SE IFR practicality

[shenanigans]

Hi everyone, first post here and I'm looking for input from some more experienced pilots. I'm just beginning my IFR training and I'm wondering about how much utility I'll actually get out of the rating.

The planes I'd be flying are your typical GA single trainers (warrior, 172, 182, etc...). They are IFR certified but they aren't equipped for icing and don't have on board weather/radar. I'm curious about how practical it is to fly in IMC with them, especially in when it starts getting colder out.

Second question, I don't anticipate needing to fly IFR often, but I'd like to have the option available. How much time and effort should I expect to put into remaining proficient in instrument procedures so that I'd be able to safely fly in IMC if the need arose?

 

[gprellwitz]

Welcome to PoA!

Like you, I'm in the midwest. IMC during the winter certainly reduces my flying due to potential icing, but doesn't eliminate it. My main planes are 182's. IFR in IMC is certainly possible, and it has allowed me to complete many flights I would otherwise have been unable to complete. It's not a silver bullet, but it's an extremely useful weapon in the arsenal!

As to how much effort to maintain proficiency, that's dependent on your comfort level, and will depend on your overall experience. Why don't you tell us a little more about yourself!

 

[somorris]

SAI:

It is practical and very useful. If you are like me, you may get a little nervous flying the typical FBO trainers in hard IFR because if they have older instruments, they tend to fail at inopportune times. Also, if you have passengers, they have to understand that you are not driving a car and the situation may arise when you have to spend an extra day waiting out the weather. For me, working a regular job to support my flying habit, staying proficient takes a lot of work. Basically, I spend 95% (or more) of my flying time trying to stay proficient so I can use those skills the other (maybe) 5% of the time when I may need them. Then, when I do need them, it may have been awhile since I flew hard IMC and many times I elect to stay on the ground. I would stay after the IFR rating. It is well worth the time and effort. But your concern about real practicality is a good one.

 

[flyersfan31]

If you want to travel, you need the IR. There are lots of situations where you need the rating, even without storms in the area. Plus, it's nice to have the "belt and suspenders" of ATC on long cross-country flights (and by long, even 250-300mi counts).

 

[TMetzinger]

Leaving the profciency aside (it's an important topic, but let's assume you work to stay proficient), it all depends on your missions and geography. Here in the Mid-Atlantic and the Northeast, the instrument rating turns a LOT of no-go days into "go" days except for the thunderstorms in the summer and the icing in the winter. But we get lots of days with low ceilings or visibility without icing or thunderstorms. So it's quite valuable.

Now let's look at other sections of the country:
Midwest - more frequent and severe storms, but even so the instrument rating is useful most of the year.
Northwest - like the Northeast, very useful except in storms or icing.
Southwest - you may have to fly long distances to find a cloud, and when you do find clouds, they're frequently nasty. This doesn't apply to the coastal areas.

I found the rating to be useful even for VFR work - the better understanding of weather and ATC in particular, and the increased discipline of always thinking "what now, what next" while in flight.

 

[Dr. O]

The IFR rating makes the airplane a tool and not just a toy... Toys are fine... Toys are fun... But toys are NOT used to move people around on a fixed schedule...

SE IFR is done all the time by the air taxi folks... And they usually do not have radar and only limited deicing - which is not legal for flight into KNOWN icing conditions.. However, they fly almost everyday - a big departure from us amateurs... Yes I have flown SE IFR and I have run into icing flying the Great Lakes (inevitable)... In those instances, I used my IFR rating to immediately get the airplane back on the ground...

If you think you are going to deliberately fly in icing conditions in anything less than a multiengine turbine aircraft, with boots and heaters, you are dreaming...

