Second gliding lesson

rottydaddy

rottydaddy

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Sunday was a bust, but I managed to escape work early yesterday for the regular Tuesday meet-up, and was rewarded with good conditions.
Got there early enough to go up twice with Herb, and although I personally felt even more noobish on the first flight than I did last time, on the second I had a few moments of "aha...now I see", and in general, H. thought I did quite well. Managed to completely box the wake this time (although not without jerking Mike around a little-LOL), we also did some stalls in turns (off tow of course), and I even got a spin demo (about 1 turn), which was a whole lotta fun (never experienced a proper spin before).
We played with a little lift at the end of the second flight, but it was all about basic air work anyway, not about soaring.

Best thing of all was that the Citabria actually started for both of my tows... maybe my jinx is wearing off. :rolleyes:

A pretty good lesson... and I'm not bored yet. :D

Here's a pic of Greg and Herb arriving in the 2-33,...
 

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rottydaddy said:
Sunday was a bust, but I managed to escape work early yesterday for the regular Tuesday meet-up, and was rewarded with good conditions.
Got there early enough to go up twice with Herb, and although I personally felt even more noobish on the first flight than I did last time, on the second I had a few moments of "aha...now I see", and in general, H. thought I did quite well. Managed to completely box the wake this time (although not without jerking Mike around a little-LOL), we also did some stalls in turns (off tow of course), and I even got a spin demo (about 1 turn), which was a whole lotta fun (never experienced a proper spin before).
We played with a little lift at the end of the second flight, but it was all about basic air work anyway, not about soaring.

Best thing of all was that the Citabria actually started for both of my tows... maybe my jinx is wearing off. :rolleyes:

A pretty good lesson... and I'm not bored yet. :D
Click to expand...

Cool! I got the opportunity to go up last Saturday, but nothing was happening by the time I arrived and most everybody was falling out. We caught a little zero-sink, but nothing worth hanging around for. I tried flying tow for a bit, but the extreme control inputs are/were throwing me for a loop! I'm used to nudging the plane where I want it to go - but in the 2-33, it seems like you have to go near full deflection one way or another to get any reaction. Guess I'm gonna have to PAY Tony to show me how to do it. ;)

Here's a pic of Greg and Herb arriving in the 2-33,...
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Ahhhh... DaVinci!!! That's the only glider here in Ames that I can fit in. It is indeed a work of art. ;)
 
:DHerb keeps telling me it's a "3-finger glider" but I feel like I have to really strongarm it to get it to bank much at all... and of course one is crushing one's own leg when putting in full aileron. :D

I like the pitch sensitivity, though- that part is coming easily to me. The rudder is very useful, too.
And my feet are starting to get used to the weird rudder pedals... I was trying to slide my feet Cessna-style with my heels on the floor. :rolleyes:

Someone was telling me yesterday that most of the members prefer the 33 for solo flight over the 1-26... apparently it's a different animal with a lighter load, and it's roomier. The club "champion", who I haven't met yet, apparently prefers the trainer for his long solo hops.

FWIW, regarding flying on tow, the thing he keeps telling me that seems to help most is (in normal turns): "wait 2 seconds, roll to match his bank; rudder to point the nose at his high wing; then let him whip you around." I thought I understood this until I stopped being aggressive with the rudder and thought more in terms of timing things so I'm easing off rudder pressure, if that makes any sense. Thinking of it differently sort of cleaned that up for me. boxing the wake is another story- I'm still having trouble knowing when to start or stop each move; it's frustrating.

I did sort of make a breakthrough with staying level on tow- just have to ignore the real horizon, especially in the turns. When we were headed west on tow, there was not much horizon at all, and after a moment of confusion, I realized "aha- just match his wings; trust him". this seems to apply very well even when you do have a solid horizon to look at.

But whatever... we're both noobs; between us we know about zero.
 
