Seeking medical cert help!!

Also, to Peter’s point, anyone who forgoes their own medical care so they can keep flying is an idiot, I’m sorry.
Can you see how this is not necessarily always black and white? Health issues come in a wide variety of severities right?

Say your arm is a bit sore from a vigorous game of volleyball two days ago. Does that mean you shouldn’t fly?

What about you are now still feeling a little sore from a cold you had two weeks ago?

Some conditions are obviously dangerous to fly with, e.g. being on major anti-psychotics. Others are obviously safe to fly with. But a very large number live on a subtle boundary in between.

It is precisely these where a coercive regulatory agency is likely to act in an overly conservative manner. That may seem like the safe thing to do and “better safe than sorry”. However, the fact that it is coercive may create unintended consequences which actually DECREASE overall safety.

It is very tempting cognitively to ignore these effects because they are unintended and often somewhat less visible. But it is not good public policy.
 
Whenever we let “the market decide,” the end is inevitable disaster.

A large body of literature on that subject obviously. What data do you base that conclusion on which pertains to aviation? (I don’t want to get in trouble for going off on pure politics).

Aviation in this country has been heavily regulated for nearly 100 years. Until 1978 we had the prices and routes for airlines assigned by a government board!
 
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That’s a minuscule sample size. And we have a very large sample size of well-regulated (to coin a phrase) pilots where medical incapacities are extremely, extremely rare. Almost unheard of.

Do you have data or a citation for that? I am quite curious.

It may be that medical incapacity endangering flight is very rare, but it strikes me that may be due to two pilots in the cockpit. Alternately it may be due to the carriers own rules regarding fitness for duty, rather than the FAA’s aeromedical regulations.

It seems that data on this may be available. Certainly we heard many anecdotal stories about the commercial pilot who has a heart attack during a flight, and the other pilot has to take over.
 
Why keep ignoring parts of the argument and against regulation?
Because you never support it with anything but your own opinion and your own interpretation of numbers from which no conclusion can be drawn.
 
Do you have data or a citation for that? I am quite curious.

It may be that medical incapacity endangering flight is very rare, but it strikes me that may be due to two pilots in the cockpit. Alternately it may be due to the carriers own rules regarding fitness for duty, rather than the FAA’s aeromedical regulations.

It seems that data on this may be available. Certainly we heard many anecdotal stories about the commercial pilot who has a heart attack during a flight, and the other pilot has to take over.
You’re the one who needs to support your opinion. It’s not my responsibility to refute it (although it’s easy and I’ve done it).

You keep saying the same things over and over again, and you never support any of it. You just keep citing “all the evidence”. Sorry. It’s not there. All you have is opinions and suppositions.
 
Say your arm is a bit sore from a vigorous game of volleyball two days ago. Does that mean you shouldn’t fly?

What about you are now still feeling a little sore from a cold you had two weeks ago?

Some conditions are obviously dangerous to fly with, e.g. being on major anti-psychotics. Others are obviously safe to fly with. But a very large number live on a subtle boundary in between.

It is precisely these where a coercive regulatory agency is likely to act in an overly conservative manner. That may seem like the safe thing to do and “better safe than sorry”. However, the fact that it is coercive may create unintended consequences which actually DECREASE overall safety.

It is very tempting cognitively to ignore these effects because they are unintended and often somewhat less visible. But it is not good public policy.
“It might...”
“May...”
“Might...”

All opinions. And thank God that “coercive regulatory agencies” are by nature overly conservative rather than the opposite. That’s the whole point.
 
Because you never support it with anything but your own opinion and your own interpretation of numbers from which no conclusion can be drawn.

As to the numbers, that is incorrect. The data from the sport pilot are a small sample size, yet it does not indicate that the regulations improve the safety of flight in any statistically significant way.

One can discuss the power of that dataset to detect a change of a certain magnitude. However, it is incorrect to say “no conclusion can be drawn”. It is valid to say that those data are not terribly strong, I would agree there.