Having said these things let me urge you to finish your IFR... It opens the sky to having a family trip when there are low ceilings at your takeoff point and better weather at the destination, or a band of weather you can now fly over with the rating, etc,... Makes a world of difference and you don't need turbine aircraft to have the benefits 98% of the time...

denny-o

 

[DutchessFlier]

Proficiency has two definitions: regulatory and personal. The regulatory proficiency, most every IR pilot here will tell you, is minimum at best. Your personal proficiency will be based on your own limitations and needs, which only you can assess for yourself. I will tell you this, as an IR candidate nearing my end of course, my overall flying skills and proficiencies have improved dramatically over the process. I also learned how much I still need to learn. My goal (YMMV) for the IR was to be able to get into or out of IMC without killing myself, not to purposely fly into IMC if I can avoid it, and to improve the utility of my plane by being able to fly without visual references if necessary, or a particular mission calls for IFR flight due to meteorological conditions (other than convection and icing, of course).

BTW your first few times flying in actual are very very educational experiences... welcome to PoA!

 

[Baron2PG]

The IFR rating makes the airplane a tool and not just a toy... Toys are fine... Toys are fun... But toys are NOT used to move people around on a fixed schedule...

Having said these things let me urge you to finish your IFR... It opens the sky to having a family trip when there are low ceilings at your takeoff point and better weather at the destination, or a band of weather you can now fly over with the rating, etc,... Makes a world of difference and you don't need turbine aircraft to have the benefits 98% of the time...

denny-o

CONCUR - I flew "IFR" in a Grumman Tiger for years, no autopilot, no radar, and crappy radios. Flying in the IFR system even when it is VFR, which is most of the time by the way, makes flying more enjoyable as well. You can relax and not get all uptight about staying out of the puffies or getting stuck on top of a thin layer. Read up on setting "personal minimums". Your personal mins is all that needs to change as you move up into faster well equipped aircraft.

I highly recommend reading John Eckalbar "IFR A Structured Approach". This book improved my flying more then any other I've read. Also, as a min purchase a used Garmin 396 with XM weather. It is an amazingly helpfull device; especially in a less-then-well equipped airplane or when your flying rentals.

 

[TMetzinger]

I've flown FIKI (Flight into known icing) singles, and as long as you clearly define when you will pretend you don't have deicing, they are decent.

In the Mooney, I set an airspeed loss limit. When I lost XX knots in spite of the deicing, I stopped trying to make the destination and treated it like an inadvertent icing encounter in a non-FIKI single - get out of the icing NOW. There was a large cushion below that airspeed number.

I never had to use that plan - I'd report the icing as soon as I got it as a PIREP, and I was generally out of it laterally or vertically before I had any significant loss of airspeed.

On the other hand, I've seen some FIKI singles come in carrying more ice than I'd have been comfortable with, so again it's a personal risk management decision.

 

[nyoung]

Bottom line, is that (safe) travel in any GA plane is all about flexibility.

It is quite possible to fly long VFR xc's in both summer and winter if one can change their departure times by several hours or temporarily landing at an enroute airport waiting for conditions to improve.

IFR will help increase the dispatch rate, and the confidence that a given flight can be completed at the destination (vs having to land before reaching the destination).

I have a fair amount of IFR/IMC in a Cherokee 180, ranging from popping through thin layers to hours long XCs in the clouds with approaches to minimums. Having an IFR ticket plus XM weather in the plane add to the dispatch reliability, but more importantly (to me), increase my comfort level that the flight will be completed successfully and according to plan.

There will always be days (t-storms, icing, and widespread stalled frontal based fog) where single engine GA just cannot get it done, but it is pretty infrequent.

I've flown all over the Eastern US, and am based in Chicago. In my experience, I would say that a VFR dispatch rate is probably 85%. IFR brings that to 95%. That's pretty good. A single cancellation in 20 flights isn't much worse than the airlines.

That said, even with IFR you can get stuck sometimes. A few times, I have left my plane somewhere and flown home commercial. I've also had a few overnight layovers waiting for weather to improve. IFR + patience + flexibility = a great way to travel.

 

[AdamZ]

If you want to travel, you need the IR. There are lots of situations where you need the rating, even without storms in the area. Plus, it's nice to have the "belt and suspenders" of ATC on long cross-country flights (and by long, even 250-300mi counts).

