Screwed by Hertz

AcroBoy

AcroBoy

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Jim N
Went to Rapid City, SD for the third time on a family vacation and rented a car from the local Hertz dealer. Returned car no problem, but a week later got a letter from Purco saying I owed them $1,000 for damages! I did not hit anything, but they sent photos of some damage inside a wheel well. They wanted the repair costs, plus four days rental fees for loss of use of the car, plus a $75 handling fee.

I showed the photos to a local body shop, who said it would be a half day job. Learned that Purco and the local agency split any profits beyond the actual costs.

Turns out this is a scam, but legal under the rental contract. Apparently Alamo does the same thing, and the usual mark is someone out of state.

They then send threatening letters about damaging your credit score or further legal action.

I will never rent from Hertz or Alamo again, and filed a BBB complaint. Any other recourse? Obviously, retaining a lawyer would cost more than the claim itself, which is the beauty of their scam.

Any other help?
 
I always use my American Express card and let their premium rental insurance cover it. For a $25 fee (refunded if no claim is made), I'm worry free. And I have used it and KNOW it saved me a pocket full. The Collision Damage Waiver insurance is a joke. $15 a day for nothing. The AMEX premium rental allows you to wave it and know you're still covered.
I hate to say it but even with picture proof, you've got their word against yours.
 
I discussed with my insurance company, who said it was easier for them to pay than dispute, but my rates night go up. They suggested paying out of pocket.

If in fact I had damaged the car, then no problem, but the whole thing is a money making scam for Hertz. How does the Amex card protect me- I only have MC.
 
You may have coverage through the card-issuer for the MC as well - ask.

Catch is, all such card-issuer coverage rides on top of your own liability insurance, so if (*if*) your own insurance has coverage, it pays first, with the credit card insurance filling in the gap.

This should not necessarily be a rating item either, affecting future cost of insurance. Discuss with an adjuster, in detail.
 
While Alamo is about the worst at this game, all of the others do it too. They try and "getcha" if you don't take their exhorbinant "damage waiver" for about $30/day (pure profit for them).

The way to fight it is to insist on a walk-around inspection before you take the car out with any items noted. Same walk-around with a rep when you return the car. Some places (especially the "local editions") have damage sheets they fill out/sign when renting/returning cars.

Without that, you're at their mercy. It's not usually a big issue at large airport locations with lots of volume, though I did have a rather heated "discussion" with a manager at Gatwick Airport one time - I was successful based on the check-out damage form.
 
You really should do the full check-out/check-in routine. Once the rental company says "no damage" on the return, you're good.

I'd still see if an attorney would cost less than paying the claim.
 
Just don't pay it. I highly doubt that they would sue you since they don't have a case.

It's like those EZPlate "don't pay in cash at the toll plaza" services that Hertz, Avis, and others offer. They routinely try to overcharge people. Just don't pay and after about a year of sending invoices they go away.

-Felix
 
I was thinking about just telling them to F off, but they probably would report this to a credit bureau. It's clearly a scam, but they claim that when signing the contract I agreed to covet any damages and associated costs. It gives them the right to claim anything they want, without any recourse for the renter. I doubt there was any damage at all.

Next time I will insist on a review with a rep, and get a signed note. Probably will also get photos of the car, with rep in photos. Still a scam.
 
Can't begin to convey the feeling of relief when some a**hole tries to play the credit damage card, or the satisfaction of blistering the sumbitch afterwards about where he can put his report to whichever f^&king credit bureau he wants to use. For better or worse, many members of the generation into which I was born aren't real big on this "political correctness" bullshlt.
 
First off most major CC companies do provide some insurance for this kind of stuff. Amex, MC etc. Check with them.

Second I ALWAYS do a through 'preflight' of any rental car and mark off even the smallest of dings on the sign out sheet. I'm not sure however if you can get a sign off when you return the car often there are tons of cars being returned at once a long line at the check out and one guy in the lot. Folks like Bill or Scott who travel more than than they are home can give better advice on this.

Third, Not sure how they can ding your credit report, its not a debt its a claim. But if they do then write to them telling them that you will be happy to sue them under the Federal Fair Credit Reporting Act where you live not where they are, I'd copy their counsel and I'd bet it just goes away.

And I really don't see you getting counsel for less than the 1K.
 