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Hello glider guys,

AHHH, the Schweizer 2-33. In my opinion a great aircraft to learn stick and rudder skills in. Hundreds of CAP and ROTC cadets get their first taste of flight in one and by training in them they develop skills yolk and tricycle gear only jockeys will never know they missed. I took lessons in a 2-33 about two years ago and very easily passed my FAA checkride for the glider rating in October 2007. In November I traveled out of State to find a Blanik L23 to get checked out in. The transition was a piece of cake. One 3000 AGL tow and one 1000 AGL tow and the instructor said "have fun" and jumped out. You will not bump your legs with the stick in the Blanik. It seems that one half inch stick movement in the Blanik will do the same as 3 inches of stick movement in the 2-33. The controls in the Blanik seem similar to a Pitts with the power off. We also do some auto tows with a 1250 foot line and a Chevy diesel truck or Hummer towing. On days with no lift we get 800-1000 AGL short pattern flights and you will not believe how much fun they are until you try it. Also a lot of fun to do the tows. My advice to you guys is to get your rating in the 2-33 and slip into a Blanik or other higher performance sailplane and "soar with the eagles"! I know you WILL have fun!
 
So who is flying gliders in North Dakota? I just met a crop duster from ND who was taking dual in the Grobs at Farabault MN.

MM
 
Hello Matt,
The ND Civil Air Patrol has a 2-33 at 5N8. I joined CAP to be able to get a glider rating. Also ended up becoming a mission pilot. Glad I did both.

So you being a CFI, what do you think of my opinions and advice which I shared with these glider trainees?

I have only flown the 2-33 and L-23. What are you pictured in? Please share your comparisons with these two and others you have flown? I want to try others but am not sure where to go.

Rick
 
Your posts (and photos) have inspired me to take an introductory ride... tentatively scheduled for this Sunday afternoon. I don't know the first thing about gliding (other than what I learned about engine-out procedures during PPL training)... so I'm pretty excited.

He said we'd be going in a Blanik L-23, but he might as well have been speaking Hebrew since I have *no* idea what that is.


Questions (sorry to hijack the post):
1. What should I bring (headset? do they have radios?)
2. I should probably know this, but what does it take to add a glider rating to a PPL?
 
Seeing that I am in the midst of adding on a grider rating I'll take this question.

You won't need a headset. Gliders generally are pretty quiet, and you'll be able to easily hear the radio (if installed) over the built in speaker. Talking with your instructor is also no problem.

The add on minimums are 10 flights, and 3 hours of dual instruction. It has taken me more than that, but it has been a blast so far.

As for the L-23 It is a very common all metal Czech built trainer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LET_L-23

Have fun, and hopefully you'll find some lift
 
mjburian said:
Questions (sorry to hijack the post):
1. What should I bring (headset? do they have radios?)
2. I should probably know this, but what does it take to add a glider rating to a PPL?
Click to expand...

1) No headset needed. Even the 'loud' gliders are quiet enough to hold normal voice level conversations in during flight. Most gliders do carry radios, either the pilot holds a handheld or it is dash mounted.

2) All of the specific requirements are listed in Part 61, in the same section as the Private-ASEL,AMEL, Helicopter etc. requirements. The condensed version for the add on is:

Get Solo'd
Fly 10 solo flights
Checkride Prep
Checkride

No written is required since you have the airplane SEL certificate.

Where are you flying? The L23 is a good trainer. Pretty comfortable with a decent glide ratio, in the high 20's, and powerful airbrakes. Its what I did the bulk of my commercial add on training in down in Marfa, TX.
 
Thanks for the help. Is there such a thing as an "average" soaring flight? What I'm really trying to figure out is (roughly) how many flights would be required to get the 3 hours of instruction.

