane is hangared, flies minimum every two weeks, and has regular oil changes. I just got the invoice and ALL of the cylinders need to be replaced. My mechanic said this is unfortunately quite common with the TSIO-360RB. Really??
I would love to hear any feedback..
thanks
a
Click to expand...

From what I've heard, it's difficult to keep CHTs at or below 380F on that plane if you run more than 65% at altitude, especially running ROP and with the original fixed wastegate. Although the "official" redline temp is much higher than this, cylinder life is adversely affected if you run any hotter.

That said, before yanking any jugs I'd want to know exactly why the mechanic thinks they need work. If it's just a moderately low compression reading, I'd go for a second opinion.
 
anais said:
Hi all,

I have been managing a Seneca V for the past year and just took it in for the annual. The plane is hangared, flies minimum every two weeks, and has regular oil changes. I just got the invoice and ALL of the cylinders need to be replaced. My mechanic said this is unfortunately quite common with the TSIO-360RB. Really??
I would love to hear any feedback..
thanks
a
Click to expand...
You're running 75% power per the marketing department's power table. Everybody who operates TSIO360s knows that you run 133 hp per side (not 65% of 220) and you will get to TBO with only a cylinder or two.

Seneca II operator, over 3000 hours and four engines.
 
Thanks for the info guys. 500 hours on the cylinders. They found moderate corrosion inside-
bbchien, can you explain a bit more?
thanks
a
 
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anais said:
Thanks for the info guys. 500 hours on the cylinders. They found moderate corrosion inside-
Click to expand...

If you haven't got a history with this shop, take the plane somewhere else for a second opinion.

I'm curious as to the method they are using to determine "moderate corrosion inside of all cylinders. Ask them to show you.
 
The plane has been with this shop for 8 years, and I think the relationship has always been trustworthy. That is my next step, to get more info specifically how they are determining and, yes, to show me:smile: thanks
 
Sounds like the shop needs to make a rent payment..

Take it some where else. Moderate corrosion, ? take it out and start it. run it 30 minutes and take another look. bet it ain't there.

Give a hungry mechanic a bore scope and you get a big bill.

tell the shop you are not changing the cylinders until they fail Cont. service bulliten for compression.
 
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anais said:
Thanks for the info guys. 500 hours on the cylinders. They found moderate corrosion inside-
bbchien, can you explain a bit more?
thanks
a
Click to expand...
This engine, in Mooney M20Ks, PA28201Ts, and PA 34s of all varieties has a well established reputation of going about .....500 hours! if operated above 65%. At or below 65% LOP or ROP you will not have troubles.

The old wisdom about operating turbocharged engines at 65% comes from this situation.

If you need 175 knots you bought the wrong aircraft. You need a Navajo or a C414/421. To make 1300-1400 hours (1800 tbo of course) w/o troubles, you need to run 160 knots. REALLY. The exhaust valves are a weak point; when your mech puts the 80 psi to the cyls, listen to where the hiss is- it'll be in the exhaust stack, not the breather.

I've run four of these engines through. Believe me, this is how it is. The remaining power is for OEI situations and for climb out through the top of the ice layer. I even climb at 65%.
 
Thanks Bruce - what I don't understand is the corrosion part. I was third in series of pilots that operated this plane, along with the owner. 175 knots was never my objective, and truthfully, I rarely ran it up to 160, the temperature always cool. Thanks again for the input.
 
Didn't realize you're on the coast. Corrosion IS a problem. Was it operated regularly....?

Next, I'd be careful to inspect the factory Conti cyls that you're about to order. Three of mine I sent to G&N to have reworked BEFORE they were installed. The current round of workmanship is simply AWFUL.
 
anais said:
The plane is hangared, flies minimum every two weeks, and has regular oil changes.
Click to expand...

Corroision is a huge issue in aircraft not flown and a real engine killer based on lack of use. But, based on your scenario I would not think that would be an issue. If your cylinders show signs of corroision, what does everything else look like? When you do oil changes, do you send out oil samples for analysis? Has EGT or CHT temps changed? Notice anything unusual? I too might consider another set of eyes to take a look...
 
Wow, good to know. The plane was flown regularly but the coastal air certainly would be a factor.

I haven't noticed anything different with the temperatures, just started to notice that the engines weren't running quite a smoothly, the manifold pressure dropped 1/2"-but I think that was just the cable. Other than that, it runs pretty predictably and has never had a problem. This is why I am confused.
The plane had two oil changes this year and the mechanic said essentially, that had it been flown more or even had another oil change, this would not have been prevented.

Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate it. Sounds like I need more info from the mech and perhaps another opinion.
 
Living in the North East has it's own challenges w/ corroision. I do two things which make a difference. I add Camguard to every oil change and maintain a temp of 80+ degrees in the cowling via a heater. (hangered aircraft)

You might want to consider Camguard regardless of the outcome....
 
Did the shop owner just buy a new yacht? Maybe a payment is due and he needs your help. Seems very hard to believe that all cylinders need to be replaced. You need another opinion from someone who is not trying to sell you something, like cylinders.
 
anais said:
The plane had two oil changes this year and the mechanic said essentially, that had it been flown more or even had another oil change, this would not have been prevented.

Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate it. Sounds like I need more info from the mech and perhaps another opinion.
Click to expand...

Two oil changes this year? We fly 300 to 350 hours per year on our P-Baron and are past TBO on the engines; over 1,000 hours on the cylinders. We change oil between 25 and 35 hours. How can this plane be flow 26 times a year (at least every two weeks) and only have two oil changes? Flying low time or flights that aren't long enough to get the moisture out of the oil can certainly lead to issues like you describe.

I wouldn't put factory cylinders from TCM on a bird if I was keeping it and expect them to last. At least have the valve guides, sleeves and seating redone. I'd put on oversized rings also. You'll more than make that up in wear. As Bruce said, it is the weak point on the TCM cylinders.

Best,

Dave
 
I'm with Tom. If it passes the compression tests and isn't burning oil leave them alone. Pulling cylinders that are working just becasue they look bad in a borescope doesn't make sense. Charlie Melot Zephyr Aircraft Engines
 
Thanks again guys for the input. I am talking to the mechanic tomorrow. Here is what I got so far...
They want to overhaul the cylinders, not replace them and it'll be about $7000 a side. Charlie, What are the consequences if I don't do the work? Won't the corrosion just get worse?
thanks
a
 
anais said:
The plane has been with this shop for 8 years, and I think the relationship has always been trustworthy. That is my next step, to get more info specifically how they are determining and, yes, to show me:smile: thanks
Click to expand...

Some questions....

What was the compression with the master orafice tool?

What is leaking, rings or exhaust?

What do the EGT traces show?

and What does the borescope look like?

You need the answer to all of these before you start pulling cylinders.

It's possible to have one at 40#, leaking thru the exhaust, with good borescope and good traces and just be fine.... I've got one just like this and i'm not pulling it.
 
anais said:
Thanks again guys for the input. I am talking to the mechanic tomorrow. Here is what I got so far...
They want to overhaul the cylinders, not replace them and it'll be about $7000 a side. Charlie, What are the consequences if I don't do the work? Won't the corrosion just get worse?
thanks
a
Click to expand...

You haven't said what the nature of the deficiency is. Visual rust? Oil consumption? Ring blow by? If it's just visual it shouldn't get worse. In fact boring them p.015" oversize starts the cycle over again. Freshly honed steel cylinders are VERY prone to rusting. if you are going to overhaul the cylinders having them Cerminiled ends corrosion forever. Unfortunately it will take a month. Charlie Melot Zephyr Aircraft Engines
 
It is visual corrosion. What is Cerminiled? Thanks,a
 
I live on an Island with salt water all around, we have an arrow 3 with a tiso-360- Continental in it, and it gets flown maybe twice a year.., 6 hours last year. and has no corrosion problems in the cylinders.

if you can see visual rust in the cylinder start the engines and run them 30 minutes and change the oil and go fly, it's not a big deal.

when a cylinder rusts it leaves tiny cavities in the steel wall of the cylinders, these pits will fill with oil when the piston is above them, and be scraped off when the piston goes over them, when combustion occurs the oil will be burned and leave a hard carbon deposit in the pit. The rings will polish this carbon smooth filling the pit and the oil consumption will stop.

I would not change cylinders for this condition alone.
 
anais said:
It is visual corrosion. What is Cerminiled? Thanks,a
Click to expand...

It is a chorme process, with a different twist. it returns the cylinder to its original size, by plating the interior with a creamic impregnated chrome layer.

They last for ever, but many have a difficult time seating rings, they wear out the ring before it seats, but once seated the cylinder will not have any bore problems for a long time,

Do not hone in the normal manor, there special tools for these cylinders.
 
NC19143 said:
It is a chorme process, with a different twist. it returns the cylinder to its original size, by plating the interior with a creamic impregnated chrome layer.