To be objective, they must be weighed appropriately against the other evidence. I find the evidence in favor of the hypothesis that FAA aeromedical regulation improves the safety of flight to be quite weak. It consists almost solely of the fact that we've had those regulations and our commercial safety record is good. Technically that is a form of the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. As I have noted many times, we have not seen evoked here any good study or data that this hypothesis is true.
 
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You just keep citing “all the evidence”.

Those statements have to do with the large body of literature having to do with the unintended side effects of regulation, the effects of regulatory capture, and the typical behaviors of regulatory agencies. Are you familiar with that literature?

I assume these are fairly well known to people who argue strongly for the positive need for regulations in public fora, but I may be mistaken.

Would you like me to provide you with some pointers?
 
You’re the one who needs to support your opinion.

Let's review the context here with regard to the facts which have been provided and what constitutes opinion. You wrote:

The arguments in favor, specifically the history of basic med and sport pilot, just doesn’t hold water. That’s a minuscule sample size. And we have a very large sample size of well-regulated (to coin a phrase) pilots where medical incapacities are extremely, extremely rare. Almost unheard of.

That is a direct assertion of a fact that commercial pilots who have a FAA issued medical have almost unheard of medical incapacities.

I then asked what data there was to support that.

Do you have data or a citation for that? I am quite curious.

I don't believe there has been any data provided here to support this assertion about the rate of medical incapacities, but please correct me if I am mistaken.

But perhaps the post making that assertion was a subjective impression based on limited anecdotal experience and thus sort of an opinion? (For reference, here is a definition o·pin·ion noun 1. a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.)
 
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Let's review the context here with regard to the facts which have been provided and what constitutes opinion. You wrote:



That is a direct assertion of a fact that commercial pilots who have a FAA issued medical have almost unheard of medical incapacities.

I then asked what data there was to support that.



I don't believe there has been any data provided here to support this assertion about the rate of medical incapacities, but please correct me if I am mistaken.

But perhaps the post making that assertion was a subjective impression based on limited anecdotal experience and thus sort of an opinion? (For reference, here is a definition o·pin·ion noun 1. a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.)
Google is your friend.

Frequency and Rate of In-Flight Medical Events

We found 39 incapacitations and 11 impairments of U.S. airline pilots on 47 flights during the period 1993 to 1998 (More than one pilot was affected on three flights. SeeTableA-2, CaseSummaries, in AppendixA.). During this period, U.S. airlines flew a total of 85,732,000 revenue passengers hours (26); therefore, the rate of in-flight in- capacitations and impairments was 0.04549 per 100,000 hours (95% CI 0.04545, 0.04553) and 0.01283 per 100,000 hours (95% CI 0.01281, 0.01285), respectively. A summary of the in-flight medical events is contained in Appendix A, Table A-2.

https://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/faa-aviation-medicine-reports/AM04-16.pdf

Further, it found that out of 54,295,899 commercial flights during the period from 1993 through 1998, there were two accidents attributed to a medical incapacitation of the pilot. Two.

Does 2 in 54,295,899 strike you as “extremely, extremely rare”?
 
Those statements have to do with the large body of literature having to do with the unintended side effects of regulation, the effects of regulatory capture, and the typical behaviors of regulatory agencies. Are you familiar with that literature?

I assume these are fairly well known to people who argue strongly for the positive need for regulations in public fora, but I may be mistaken.

Would you like me to provide you with some pointers?
You keep talking and have still yet to support anything you’ve said.
 
You keep talking and have still yet to support anything you’ve said.

Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration? I have noted exactly what the meaning of the sport pilot data is and why I think it is somewhat meaningful, particularly as compared to the only argument in support of the efficacy of FAA medical regulation, which is an ergo propter hoc fallacy and consists of practically no data at all.

And evidently my offer to provide some pointers was ignored. Would you like me to provide you some pointers to this literature? And if so, will you have a look at some of it?

Or would you prefer that I find one example of regulatory failure to discuss? Clearly the whole literature can not be summarized in a quick post here.