Basically, I'd like to have a guess-timate as to the number of trips to the airports and the cost (tow, rental, instructor, etc) to add the rating. It's very intriguing to me, but I don't have a ton of extra cash laying around (and whatever I do have will need to be split with powered flight for fun).
 
typical training flights will be around 20 minutes on a 2000 foot tow. pattern tows will be more like 10 minutes. you should be able to arrange with your instructor to spend the afternoon and do many flights, like 5-10 so that you can maximize efficiency. Getting the 3 hrs of instruction will not be an issue, at least that I have ever seen. Soaring flight length depends entirely on the day and the purpose. Usually if im with a beginning student ill limit soaring to an hour, just so we can continue to work on the tow and landings, and so the tow pilot doesnt get bored and leave :)
 
tonycondon said:
and so the tow pilot doesnt get bored and leave :)
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No chance of that last Saturday. That poor guy was in the seat for at least 2 hrs non-stop! And that was only the time I was there. How long was he going before I arrived? Poor guy.. Having to sit there and fly that SuperCub all day. ;) Wish I could help lighten his burden. ha!
 
tonycondon said:
1) No headset needed. Even the 'loud' gliders are quiet enough to hold normal voice level conversations in during flight. Most gliders do carry radios, either the pilot holds a handheld or it is dash mounted.

2) All of the specific requirements are listed in Part 61, in the same section as the Private-ASEL,AMEL, Helicopter etc. requirements. The condensed version for the add on is:

Get Solo'd
Fly 10 solo flights
Checkride Prep
Checkride

No written is required since you have the airplane SEL certificate.

Where are you flying? The L23 is a good trainer. Pretty comfortable with a decent glide ratio, in the high 20's, and powerful airbrakes. Its what I did the bulk of my commercial add on training in down in Marfa, TX.
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If the intro ride goes well (and I like / can afford it), I'll be at Hartford, WI (HXF) with the Wisconsin Soaring Society.

Without knowing anything about my abilities (other than I have proven to a DPE that I'm competent in a C172), could you ballpark the number of trips to the airport it might take? Also, the fee structure is relatively confusing to me... but, like I said, I know nothing about this stuff.
 
Hartford! Thats where Pete (vontresc) flies, so Ill let him answer the questions.
 
Cool Marty, Welcome to our club! We tend to use the L-23 mainly for the intro flights, and rides. You'll probably be making the bulk of your training in the 2-33. while it is a bil less sexy than the blanik, it is a very jonest and nice trainer with somewhat less of an L/D than the blanik. We tow behind a 260hp D model Pawnee, and the tows are reasonable ($20 for the first 1000' $9 each additional 100'). The 2-33 rents for 15/hr.

I'll definately be there on Sunday. With any luck I should fly my Ka-6 for the first time as well :)
 
Here's a stupid question... will getting my glider add-on count as a BFR?
 
t0r0nad0 said:
$9 for each additional 100'? So for a 2000' tow it costs $110?
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i suspect pete meant $9 for each additional 1000 feet. and yes adding the additional category of Glider to your certificate resets the clock on your flight review.
 
t0r0nad0 said:
Here's a stupid question... will getting my glider add-on count as a BFR?
Click to expand...

Yes. My last BFR was bundled in with my tailwheel checkout, and the next will most likely be with the PP-glider add-on.
Of course, it requires the appropriate logbook endorsement, etc.
 
vontresc said:
Cool Marty, Welcome to our club! We tend to use the L-23 mainly for the intro flights, and rides. You'll probably be making the bulk of your training in the 2-33. while it is a bil less sexy than the blanik, it is a very jonest and nice trainer with somewhat less of an L/D than the blanik. We tow behind a 260hp D model Pawnee, and the tows are reasonable ($20 for the first 1000' $9 each additional 100'). The 2-33 rents for 15/hr.

I'll definately be there on Sunday. With any luck I should fly my Ka-6 for the first time as well :)
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I don't want to get anybody in trouble here... but let's just say that the paperwork for me joining the club won't quite be in order by Sunday. I spoke to John Livingston yesterday, and he sounds like a really nice (and knowledgeable) guy.

Also, not that it's a big deal... but the prices John quoted me were a little bit different. He said the tow was $23 and $11 for each additional 1000'.