Amen brother Andrew Amen!

 

[Baron2PG]

Oh by the way, the training and effort required to obtain the IFR ticket will make you a better pilot.

 

[shenanigans]

Thanks everyone for the input. I was always planning to finish the instrument rating, I just wanted to get a sense of what I could reasonably expect to accomplish with it. My post was somewhat prompted by numerous storms over the last few weeks. Lately, the weather has been either heavy thunderstorms or completely clear, with almost nothing in between.

 

[Armcorp]

Lots of good posts . The mission is the key. Flying for fun......not that big of deal
Flying for business , I would say absolutely yes.
Suggest getting some IFR training with a CFI regardless

 

[Ted]

The instrument rating makes a lot of iffy VFR trips very easy. I've just flown from PA to FL to Mexico to Louisiana to Colorado back to Louisiana back to Mexico and am now in Florida, tomorrow going up to New York. So far, I've had very little actual, despite all the weather that's been around. Could it have been done VFR? Mostly, yes. However the instrument rating makes the whole thing easier. That is the real tool.

You won't be able to fly a 182 comfortably on days when I can hop in the Aztec and not worry about it. Days with lots of storms or ice come to mind. However for most people, you can get enough use out of a non de-iced, non-radar single on IFR and get where you're going most of the time without problems. I flew the Archer and the Mooney (neither de-iced or radar) single engine IFR without problems, and rarely canceled a trip with them.

 

[COFlyBoy]

We do fairly long family trips (1000-2000nm round trip) all VFR. We have had to be very flexible in the face of IFR conditions. I want the IR to get me over thin layers, or through marginal visibilities, not so much to fly through rain or ice.

We got stuck in Nebraska for an extra 4 hours waiting for the thin overcast at 1300 AGL to breakup enough to feel comfortable departing VFR.

We got stuck in Port Aransas Texas for 2 days because all of central Texas was IMC, but there were no storms. Would have been an easy IFR trip.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The best advice of flying any aircraft IFR is knowing your aircraft's limitations as well as your own limitations and never wavering from either one.

 

[timwinters]

If you want to travel, you need the IR. There are lots of situations where you need the rating, even without storms in the area. Plus, it's nice to have the "belt and suspenders" of ATC on long cross-country flights (and by long, even 250-300mi counts).

Amen brother Andrew Amen!

Double Amen and as it was today. Took off in 400 OVC, tops were at 2000'. Cruised at 7k. Vectored around T-storms (thank you data link weather). Spent only 15 minutes (max) in actual IMC but would have never completed the trip without an instrument ticket.

On many days, my instrument rating simply allows me to fly high, smooth, cool and comforable VFR instead of low, bumpy, hot and unconfortable VFR...today was one of those days.

 

[gprellwitz]

On many days, my instrument rating simply allows me to fly high, smooth, cool and comforable VFR instead of low, bumpy, hot and unconfortable VFR...today was one of those days.

Leslie and I both said, on reading this, "that's about it!"

 

[poadeleted20]

The best advice of flying any aircraft IFR is knowing your aircraft's limitations as well as your own limitations and never wavering from either one.

Thank you, Inspector Callahan. But just as true in this context as it was about police work in that one. Only bone I'd pick with that statement is I wouldn't limit it to IFR.

 

[dmccormack]

Here's a few items I'd add as required for me, myself, and I for single pilot IFR ops in IMC for real XC flying:

• Handheld GPS with approaches. Now that I've lost electric TWICE in IMC this is non-negotiable for me. Sure, we practice various modes, but unless you have the time to be very proficient in these modes, the risk is too high.
• Autopilot. Unless I have a current and proficient instrument pilot flying next to me, there is simply too much to do to do everything well without the assistance an AP provides. Some airplanes are more stable than others when trimmed for cruise, but the times you need an AP are the times you've been given a routing change, it's bumpy, raining, and the squelch won't work.