Here is a perhaps more practical and important question -- what sort of evidence would persuade you that FAA medical regulation is not helpful or necessary? Is there any that could in fact be practically produced which would persuade you of that?
 
The libertarian argument always sounds good, but inevitably they love the upside of their argument (freedom) and don’t like the downside (responsibility).
Clearly you do not know (m)any libertarians. Personal responsibility is sort of their thing. Your arguments also ignore unintended consequences, substitution effects, and allocation of resources (even with confiscatory taxation, government's resources are limited).
 
Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration? I have noted exactly what the meaning of the sport pilot data is and why I think it is somewhat meaningful, particularly as compared to the only argument in support of the efficacy of FAA medical regulation, which is an ergo propter hoc fallacy and consists of practically no data at all.

And evidently my offer to provide some pointers was ignored. Would you like me to provide you some pointers to this literature? And if so, will you have a look at some of it?

Or would you prefer that I find one example of regulatory failure to discuss? Clearly the whole literature can not be summarized in a quick post here.

Here is a perhaps more practical and important question -- what sort of evidence would persuade you that FAA medical regulation is not helpful or necessary? Is there any that could in fact be practically produced which would persuade you of that?
Why do you keep asking if I want to see the mass of evidence you have to refute the safety influence of FAA regulations instead of just posting it? You asked me for evidence, and instead of talking in circles I replied with it. It took me five minutes.

Two medical incapacitation incidences in 55 million flights is my evidence. What’s yours?
 
Google is your friend. Further, it found that out of 54,295,899 commercial flights during the period from 1993 through 1998, there were two accidents attributed to a medical incapacitation of the pilot. Two.

Does 2 in 54,295,899 strike you as “extremely, extremely rare”?

So here we are getting somewhere, thanks for finding that. So the 2 number refers to accidents caused by incapacitation, which is different from the original assertion which dealt with medical incapacities being "extremely, extremely rare". The rate of those, plus the closely related impairments is evidently 0.04549 per 100,000 hours.

That is also quite rare. But the functional question is whether it is significantly less than the rate in sport pilots? That is probably much harder to estimate given the difficulties of estimating the denominator (I have tried but not found good numbers on that. If you Google-fu can turn some data up, I am happy to try and see if a statistical comparison can be made.) If one had those two sets of numbers, one could try and draw a better conclusion about whether the regulations were CORRELATED with a lower rate of incapacitations or accidents.

Then to use this as evidence that this low rate implies the FAA aeromedical regulation have a positive effect, one would have to decide how of that low rate is due to the regulations, versus say the airline fitness for duty requirements. These are hard things to estimate.

A better way to study this would be to compare the rates of accidents before and after the introduction of regulations. Unfortunately, I don't think this was done historically.
 
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Clearly you do not know (m)any libertarians. Personal responsibility is sort of their thing. Your arguments also ignore unintended consequences, substitution effects, and allocation of resources (even with confiscatory taxation, government's resources are limited).
I’ve known plenty of libertarians, and they’re all the same.
 
Why do you keep asking if I want to see the mass of evidence you have to refute the safety influence of FAA regulations instead of just posting it?

Please DO NOT misquote me (straw man fallacy). What I said was there existed
the large body of literature having to do with the unintended side effects of regulation, the effects of regulatory capture, and the typical behaviors of regulatory agencies

If you would like a pointer to start into that literature, from a pro-freedom point of view, please see the already mentioned book by Mises on Bureaucracy. It is a free download at https://mises.org/library/bureaucracy. Even the first few chapters will lay out parts of the basic argument.

In terms of the effects of FAA aeromedical regulation on safety, really closer to the OP here, I have summarized the direct data as follows in a post above as
One can discuss the power of that dataset to detect a change of a certain magnitude. However, it is incorrect to say “no conclusion can be drawn”. It is valid to say that those data are not terribly strong, I would agree there.

To be objective, they must be weighed appropriately against the other evidence. I find the evidence in favor of the hypothesis that FAA aeromedical regulation improves the safety of flight to be quite weak. It consists almost solely of the fact that we've had those regulations and our commercial safety record is good.
I believe you have read that post.