AdamZ said:
First off most major CC companies do provide some insurance for this kind of stuff. Amex, MC etc. Check with them.

Second I ALWAYS do a through 'preflight' of any rental car and mark off even the smallest of dings on the sign out sheet. I'm not sure however if you can get a sign off when you return the car often there are tons of cars being returned at once a long line at the check out and one guy in the lot. Folks like Bill or Scott who travel more than than they are home can give better advice on this.

Third, Not sure how they can ding your credit report, its not a debt its a claim. But if they do then write to them telling them that you will be happy to sue them under the Federal Fair Credit Reporting Act where you live not where they are, I'd copy their counsel and I'd bet it just goes away.

And I really don't see you getting counsel for less than the 1K.
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What Adam said!

I do a walk around my rental cars. But I also have 'status' at Avis so they tend to upgrade me and also since I am renting on a corporate deal they do not mess with me.
 
We did a preflight of the vehicle, but not with a rep upon return. Doubt the damage they claimed was my responsibility, but they also wanted four days for car out of service, plus 100 for "handling".

They had a lawsuit that went to appeal in Colorado, and the judgment was in their favor. (The job itself would be a half day in my case, according to the local body shop I showed the photos.)

The decision also revealed that Purco and Hertz split any profits beyond the cost of the repairs, so it is in their interest to make claims, even when bogus. The appeals court reversed the decision of the lower court regarding the validity of "lost days revenue". It was not so much the number of days lost, as the fact that they could charge for such time.

An online search of Purco shows many similar episodes, since they also cover Alamo and Hertz.

Anyone know if Avis or other companies are any better (or worse)?

Will be contacting SD state as well as BBB (already a number of complaints there as well).

To the attorneys out there, Purco kept saying "you should have read the contract". Does this also imply that by my signing, they can do whatever they want in this regard (charging outrageous prices, padding the actual time out of service, or even falsifying damages)?
 
AcroBoy said:
...

To the attorneys out there, Purco kept saying "you should have read the contract". Does this also imply that by my signing, they can do whatever they want in this regard (charging outrageous prices, padding the actual time out of service, or even falsifying damages)?
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Absolutely not. With every contract involving "discretion," there's a duty of good faith.

On top of that, what you're talking is fraud, plain and simple - and there's no contract on the face of the earth that can give another party permission to commit a fraud on you.
 
Filed a complaint with the SD AG office online, as well as the BBB. A call from Purco this week said they would accept two days (compared to the initial four days out of service), and $75 service fee. My wife said we would pay for the repairs and half a day. Their response was "this is not Let's Make a Deal". My wife responded by saying, we did not damage the car at all, so do what you need to do, as we also plan to do" Next day the same rep calls back and says they would accept the repair charges, one day of lost rental, and 25.00 service charge.

I'm thinking of just sending a certified check for the repairs and half a day lost use of the car, which would be reasonable had I actually done the damage. On the other hand, I do not think I did anything to the car at all, and their whole claim is fraudulent. Hopefully this would make them go away, although with around an extra $600.

Any thoughts on this?
 
Jim N, you learned the hard way as did I. Take pics before and after. Guess how I know?
 
It is really annoying when a global company like Hertz can openly commit these deceptive, if not fraudulent, activities, and maintain a customer base. Perhaps some local or national media attention to this would put some pressure on them.

In a similar vein, this week I was contacted by an attorney who had previously consulted me for an expert opinion, asking for more time in a telephone conversation regarding further information. I told him our hourly fee for telephone consultations, and he said fine, the check was already mailed.

The day before the telephone conference, the check had not arrived, so I had my secretary call him to postpone the call.

He became really ****ed, got rude, and said he had already paid enough. The check of course never arrived even three days later, so he obviously had no intent of ever sending it in the first place. If he had approached me first, I probably would have answered his questions gratis, but now that he has said he paid and then reneged, the fee for the call has just gone up 50%, and the check has to clear first. My fee as an expert has also increased for him as well.

How can people openly try to screw other individuals, and then have the balls to try to make them feel guilty about it? The American people must really be gullible to allow these practices to continue.
 
ScottM said:
What Adam said!

I do a walk around my rental cars. But I also have 'status' at Avis so they tend to upgrade me and also since I am renting on a corporate deal they do not mess with me.
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Likewise with National.