Backup vacuum is nice, and probably should be required, but I think the handheld with approaches will provide the required redundancy for about 1/4 the price.

FIKI or even get-outta-ice equipment would be nice, but I simply avoid flying in ice.

 

[Ted]

The best advice of flying any aircraft IFR is knowing your aircraft's limitations as well as your own limitations and never wavering from either one.

Well said.

 

[dmccormack]

The best advice of flying any aircraft IFR is knowing your aircraft's limitations as well as your own limitations and never wavering from either one.

Problem is -- a pilot who truly *knows* his/her limitations is likely good enough to fly to the airplane's limits.

The rest of us have edges we nibble at, some cautiously, some recklessly.

 

[Ted]

Problem is -- a pilot who truly *knows* his/her limitations is likely good enough to fly to the airplane's limits.

The rest of us have edges we nibble at, some cautiously, some recklessly.

That doesn't make the advice any less valid. It's up to the pilot to be able to determine those limits.

Most of the pilots I come across actually seem to, if anything, have a conservative view of what they're actually capable of. Although most of the pilots I come across are PoA folk.

 

[poadeleted20]

Problem is -- a pilot who truly *knows* his/her limitations is likely good enough to fly to the airplane's limits.

I don't agree. I've known plenty of pilots whose personal capabilities are far less than their aircraft's, and they stay within their own limits. This is especially true with nonprofessional pilots flying IFR only rarely and usually single-pilot.

 

[dmccormack]

That doesn't make the advice any less valid. It's up to the pilot to be able to determine those limits.

Most of the pilots I come across actually seem to, if anything, have a conservative view of what they're actually capable of. Although most of the pilots I come across are PoA folk.

Well, I think the advice includes assumptions that even poor pilots would assent to -- "Yep, that's right! Don't exceed personal limits! Of course mine are way out there..."

Reminds me of this phenomenon: The Anosognosic’s Dilemma: Something’s Wrong but You’ll Never Know What It Is

I'd assume PoA and other "active" pilots are not struck with this disability, but you never know...

 

[Ted]

I'd assume PoA and other "active" pilots are not struck with this disability, but you never know...

Most of the pilots I've come across have an accurate or conservative view of their abilities, and don't go off flying into stuff they aren't capable of. Of course there are people who push the limits recklessly, just like they do with cars and motorcycles. However on the whole, the people I've come across are very aware of their abilities and don't want to die.

 

[flyersfan31]

When things get too ugly, I ask myself "Is it worth it?"

I've never answered "Yes."

 

[mswmsw]

....... I'm just beginning my IFR training and I'm wondering about how much utility I'll actually get out of the rating........flying are your typical GA single trainers ..... I'm curious about how practical it is to fly in IMC with them, especially in when it starts getting colder out.......

Flying light single engine aircraft in IMC is reasonably practical and commonplace for many pilots. BUT, you gotta know your limitations! In this regard, you would probably find it very helpful/beneficial if, during training for your IFR ticket, you have a CFII who has a fair amount of "light airplane weather flying" background and experience, and is comfortable taking you into the wet and (slightly) wild clouds. If your CFI has no problem routinely taking you up in a variety of "actual IFR" conditions (rather than just doing "hood work" with you in clear skies) then you will get a much better understanding of the weather capabilities and limitations of these types of aircraft, and you will gain valuable first hand knowledge and experience in judging what you might encounter while in the wet insides of these clouds.

 

[Ghery]

Oh by the way, the training and effort required to obtain the IFR ticket will make you a better pilot.

Indeed. I don't have my IR yet, but a coupld of weeks ago I was up with a CFI I hadn't flown with before getting re-signed off to fly the club's Arrow and she asked if I had my Commercial. Nope, just trying to nail my numbers like I've been taught so far working on the IR. The training really does help.

Now, to finish studying for the written while I have nothing else to do the next couple of weeks in Hawaii and finish this thing once and for all.