I believe the large body of literature on the ineffectiveness of coercive regulation bears on this question INDIRECTLY and suggests that we should skeptical of claims that FAA aeromedical regulation is effective without good evidence.

But again, the more practical question, what sort of evidence would persuade you that FAA medical regulation is not helpful or necessary? Is there any that could in fact be practically produced which would persuade you of that?

If it is not possible to name some, then this is effectively a non-falsifiable belief.
 
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To no one in particular: I've noticed that people always wants the burden of proof to be on the other side. :D
 
To no one in particular: I've noticed that people always wants the burden of proof to be on the other side. :D

That is true of course, but the proper resolution is that the burden of proof is on he who asserts existence. To adopt any other standard is to make it trivial to prove absurdities, for example, that there are non-corporeal dragons in my garage. Carl Sagan writes amusingly about this.
 
Just wondering: What is the difference between a coercive regulation and a non-coercive regulation? Can you give an example of each?

Good question, thanks. We have had a long related discussion before.

I would define a coercive regulation as any regulation to which you have not voluntarily agreed where the ultimate enforcement for non-compliance involves the use of physical force or threat thereof. Please note I said ultimate, so this would include any regulation in which if you don't comply, and you subsequently also refuse to comply with the consequences, force will be used against you.

Example of a coercive regulation - you must obtain a FAA medical certificate before flying your own aircraft. There is a threat of ultimate use of force if you don't comply and you did not voluntarily agree to this. As you have noted, the threat is pretty gentle and is often resolved without any violence, but that is only because people comply. Almost every regulation currently by the government falls into this category.

A non-coercive regulation would be any regulation which you have freely agreed to or is not ultimately backed by the use of physical force or the threat thereof.

Example of a non-coercive regulation - you must keep your lawn appropriately watered in your neighborhood per your association agreement where you voluntarily purchased a house. In this case, you voluntarily agreed to purchase the house and comply by the terms of the association agreement. These are often backed by contract law, so there is an ultimate threat of the use of violence for failure to comply.

Aviation has of course been heavily regulated from the very beginning, so I can imagine a lot of scenarios where things could be argued to be somewhat murky in terms of these distinctions. But I think a fair number of cases are clear.

I have speculated with my wife that it might be possible to create non-coercive regulations created by the government. The government could have regulations where the only punishment is being placed on a list of regulation violators, but no physical violence would ever possibly be used, there is no threat. Unclear how much deterrent that would actually create, though maybe some, especially in this day and age of readily accessible data on the web. Mostly just a thought experiment though.
 
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Example of a non-coercive regulation - you must keep your lawn appropriately watered in your neighborhood per your association agreement where you voluntarily purchased a house. In this case, you voluntarily agreed to purchase the house and comply by the terms of the association agreement. These are often backed by contract law, so there is an ultimate threat of the use of violence for failure to comply.

I'm not buying this so-called distinction. I was under the impression that ALL agreements were backed by contract law. Furthermore, just like you voluntarily agree to purchase a house, you voluntarily decide to become a pilot. However, under that logic, ALL regulation of pilots would be "non-coercive."

I have speculated with my wife that it might be possible to create non-coercive regulations created by the government. The government could have regulations where the only punishment is being placed on a list of regulation violators, but no physical violence would ever possibly be used, there is no threat. Unclear how much deterrent that would actually create, though maybe some, especially in this day and age of readily accessible data on the web. Mostly just a thought experiment though.

Sounds like you can't actually show me an example of a real-life "non-coercive" government regulation as you use the term.
 
There was short article published last November (Aerospace Medicine and Human Performance, Volume 89, Number 11, November 2018, pp. 1002-1004(3)) titled Aviation Accident Causes Among Sport Pilots as Compared to Class 3 Private Pilots from 2004–2017. It's behind a paywall, but I was curious enough to pay $27.00 to download a copy. It's basically a comment on a 2016 article purportedly demonstrating that sport pilots using a valid driver license had a higher accident rate than private pilots with Class 3 medical certificates. They concluded that this privilege should not be extended to a broader range of pilots due to the higher accident rate, but they failed to investigate why these pilots crashed.