I've had status with Avis and Hertz, and they were fairly good, but I had standing requirement that said "No Hertz in San Diego, and no Avis in LA". Hertz in SD tried to stiff me for a quarter tank of gas even though I had a receipt for a fillup 5 minutes before returning - "go talk to someone inside" when the line was out the door.

Sticking you for gas is another big scam - Avis had something for a while that if you didn't have an actual receipt for gas when you brought the car back they charged you for gas based on the number of miles driven. I got burned on that in Portland, Maine after filling the tank bue being unable to get a receipt from either machine or attendant.

With National, our corporate deal includes the LDW, so your situation would be a non-issue.

You also have to be careful about whether the location you dealt with is a franchise location or corporate location. If it's franchise, there tends to be more of this kind of nonsense. Corporate gets more scrutiny from the state's legal offices.

If I'm not mistaken, Alamo is owned by the same parent company as National and Enterprise. Avis and Budget, IIRC, are co-owned. Hertz is Hertz.

And folks wonder why travel is such a pain these days.
 
They do it because they think they can get away with it. When some jerk responds that "it's against our policy" I have learned to respond that their policy is in direct conflict with my policy of being screwed like a tied goat, so those two will just have to cancel each other out and we'll have to find another way to proceed.

AcroBoy said:
It is really annoying when a global company like Hertz can openly commit these deceptive, if not fraudulent, activities, and maintain a customer base. Perhaps some local or national media attention to this would put some pressure on them.

In a similar vein, this week I was contacted by an attorney who had previously consulted me for an expert opinion, asking for more time in a telephone conversation regarding further information. I told him our hourly fee for telephone consultations, and he said fine, the check was already mailed.

The day before the telephone conference, the check had not arrived, so I had my secretary call him to postpone the call.

He became really ****ed, got rude, and said he had already paid enough. The check of course never arrived even three days later, so he obviously had no intent of ever sending it in the first place. If he had approached me first, I probably would have answered his questions gratis, but now that he has said he paid and then reneged, the fee for the call has just gone up 50%, and the check has to clear first. My fee as an expert has also increased for him as well.

How can people openly try to screw other individuals, and then have the balls to try to make them feel guilty about it? The American people must really be gullible to allow these practices to continue.
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Some of these rental companies are independently owned, I wonder if this was a "corporate" place that is charging you or an independent place. You may have a chance with calling Hertz corporate and explaining your situation. I'm a Hertz Gold member and I've never had any problems with anything like this, but I always rent with my corporate card and that probably makes a difference.
 
AcroBoy said:
It is really annoying when a global company like Hertz can openly commit these deceptive, if not fraudulent, activities, and maintain a customer base. Perhaps some local or national media attention to this would put some pressure on them.
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Sounds like it's time for a class action suit.
 
Palmpilot said:
Sounds like it's time for a class action suit.
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I'd like to agree with you, but I think that, if the suit were won, the members of the class would each get a voucher good for $5/day off their next rental that must be used within 60 days while the attorneys get 60% of the winnings in cash.

EDIT: Or at least it seems that way in the suits that make the newspapers.
 
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I got a credit like that at Best Buy, I think, for a few bucks for something I didn't need and wouldn't ever buy. Whoopee!

Cap'n Jack said:
I'd like to agree with you, but I think that, if the suit were won, the members of the class would each get a voucher good for $5/day off their next rental that must be used within 60 days while the attorneys get 60% of the winnings in cash.

EDIT: Or at least it seems that way in the suits that make the newspapers.
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Since Hertz is a nationwide chain, could you not take this to your local small claims court? The cost to do that is about 35-40 dollars and a few hours of your time.

If you have a letter from Hertz indicating that they could damage your credit rating or any other subtle threat to do you harm, I think you would have a valid case for taking them to court.

I believe you could name the CEO or the chairman of Hertz in your complaint.

Somehow, I think when a judge hears your side of it, along with pointing out that few people read all the fine print of a common contract with a well known trusted business, the inclination would be to favor you.

I'm just guessing all this. Also I have not read every reply to this thread, so it may already have been suggested.

John
 
Jim, yes you do have to read the contract but no they can just charge you for any thing at all and certainly not for damage that has not occured! The problem with this stuff is that the contract will say that juridiction for any claims is in east bumble fart Wyoming. Making it cost prohibitive for you to fly there hire an attorney and fight the suit. If they sued you on your home turf that is an easy win for you but most folks don't know how to go about it. It really is an unethical use of the contract b ay the company IMHO. The attorney has no clue what happend they only get a claim from the company. I would venture a guess that the outlets at major airports probably don't pull this BS but thats just a guess.