When I did my PPL training, the first questions I asked were:

1) Roughly how many total lessons before the checkride? (The answer was 36-40... but it only ended up being 34)

2) Roughly how many hours? (The answer was 60-90... it ended up being 58)

3) Roughly how much will it cost? (I was getting a good deal since my dad owns a share in a plane, but the quoted cost was *very* close to what it ended up being)

Is there any way for me get the answers to those questions for adding a glider rating? I understand it's a different animal, but like I said... I either need to budget for it or "steal" from my flying fund to cover it. I'm not going to hold anyone to anything... I'm just looking for a ballpark estimate.
 
rottydaddy said:
Yes. My last BFR was bundled in with my tailwheel checkout, and the next will most likely be with the PP-glider add-on.
Of course, it requires the appropriate logbook endorsement, etc.
Click to expand...

in order to stay with the spirit of picking nits, the glider add on will require no flight review logbook endorsement because it is a checkride for an additional category/class. the tailwheel did require a seperate flight review endorsement because tailwheel endorsement in and of itself does not necessarily meet the requirements of a flight review.

and Marty, Im going to defer to Pete on the number of flights/costs/etc. questions since he has first hand knowledge of the Hartfords operation and is nearly done with his add on.
 
Good point, I forgot we upped the prices (stupid $140/bbl oil)....
 
oh and if you're not careful, your 'fun' flying budget will be transferred from airplanes to gliders. just ask Pete and I :)
 
Re: cost- at first, with the cost of renting or joining a club, plus tow fees, including by-the-foot fees, it may not seem like you're saving much per hr. vs. flying FBO/club powered aircraft, but it's important to remember that once you get to where you're staying aloft longer, the longer you stay up, the cheaper it gets (in terms of the cost of the tow). i get a warm fuzzy feeling just thinking about that; it's a kind of glow in the wallet area. :D

So far, I've logged 1.6 dual over 4 flights from @3000 feet ($10 plus $1/100feet= $40/each); not counting membership & dues, that's $100/hr. That's dual, remember. On the surface, that price doesn't really beat renting a Cessna for a longish dual checkout or BFR, but I've been challenged, surprised, amused, amazed and just plain thrilled more on those 4 hops than I've been since my first 20 hrs of PP dual. More so even than my taildragger checkout time, and that was pretty awesome! Hard to put a price tag on that! and once I start soloing, the better I do, the less I'll pay!! How freakin' cool is that?!

And there can be even more- in this club, for example, I get:

-Free instruction
-Free quad time (slow towing the glider back, but I can do what I want on my way across the field-LOL)
-Possible free Citabria time (with the option to check out in it for tow-pilot duty once I meet the prerequisites)
- A good education in glider ground ops
- A good excuse to hang out very close to the runway
-The company of a good mix of pilots, all of whom are fun to hang out with.

But there are certainly powered-flying scenarios that are similar; I can't say I'd get into gliding if it cost more than powered flight, but it's not just the savings that's lured me into it; it was just time for me, I think... gliding is just very different, with its own kind of beauty and challenges. i always knew i'd try it some day.
 
Exactly.....Excluding the $5,000 I spent on the K-6 I think I've spent a little ofer $1500 on tows and flying so far, and I am pretty much ready to take the check ride. You may be able to do this for a little bit less if you focus in on your training. I got a little sidetracked because soaring is so much more fun than prepping for your checkride :)

anywho talk to John on Sunday, and you'll have a blast.

BTW Marty, where do you live around here? I am in Madison.
 
tonycondon said:
in order to stay with the spirit of picking nits, the glider add on will require no flight review logbook endorsement because it is a checkride for an additional category/class. the tailwheel did require a seperate flight review endorsement because tailwheel endorsement in and of itself does not necessarily meet the requirements of a flight review.

and Marty, Im going to defer to Pete on the number of flights/costs/etc. questions since he has first hand knowledge of the Hartfords operation and is nearly done with his add on.
Click to expand...
So how do you show proof of last BFR? Just indicate the PP-glider endorsement?
 
Can you use gliders year-round in Wisconsin? That might be another consideration for me. Assuming it'll take at least a few months (correct me if I'm wrong)... we could get into the snowy season here in Wisconsin (is there another season?).