The author of the Aerospace Medicine and Human Performance article reviewed The NTSB database for the entire period that sport pilot has been available, and reasons for the accidents were determined, both for sport pilots and private pilots with Class 3 medicals.

The results of the review showed that sport pilot accidents were caused by medical incapacitation 3.7% of the time, while private pilots with Class 3 medicals had accidents that cited medical incapacitation 2.5% of the time. Medical incapacitation represents either a probable cause or contributing factor in aviation accidents less than 5% of the time. The author concluded that although there is a slightly higher rate where the NTSB cited incapacitation among pilots not receiving regular aeromedical evaluations, the difference was not statistically significant.

It would be interesting to know the average age of both groups. I suspect the average age of sport pilots is significantly higher than private pilots with third class medical certificates; many pilots exercising sport pilot privileges are older and hold private, commercial, or even ATP certificates, but simply don't want to deal with the aeromedical bureaucracy.
 
I'm not buying this so-called distinction. I was under the impression that ALL agreements were backed by contract law. Furthermore, just like you voluntarily agree to purchase a house, you voluntarily decide to become a pilot. However, under that logic, ALL regulation of pilots would be "non-coercive."

I think one of the distinctions here is that you can buy a house somewhere else or not buy one at all and still live within the general geographic area where you reside. Also most neighborhoods actually don't have such association agreements. That is more voluntary than the regulations enforced on anyone who happens to want to fly in the USA.

So if you don't want to think of that as a useful categorical distinction, perhaps we could agree that one is more coercive than the other on a continuum?

I think that coercion, in a finer analysis, really is best regarded as being on a scale and as having different types. What I think is really potentially bad is the use of physical violence or threat thereof. Much more dangerous than say being "coerced" by someone just verbally berating you or offering you a lot of money to do something you don't want to. Physical violence can irrevocably injure or kill you. A verbal berating or not taking money doesn't do that.

I agree that non-coercive regulations are considerably rarer than coercive ones, unfortunately, in our present state of affairs.

To try and argue that everyone who happens to live in a particular geographic area has somehow "agreed" to follow some set of rules is essentially to argue for Rousseau's social contract theory. There is a long history of debate about that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract.

When we are talking about governmental laws and regulations in this regard the major problems with that theory are that this supposed "contract" was never available for us to observe and agree to when we could have made a meaningful choice about it. There is a big difference with a housing association agreement -- the contract was available before you decided to purchase the house and you could read it and hire an attorney and then decide whether or not it was for you.

Personally I much prefer a natural rights based approach. You only have a right to use physical force or threat thereof in retaliation or to prevent violence from being used against you. You can pool together with others in your neighborhood that right and hire police, courts, etc. You can also choose to enter into a contract, complete with covenants of non-fraud, faithful execution, etc which will potentially be enforced using physical force, but that is up to you, and voluntary. But if someone hasn't entered into a voluntary contract with you and hasn't used physical force against you, or presented a clear and present danger of doing so, you have no right to use physical force against them or threaten to do so.

Applying such theory to the question of aeromedical regulation. One might try and make an argument that simply flying a heavy airplane over someone's house or person is sufficiently dangerous that it constitutes a threat to possibly inflict physical force and harm on someone. I don't know the numbers off hand, but it seems that threat is deminimus and fairly small by comparison to the possible threats we tolerate in everyday life. And even if such a threat were regarded as not deminimus and worth worrying about, then one would have to demonstrate that the threat is sufficiently higher in the case of those who don't have an FAA medical certificate compared to those which do in order to justify the use of a coercive regulation. I could be convinced by the data, but despite my repeated queries here, haven't seen that.

I am not convinced on either count -- either that the threat is more than deminimus or that the difference is significantly different. Therefore I argue that such imposition of a regulation, backed by the potential use of physical force, is not justified from a natural rights perspective.