Further the problem with these suits is that even though they are BS you MUST defend them or suffer a judgment by default. It really is extortion by the company IMHO. I hate to say it but if they bring the fight to the mud then you have to get dirty. A suit in your local small claims court against them for what ever your states consumer protection law allows may be the fire that you need to fight the fire. Just as it is not worth your while to travel to east bumble fart for their suit its not worth their time to travel to you. Remember their attorney in their lawsuit against you may be getting paid on a contingency. If you sue they they have to pay them hourly. Keep in mind there are some timing requirments to make sure your suit was sustainable and an attorney for a few bucks can advise you on that. Also mind you I would NEVER suggest that you file a friviolus suit but only one that is supportable under your states consumer protection statue or something similar.

As for the attorney that tried to screw you for free advice. I'm really sorry that happened to you. I've had clients do that to me on many occasion. Regardless of profession there will always be jerks in this world.

BTW did I understand that judgement was infact entered against you in Colorado? If so that is a different ball of wax.
 
the contract will say that juridiction for any claims is in east bumble fart Wyoming.
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Get familiar with their contracts and when 'flipping through it' at the counter, strike the part that says they decide the venue.
(think that has a chance?)

When taking pics, how do you prove when the pic was taken?
Perhaps a vid, going inside to view the odometer?
 
Palmpilot said:
Sounds like it's time for a class action suit.
Click to expand...

Cap'n Jack said:
I'd like to agree with you, but I think that, if the suit were won, the members of the class would each get a voucher good for $5/day off their next rental that must be used within 60 days while the attorneys get 60% of the winnings in cash.

EDIT: Or at least it seems that way in the suits that make the newspapers.
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Or they have mandatory binding arbitration clause in the massive rental contract we never read. They choose the arbitrator.
 
For what it's worth, I've never had this problem, and rented from Hertz probably 10 or 15 times in the past year. Of course, I'm on the corporate gig, so they don't mess with me.

I would fight it. If you didn't do it, you didn't do it.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
When taking pics, how do you prove when the pic was taken?
Perhaps a vid, going inside to view the odometer?
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include the front page of that day's newspaper in the shot - that shows that the photo could not have been taken prior to the publication of that day's paper.
 
The judgment was not entered against me- someone else brought suit against Purcom, arguing against their ability to charge for loss of use of the vehicle. The lower court ruled in favor of the plaintiff, which was overturned on appeal. In reading this I learned that Purco and Hertz shared any profits recovered after repair of the vehicle. In other words, Hertz makes these claims to generate an income above and beyond the actual rental of the car.

In the judgment, Hertz, reasonably, was entitled to loss of rental income during the time the vehicle was not available for rental, which I understand was the gist of the case.

My points are that I am not sure that I did in fact damage the vehicle, and I think their claim is fraudulent. I recognize that I can not disprove this in any way.

I however should not be paying for four days lost rental when it was a half day to repair. Likewise, I do not think it cost them $75 administrative fees to process a claim. Perhaps it might have taken some minimum wage guy a couple of hours to take the car to the shop, wait, and fill out the forms. They argued that it is in the contract to pay for all of the above, but their claim is excessive.

Taking them to small claims court in Wisconsin probably won't get me much (time off from work, etc), and the car was rented in South Dakota, while Purco is in Utah- so what court has jurisdiction?

I was thinking of sending a check for just the repairs plus half a day's rental. Then, if they cash the check would this be a presumption that they have accepted my counteroffer and be done with it? Or, would it be cost effective on their part to continue pestering me, filling out forms, etc, for a few hundred dollars? (essentially playing the same game on them as they have done to me?)
 
Cap'n Jack said:
True- I've seen the arbitration clause in contracts.
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Pretty much everything has them these days.

As to "choice-of-forum" clauses (the ones saying "we agree to try this in East Bumbleep"), the *general* rule is that the place chosen has to have some kind of reasonable relation to the to the parties or to the subject-matter.
 
Jim, I just skimmed over the case you're talking about.