Depending on the answer to how much time/money and whether or not I can train in the winter... might it make sense for me to hold off until next spring?

[Either way, I'm going on the intro flight ASAP]
 
vontresc said:
Exactly.....Excluding the $5,000 I spent on the K-6 I think I've spent a little ofer $1500 on tows and flying so far, and I am pretty much ready to take the check ride. You may be able to do this for a little bit less if you focus in on your training. I got a little sidetracked because soaring is so much more fun than prepping for your checkride :)

anywho talk to John on Sunday, and you'll have a blast.

BTW Marty, where do you live around here? I am in Madison.
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I live in Milwaukee, but work in Germantown (about halfway between home and Hartford). John did mention that there was a group of people flying over from Madison on Sunday. Any idea what time you'll be there? I'm on the schedule for 3:30pm, but John mentioned that later in the day things sometimes get "jumbled".

While I'm at the airport on Sunday, I'm hoping to meet up with Steve Krog (John said he'd set up the introduction). Apparently, Steve does tailwheel instruction in a J-3 Cub. I am in *love* with that plane... and want to get my TW endorsement in one. I just thought I'd have to "go somewhere" to do it... turns out, that's not the case.
 
I'll be there for most of the day, and the current wet dual rate on the cubs is $95/hr. Steve and Kandace are great people. You'll have a blast.

IMHO HXF is one of the nicest airports to just hang out at. there are ton's of friendly folks and neat airplanes all around. HXF is what an airport should be like.
 
mjburian said:
Your posts (and photos) have inspired me to take an introductory ride... tentatively scheduled for this Sunday afternoon.
Click to expand...

Marty,

What time are you going to be there? Would you like to get together and go someplace for a $100 burger afterwards? My flying club is going to HXF on Sunday to fly gliders too! :yes:

I don't know the first thing about gliding (other than what I learned about engine-out procedures during PPL training)... so I'm pretty excited.
Click to expand...

This should give you some idea of what to expect - The glider in this video is a Blanik L-13:

http://media.libsyn.com/media/pilotcast/Pilotcast_049_2006.11.05_Kent_Glider.m4v
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Marty,

What time are you going to be there? Would you like to get together and go someplace for a $100 burger afterwards? My flying club is going to HXF on Sunday to fly gliders too! :yes:



This should give you some idea of what to expect - The glider in this video is a Blanik L-13:

http://media.libsyn.com/media/pilotcast/Pilotcast_049_2006.11.05_Kent_Glider.m4v
Click to expand...


My appointment is at 3:30pm, but John said the schedule has a tendency to get a little screwed up later in the day... so it might be a little later. I'm planning on talking to Steve Krog while I'm there regarding getting my tailwheel endorsement in one of his J3 Cubs.

Let's see how tomorrow plays out, but as of right now I would be interested in heading somewhere for dinner. But, I will be driving up there... so I'd have to hitch a ride with you if that's alright.

Let me know what you're thinking. See your PM for my cell number.
 
Hey wisconsin dudes, I might be flying up there from Iowa Sunday. If so I'll think about trying to get over to Hartford. I'll call if I do. Do I understand the above to mean that you all are going to be hanging at Hartford Sunday?>

Matt
 
mjburian said:
My appointment is at 3:30pm, but John said the schedule has a tendency to get a little screwed up later in the day... so it might be a little later. I'm planning on talking to Steve Krog while I'm there regarding getting my tailwheel endorsement in one of his J3 Cubs.

Let's see how tomorrow plays out, but as of right now I would be interested in heading somewhere for dinner. But, I will be driving up there... so I'd have to hitch a ride with you if that's alright.