Maybe one could argue that certain dangerous behaviors in an airplane, such as diving at high speeds towards someone's house, are sufficiently dangerous that one is justified in having a law or regulation to forbid it. But that is a different question from whether having an aeromedical certificate indicates a sufficiently reduced risk that it should be reflected in law.
 
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The results of the review showed that sport pilot accidents were caused by medical incapacitation 3.7% of the time, while private pilots with Class 3 medicals had accidents that cited medical incapacitation 2.5% of the time. Medical incapacitation represents either a probable cause or contributing factor in aviation accidents less than 5% of the time. The author concluded that although there is a slightly higher rate where the NTSB cited incapacitation among pilots not receiving regular aeromedical evaluations, the difference was not statistically significant.
(emphasis added)

I think this is the sort of weaker evidence that argues that medical certification does not improve the safety of flight. As noted by others, it is not conclusive by any stretch.

Clearly something causes commercial flights in the US to be orders of magnitude safer than private flights by pilots holding either a medical certificate or not. The fact that there is such a large difference between commercial and non-commercial strongly suggests that there is some other factor than having a medical certificate which matters. I believe many have suggested it is the stricter standards for training which have made the largest difference over the last several decades.
 
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@Palmpilot It occurs to me, given our long prior discussions of this subject, that I should perhaps ask a question similar to the one I have asked others here. I really do think it helps to clarify whether something is a falsifiable belief or non-falsifiable.

What evidence would persuade you that the existing aeromedical regulations do not effectively improve the safety of flight? At least evidence which could in principle exist and would be persuasive.

Because if there is some, then one can often tease these issues apart further by asking how close the present evidence is to such. OTOH, if there is none which would be persuasive, then the belief that aeromedical regulations effectively improve the safety of flight is just that, a belief, like a belief in a religion. It is best then to just agree to disagree I think.
 
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I think one of the distinctions here is that you can buy a house somewhere else or not buy one at all and still live within the general geographic area where you reside. Also most neighborhoods actually don't have such association agreements. That is more voluntary than the regulations enforced on anyone who happens to want to fly in the USA.

If you're saying that the house-buying example is not applicable to FAA regulations, I agree with you, but you're the one who brought it up.

I agree that non-coercive regulations are considerably rarer than coercive ones, unfortunately, in our present state of affairs.

So far, I haven't seen even ONE example of a non-coercive regulation. That's why I'm not buying the distinction. Regulations have the force of law, and they can be enforced with real penalties, ultimately backed up by the threat of fines or imprisonment. ALL regulations are coercive, and that means that this whole discussion of "coercive" regulations is a red herring, because it distracts from the real issues, which are whether the particular regulations being considered accomplish a legitimate public purpose, and whether they do more good than harm.
 
Clearly something causes commercial flights in the US to be orders of magnitude safer than private flights by pilots holding either a medical certificate or not. The fact that there is such a large difference between commercial and non-commercial strongly suggests that there is some other factor than having a medical certificate which matters. I believe many have suggested it is the stricter standards for training which have made the largest difference over the last several decades.

There is also the fact the commercial levels of medical certification are stricter than those for third class and below. I do believe, however, that the level of recurrent training and the procedures required in commercial operations are responsible for the lion's share of the airlines' exemplary safety record.
 
@PalmpilotWhat evidence would persuade you that the existing aeromedical regulations do not effectively improve the safety of flight? At least evidence which could in principle exist and would be persuasive.

It would be just as valid to ask what evidence would persuade me that the existing aeromedical regulations do effectively improve the safety of flight, because I don't have a firm belief one way or the other. I just feel that the discussion would be more useful if red herrings were left out of it.

If it were possible to set up an experiment where half the pilots in each type of flying were subject to the current aeromedical regulations and half were subject to none, that might yield some useful data, but I don't see any way to set up something like a double-blind study on the subject, and in any case I think it's obvious that such a study would not be politically feasible.
 

If you're saying that the house-buying example is not applicable to FAA regulations, I agree with you, but you're the one who brought it up.