They last for ever, but many have a difficult time seating rings, they wear out the ring before it seats, but once seated the cylinder will not have any bore problems for a long time,

Do not hone in the normal manor, there special tools for these cylinders.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that ECI's Cerminil doesn't involve chrome.

ECI said:
Chrome vs. Nickel
Chrome and nickel have many similarities but also one important difference. The two metals are similar in the sense that they can be plated on steel with excellent adhesion. The use of chromium for building up worn cylinder barrels has a long and successful history. Both nickel and chromium are very corrosion resistant and can be removed and replated multiple times. An important difference is that nickel is oil wettable and chromium is not.
Click to expand...
 
lancefisher said:
I was under the impression that ECI's Cerminil doesn't involve chrome.
Click to expand...

It's actually nickle, as the major alloy. But read the whole link you posted and you'll see where they say the two are almost alike, except the nickle is oil wetable, and chrome is not.
 
Thanks for all of your help. I have inquired into Cerminil and now it turns out that there is corrosion on the camshaft and they are recommending a full overhaul or repair. The quote I got is $50,000 for repair added to an existing airframe bill of $50,000. If I want to have an overhaul, the quote is $150,000! Does this seem right to anyone? Please, I would love some feedback.
Thanks,
anais
 
anais said:
Thanks for all of your help. I have inquired into Cerminil and now it turns out that there is corrosion on the camshaft and they are recommending a full overhaul or repair. The quote I got is $50,000 for repair added to an existing airframe bill of $50,000. If I want to have an overhaul, the quote is $150,000! Does this seem right to anyone? Please, I would love some feedback.
Thanks,
anais
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you can get a complete overhaul plus R&R for a lot less than $50k/side. Heck a factory Rebuilt engine is only $32-35k and it certainly can't cost $30k to hang two engines. In any case I'd insist on seeing the camshaft lobes being called unairworthy before proceeding with any overhaul.
 
lancefisher said:
I'm pretty sure you can get a complete overhaul plus R&R for a lot less than $50k/side. Heck a factory Rebuilt engine is only $32-35k and it certainly can't cost $30k to hang two engines. In any case I'd insist on seeing the camshaft lobes being called unairworthy before proceeding with any overhaul.
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Well, Anais *is* in California! :yikes:

Still, even for California that seems expensive. Of course, it is turbo'd and fuel injected... :dunno:

FWIW, AOPA Vref says that an overhaul on the Seneca V should cost roughly $35,000 and a factory reman is $51,688. :hairraise:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Doubt it... We're looking at $26,000 just for overhauling the O-470 in the 182. Injected and turbo'd engines always seem to cost more.
Click to expand...

Well, like I posted earlier, AirPower shows their price for a rebuilt TSIO360 to be around $35-35k. Maybe that $51.6k number is the TCM list price for one.
 
lancefisher said:
Well, like I posted earlier, AirPower shows their price for a rebuilt TSIO360 to be around $35-35k. Maybe that $51.6k number is the TCM list price for one.
Click to expand...

Air Power's "street price" for TSIO-360-RB's is a tad over $49K. New is $10K more. FWIW we get around $35K for overhauls. R & I plus mounts and hoses will add $4K+ a side. Charlie Melot Zephyr Aircraft Engines
 
Hi guys,

I checked Air Power and it is pretty pricey. What's your experience with corrosion? They found a small pitt on one of the lobes which I know can deteriorate pretty fast once it starts to go. The other appears to be just a marking. One engine is better than two:smile:
 
The cylinder rust issue doesn't bother me that much. I find many cylinders with light rust on the top side of the bore. If you don't have any oil consumption problems I wouldn't do anything.

The cam issue is a constant problem for me. Sometimes we find a real disaster and other times we're stuck with making a judgement call on what will be safe for continued service. I am comfortable with a small pit on the lobes if the oil filter is watched closely at oil change and the lifter is pulled at annuals to look for spalling on the lobe and lifter face.

I think I know where the aircraft is and they may be too conservative to consider this course of action. I don't believe they would consider following an outside plan of action either. You are left with fixing the aircraft there or flying it out. Flying it out becomes fun when the slow, hungry shop makes it difficult and calls the FAA. It won't fly out,trust me I have been there. They may not want it to leave

I hope this helps. Good luck, Kevin
 
Dang. It's like a chinese finger-cuff.

We really need a place to report these sort of operators -- even though I don't think this is specifically a shady way to do things (since a Repair Station has specific ways they gotta do things) -- but a place to report the "prevailling policies" sure would be nice.

Good luck on the fix. I try to get one opinion per $10,000 quoted. Line up 15 shops, let the bidding begin :D
 
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