Let me know what you're thinking. See your PM for my cell number.
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Well, now it's cancelled - High winds. Our "rain" date is next Sunday the 20th. We start flying gliders at 1 PM at HXF. Assuming 1/2 hour each, we'll be done at 3:30. I've got a backup reservation for a 3rd plane which is itself backing up for an Angel Flight so I think chances are pretty good that I can get it, otherwise I may have to head back to MSN.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well, now it's cancelled - High winds. Our "rain" date is next Sunday the 20th. We start flying gliders at 1 PM at HXF. Assuming 1/2 hour each, we'll be done at 3:30. I've got a backup reservation for a 3rd plane which is itself backing up for an Angel Flight so I think chances are pretty good that I can get it, otherwise I may have to head back to MSN.
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Yep... got a voicemail from John earlier letting me know winds would be too high for the ride tomorrow. I may still try to head up there to talk to Steve Krog... but I've left him two messages that have yet to be returned. I'm beginning to wonder if he's on vacation this week.

If you still want to head into the area, let me know. I can meet you at pretty much any airport in the area if you're interested in lunch, but I haven't checked weather to see if winds might be too high for flying too.

The closest airport to home is MWC, but 02C, UES and HXF are all within driving distance of me. Otherwise, if you want to claim MKE for ConUS I could meet you there (it's still an unclaimed airport, right?). It's odd, because I have flown into MKE twice already (during training)... but both times were before I knew about ConUS.
 
mjburian said:
The closest airport to home is MWC, but 02C, UES and HXF are all within driving distance of me. Otherwise, if you want to claim MKE for ConUS I could meet you there (it's still an unclaimed airport, right?). It's odd, because I have flown into MKE twice already (during training)... but both times were before I knew about ConUS.
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I'll promise you that Kent does NOT want to have anything to do with KMKE! He and Signature there do NOT get along!:hairraise:
 
gprellwitz said:
I'll promise you that Kent does NOT want to have anything to do with KMKE! He and Signature there do NOT get along!:hairraise:
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There's only a fee if you "park", right? Wouldn't he rather "stick it to em" by pulling up and leaving the prop spinning while I hop in and we get out of there?

It just seems odd to me that such an accessible airport is unclaimed (at last check)... when some of the places I've seen claimed have been so out of the way. Especially since I (or my dad) could have easily claimed it on the flight *before* my official first lesson.
 
mjburian said:
There's only a fee if you "park", right? Wouldn't he rather "stick it to em" by pulling up and leaving the prop spinning while I hop in and we get out of there?
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Meh... I don't leave the prop spinning when loading/unloading. And, $ignature won't even let you out onto the ramp until I come in and pay my $46 (as of the last time I checked).

It just seems odd to me that such an accessible airport is unclaimed (at last check)... when some of the places I've seen claimed have been so out of the way. Especially since I (or my dad) could have easily claimed it on the flight *before* my official first lesson.
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MKE sucks. It's the only Class C I've ever been told to "remain clear" (They have a big-time ORD complex, it seems), and the ONLY FBO is $ignature, and it's the worst $ignature around from what I can tell. They're milking the lack of competition too - Currently, 100LL is $6.77/gal and Jet-A is $8.69/gal. Sure, they love the jet jocks and the jet jocks (who aren't paying the bills, BTW) love them, but they could give two ****s about your average GA single. I'm usually ignored until I've guessed at where I'm supposed to park, shut down, and tied down. Then, the front desk staff either isn't present or ignores me until I want to leave, at which point I'm yelled at for not registering my airplane when I arrived (um, yeah, there was nobody behind the desk when I arrived) and charged about 1/2 hour's worth of flight time just for showing up.

I'll go to ORD before I go back to MKE.

My comments on Airnav's page for RAC pretty much tell the story: "Landing, Handling, Parking: $Free Really friendly staff, open 24/7: $Free Nice new Honda Odyssey courtesy van: $Free Two good-sized runways and several approaches, including an ILS: $Free Avoiding the god-awful service and outrageous prices at $ignature at MKE: Priceless!"

UES and MWC are also available. I pretty much just pick which airport depending on which is closest. If I'm doing something in the vicinity of MKE, I go to RAC.
 
Geez... I didn't realize it was so bad there. I suppose neither of my two flights involved parking.

Anyway, give me a call if you're still planning on being in the area tomorrow. I'll be around.
 
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