So far, I haven't seen even ONE example of a non-coercive regulation. That's why I'm not buying the distinction. Regulations have the force of law, and they can be enforced with real penalties, ultimately backed up by the threat of fines or imprisonment. ALL regulations are coercive, and that means that this whole discussion of "coercive" regulations is a red herring, because it distracts from the real issues, which are whether the particular regulations being considered accomplish a legitimate public purpose, and whether they do more good than harm.

Hmm. Somehow it seems like we are not understanding each other here.

Would you agree there is a distinction in the level of coerciveness between 1) choosing to buy a house in a neighborhood and executing a home association agreement and 2) finding oneself in a country where there are regulations requiring you to obtain a medical certificate simply because you want to fly an airplane?

BTW, I think nearly all my discussion regarding aeromedical regulation in this thread used the term “coercive regulation”. I don’t think I ever raised a distinction in this thread. So in a sense I agree that isn’t the main point. You could go back and substitute “regulation” for “coercive regulation” everywhere in those arguments, I believe. I was actually a little puzzled why that question was raised.
 
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There is also the fact the commercial levels of medical certification are stricter than those for third class and below. I do believe, however, that the level of recurrent training and the procedures required in commercial operations are responsible for the lion's share of the airlines' exemplary safety record.

True, but the differences in the strictness of the aeromedical standards are pretty minor, aren’t they? I guess the main ones would just be the timeframes of validity.

It strikes me it would be hard to ascribe much of the large difference in safety between commercial flight and private flight to the aeromedical standards differences when the apparent difference between a 3rd class and no certificate in terms of safety are so small and not significant.
 
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It would be just as valid to ask what evidence would persuade me that the existing aeromedical regulations do effectively improve the safety of flight, because I don't have a firm belief one way or the other. I just feel that the discussion would be more useful if red herrings were left out of it.

I think the question of what is an appropriate level of evidence does enter into the political domain. Inevitably one has to ask, when are we justified enforcing a regulation — how strong should the evidence be before we are willing to do that?

I imagine we would agree that the government should not enforce a regulation preventing people from eating Doritos in flight just because someone at the FAA hates Doritos and prefers pretzels as a snack.

On the other side of the continuum of proof, I imagine we would also agree that people and by extension the government are justified in enforcing a regulation forbidding people from dive-bombing near other people’s houses dropping a kilogram of high explosive.

The latter is fairly obviously a clear and present danger to others and the former is just silly. The evidence for these seems rather clear and does not give rise to a scientific empirical question.

The question of the effectiveness of existing aeromedical regulations is a more subtle one. Thus the question of the standard of evidence to be applied in debating such regulations will become more critical.

I don’t mean it to be a distraction or red herring. But I think it is important to understand which differences in evaluation are due to different standards of evidence, reflecting a different view of the moral justification for regulations, and which are due to differences in interpreting the limited data. The former is essentially a philosophical difference; the latter is essentially empirical.

This is why I ask about the standards of evidence required for enforcing such regulations. Thus casting my query in the other light, how much evidence do you think should be required to enforce an aeromedical regulation? Is a good hunch sufficient? Some suggestive data? A preponderance of evidence they will reduce clear and present danger? Clear and convincing data that it will reduce a clear and present danger? Proof beyond a reasonable doubt?

The answer to that and it’s justification I think is inherently a philosophical or moral question. I honestly can’t see a way to avoid it. Certainly one can simply agree to a certain standard without debating it, but I do think in such subtle questions as this one has to have some agreed upon standard for discussions of the empirical questions to be truly meaningful.

I think it is particularly important in a case such as this, where I suspect you and I have a similar view of the data itself and its limitations. Our remaining differences may simply reflect different standards of evidence to be applied when trying to justify enforcement of a regulation.
 
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Hmm. Somehow it seems like we are not understanding each other here.
I agree.

Would you agree there is a distinction in the level of coerciveness between choosing to buy a house in a neighborhood and executing a home association agreement and finding oneself in a country where there are regulations requiring you to obtain a medical certificate simply because you want to fly an airplane?