I don't want to post my legal opinions in the open, but if you're interested feel free to shoot me a PM. I'll just cut an paste you what I've already typed out and then deleted. :)

PS - I won't bill. :rofl:
 
Thanks for posting. I can see how this could happen, but would be real surprised if they want repeat business. I just turned in a car at the AP; they looked at it and gave me a receipt with no damage. I've rented at FBOs where I left right after turning in the car. I'm a Hertz Gold Card member--don't know if that would matter.

Anyway, it's a real problem for you. Other than complaint letters and JP court action, you're at a real disadvantage. I'd also post this on some of the major travel sites like tripadvisor.com

Best,

Dave
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Pretty much everything has them these days.

As to "choice-of-forum" clauses (the ones saying "we agree to try this in East Bumbleep"), the *general* rule is that the place chosen has to have some kind of reasonable relation to the to the parties or to the subject-matter.
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Yeah but David the problem is if they sue in east bumble fart Jim still has to make an appearance there to challange jurisdiction. It utter BS.
 
Depending on when and what type of judgement ie Default or Summary he may still be able to petition the court for a new trial and if granted ask for a change of Venue based on diversity of citizenship and get it into Federal Court.


Kent G
 
OK- I can obviously afford to fly and maintain two planes, so the money really isn't the issue. It's more about being ripped off, openly, and somehow justifying it by saying that I signed the contract and this justifies their fraudulent practices. (which no one could possibly understand unless they had a law degree).

I can't mention the number of times I have had cocktail party consults, and now have also become the de facto drop zone doc for our local sky divers who pack my chutes, with all of the care and advice for free. It is great to be able to help people who otherwise could not afford care, and they know they will get my best efforts even though they might not have the financial resources. I have treated presidents of colleges, prominent attorneys, CEO's of major corporations, and some of the poorest inner city people, all with the same respect and efforts in getting them a good result. I have had the privilege of meeting some of the most wonderful and interesting people in the world through these experiences.

Likewise, I spend two to three months a year for the Air Force in the ANG, and have gone around the world to some pretty austere and tough conditions. Even though it represents a ton of lost income, I would never trade the experiences or contribution to our country.

So, it just really burns me when someone or a big corporation takes advantage of me or others in such a dishonest fashion.

It is just wrong.
 
AcroBoy said:
How can people openly try to screw other individuals, and then have the balls to try to make them feel guilty about it?
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As a business owner, I can tell you that this attitude is becoming more common, and it's very sad.

I know the overall message of this thread is "big business Hertz sucks" -- but I'm here to tell ya that we see the same sort of crap from customers more and more. The attitude is "I'm gonna take as much of everything as I possibly can" -- regardless of what's fair or right -- and it occasionally extends to outright theft and fraud.

I think that businesses (like Hertz) are taking a harder line on damages (and other practices) precisely because of the fact that more and more customers are willing and able to rip them off at a moment's notice, and without a second thought.

I don't want to imply that the O.P. harmed Hertz in any way, but businesses don't go to the extreme measures described in this thread unprovoked. IMHO they are responding to a national "screw you" trend that extends well beyond rental cars, and the O.P. is merely caught up in the backlash.
 
If I was naive or gullible, so be it. Look at the victims of Enron, Lehman Brothers, or Bernie Madoff, all had it much worse than I. I trusted Hertz and got screwed. I will never rent from them again.

We see this in medicine every day - instead of trying to establish positive and cooperative relationships between people and institutions, we spend an inordinate amount of time doing things to avoid getting screwed.

I do not make a distinction between a local franchise or a national branch- it still said Hertz at the counter. It is the Hertz reputation that gets damaged by these practices.
 
AcroBoy said:
I discussed with my insurance company, who said it was easier for them to pay than dispute, but my rates night go up. They suggested paying out of pocket.

If in fact I had damaged the car, then no problem, but the whole thing is a money making scam for Hertz. How does the Amex card protect me- I only have MC.
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Hertz does not do this, a franchisee might. IIRC Rapid City is all franchisee. I would complain to Hertz corporate, the problem will probably go away. They have to verify damages in front of you as you check in. If they don't find them then, they can't prove it was you. That's why you always take a moment to do the walk around with them at pick up and drop off. Dispute any charges they put on your card. The quantity is low enough that they will have to go to small claims court, they will lose. At that point you sue them and Hertz corporate for costs, hassle and punitive damages for trying to perpetrate a fraud. You ought to be able to find a lawyer to take that on contingency.
 
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