Avoiding being subject to a regulation does not make that regulation non-coercive. It just means that it doesn't apply to you.

BTW, I think nearly all my discussion regarding aeromedical regulation in this thread used the term “coercive regulation”. I don’t think I ever raised a distinction in this thread. So in a sense I agree that isn’t the main point. You could go back in substitute “regulation” for coercive regulation everywhere in those arguments, I believe. I was actually a little puzzled why that question was raised.

Your consistent use of the phrase "coercive regulation" implies that you consider the modifier "coercive" to be necessary, which implies that there is a distinction between coercive regulations and non-coercive regulations. Otherwise what purpose would be served by consistently using the modifier? This led me to ask, in Post #60, what the difference was between coercive and non-coercive regulations, and what would be an example of each. In Post #64, you explained what you considered the distinction between them to be, and I have been trying to explain why that distinction doesn't seem valid to me. In essence, my argument is that there is no such thing as a non-coercive regulation, and therefore the repeated characterization of a particular body of regulations as "coercive" seems like a red herring.
 
True, but the differences in the strictness of the aeromedical standards are pretty minor, aren’t they? I guess the main ones would just be the timeframes of validity.

It strikes me it would be hard to ascribe much of the large difference in safety between commercial flight and private flight to the aeromedical standards differences when the apparent difference between a 3rd class and no certificate in terms of safety are so small and not significant.
Perhaps.
 
I think the question of what is an appropriate level of evidence does enter into the political domain. Inevitably one has to ask, when are we justified enforcing a regulation — how strong should the evidence be before we are willing to do that?

I imagine we would agree that the government should not enforce a regulation preventing people from eating Doritos in flight just because someone at the FAA hates Doritos and prefers pretzels as a snack.

On the other side of the continuum of proof, I imagine we would also agree that people and by extension the government are justified in enforcing a regulation forbidding people from dive-bombing near other people’s houses dropping a kilogram of high explosive.

The latter is fairly obviously a clear and present danger to others and the former is just silly. The evidence for these seems rather clear and does not give rise to a scientific empirical question.

The question of the effectiveness of existing aeromedical regulations is a more subtle one. Thus the question of the standard of evidence to be applied in debating such regulations will become more critical.

I don’t mean it to be a distraction or red herring. But I think it is important to understand which differences in evaluation are due to different standards of evidence, reflecting a different view of the moral justification for regulations, and which are due to differences in interpreting the limited data. The former is essentially a philosophical difference; the latter is essentially empirical.

This is why I ask about the standards of evidence required for enforcing such regulations. Thus casting my query in the other light, how much evidence do you think should be required to enforce an aeromedical regulation? Is a good hunch sufficient? Some suggestive data? A preponderance of evidence they will reduce clear and present danger? Clear and convincing data that it will reduce a clear and present danger? Proof beyond a reasonable doubt?

The answer to that and it’s justification I think is inherently a philosophical or moral question. I honestly can’t see a way to avoid it. Certainly one can simply agree to a certain standard without debating it, but I do think in such subtle questions as this one has to have some agreed upon standard for discussions of the empirical questions to be truly meaningful.

I think it is particularly important in a case such as this, where I suspect you and I have a similar view of the data itself and its limitations. Our remaining differences may simply reflect different standards of evidence to be applied when trying to justify enforcement of a regulation.
I agree that there are unnecessary regulations, but figuring out which ones is the hard part!
 
Interesting comments although totally irrelevant. We are entitled to our thoughts and opinions but life is bounded by laws and government policy/procedure. Sometimes we have input into the form and substance of them but we are bound and controlled by the authorities interpretation and enforcement.

Proposing "experiments" especially with medical criteria is an interesting and perhaps wonderful mental exercise that will never happen. But let the games continue!
 
I agree that there are unnecessary regulations, but figuring out which ones is the hard part!

Ok, but what standard of evidence should be applied to determine whether enforcement of the regulation is justified ? Or necessary?

I think it is clear that will need to be decided on before any such discussion of necessity is meaningful and any progress can be made on deciding which is which.
 
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