Scope of annual

[flyingcheesehead]

We just had our 182 in for annual, and after taking it on a long cross-country flight, I'm not convinced everything was actually inspected, or it was haphazardly put back together.

I guess what I'm wondering is, should the following things have been checked and operational following the annual?

1) Landing light inop. This was inop before and after the annual. Filament on the bulb appears to be intact.

2) Nav2 head appears to be disconnected. I tuned and successfully identified several navaids, but the needle stayed in the middle and the flag stayed on. Also, the light in this nav head was inop as well. Is the whole thing simply disconnected? (Radio is a MAC 1700 King rebuild, FWIW.)

3) Lights for engine instruments are inop.

4) Lots of noise coming from the copilot side on the intercom. Lots of noise on the sidetone when transmitting on Com2. (Related to #2 maybe?)

I know the A&P/IA is probably more concerned with strictly airworthiness-type issues, but shouldn't they notice something like a landing light (which was squawked); and wouldn't you think they'd be able to re-connect the panel properly? It really makes me wonder about the quality of the entire job.

 

[Henning]

We just had our 182 in for annual, and after taking it on a long cross-country flight, I'm not convinced everything was actually inspected, or it was haphazardly put back together.

I guess what I'm wondering is, should the following things have been checked and operational following the annual?

1) Landing light inop. This was inop before and after the annual. Filament on the bulb appears to be intact.

2) Nav2 head appears to be disconnected. I tuned and successfully identified several navaids, but the needle stayed in the middle and the flag stayed on. Also, the light in this nav head was inop as well. Is the whole thing simply disconnected? (Radio is a MAC 1700 King rebuild, FWIW.)

3) Lights for engine instruments are inop.

4) Lots of noise coming from the copilot side on the intercom. Lots of noise on the sidetone when transmitting on Com2. (Related to #2 maybe?)

I know the A&P/IA is probably more concerned with strictly airworthiness-type issues, but shouldn't they notice something like a landing light (which was squawked); and wouldn't you think they'd be able to re-connect the panel properly? It really makes me wonder about the quality of the entire job.

It kinda depends who the owner is.
1) Should have been caught.
2) Avionics aren't typically part of an annual unless squawked then sent out to radio shop.
3) Tough to catch panel lights unless squawked.
4) Typically a radio shop issue.

?? How did panel disconnection relate to the annual? Did he disconnect it? How did it become his problem?

 

[gismo]

What Henning said. Technically there shoudn't be any unresolved squawks if the plane is declared airworthy, but for many things (especially avionics) the owner is expected to list the problems. And some things like noisy audio would probably be considered acceptable even if they were discovered during the inspection.

Of course any avionics issues that were caused by work done on the plane during the inspection/repair should have been caught and addressed although I've seen A&P's that were afraid to touch any radios they didn't have to.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Kent:

Long, long, ago, when I was a young man, I used to bring the plane in for annual and fly it right afterwards fully confident in the mechanical abilities of the folks working on the plane. Over many, many years, after much the same things you are pointing out, I've changed my approach to a post annual thorough pre-flight including avionics. Post annual test flight around the airport while the mechanic is still available. Very seldom have I left without the mechanic fixing something I've discovered; no matter who did the work.
Now, I provided a written squawk list; before I go get the plane, I review it with the mechanic--many times, they've overlooked something.

I've found open access panels with tools in them and many other conditions that could have lead to a mishap.

Once the folks know how you look at things, they may adjust their approach, but after any major inspection or work is done on my plane, I fully expect to discover discrepencies.

Best,

Dave

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Post-annual or post-mx defects:

1. Some are directly mechanic-induced, (like the large nose up trim despite indicator at '0' that was a ; or the missing nosewheel cotter from the last phase check). Along this line, some mechanics are better than others, but none are perfect.
2. Some things are just going to quit/break on their schedule and it coincidentally happens the month or 10 hours post-wrenching.

3. I feel great empathy for the mechanic who is in the position of working on stuff that is 20+ yrs old. The very act of touching, or moving a component/wire/hose can end its life on some of these things! Many times I have seen owners trying to get the last possible hour of life out of things, and then when the mechanic has to work around it, it turns to powder when he brushes against it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

?? How did panel disconnection relate to the annual? Did he disconnect it? How did it become his problem?

I took the last flight before the annual as well as the first and third flights afterwards. Actually, the last one before the annual was aborted due to leaky brakes.

I guess I just hadn't noticed the Nav2 problems before the annual and wondered if the panel wasn't opened up for something and put back together haphazardly.

I haven't received the bill for the annual yet, and I haven't been able to look at the logs yet either. That should reveal a lot. I expect things will make more sense once I have all the information; if not I will be talking with our mx officer and the chief of mx at the FBO.

Thanks for all the good advice from everyone!

 

[trombair]

this is exactly why i do my own work (under the direct supervision of a licensed mechanic, of course).

the guys & gals who do aircraft maintainence are between a rock and a hard place. they are tasked with maintaining complex, ticklish machinery that is often older than they are and must do it while keeping a sharp eye on the timeclock. IOW, there is only so much they can reasonably charge for a particular job without incurring the wrath of some owners.

OTOH, my a/c is a hobby , not a business and my time is basically for free. if it takes me 2 weeks or 2 months to go thru the squawk sheet and do the repairs, it's no big deal. plus i know my a/c intimately, which i believe makes the whole airborne situation safer . i also find it very satisfying to maintain my airplane to a higher standard than the "working standard" most shops must adopt to stay in business.

just my $.02 worth.

blue skies,

 

[Stache]

In my book I wrote about inspections I suggest the below items be check before the annual inspection is started to know what you are looking at as a base line.

The following items are checked and recorded during taxi and run up:

1. Ignition switch safety check
2. Com/transceiver check
3. Clock/timer/chronometer
4. Hour meter operation
5. Outside air temp
6. Atis identifier/barometric setting
7. Altimeter indicated altitude compared with field elevation
8. Brakes parking brakes
9. Ground steering
10. Wheel balance
11. Oil pressure idle cruise
12. Oil temperature
13. Cylinder head temperature(s)
14. Fuel pressure/flow, idle/cruise
15. Primary alternator/generator (DC & AC)
16. Standby/#2 alternator/generator (DC & AC)
17. Primary/standby voltage regulator
18. Magneto operation/drops
19. Propeller response
20. Vacuum/gyro air pressures, primary/stand-by/#2:
21. Engine controls
22. Throttle, mixture, prop, carburetor heat/alternate air, cowl flap(s), turbo
23. Carburetor air temperature
24. Hydraulic pressure
25. Tach calibration check
26. Exhaust gas temperature(s) Turbine inlet temperature
27. Compressor discharge temperature
28. Static power, max rpm/manifold press/fuel pressure/flow
29. Crankcase pressure, cowl flaps open, closed (at full static power)
30. Idle mixture rise/idle rpm/cut-off
31. Flight director/gyro horizon
32. Horizontal situation indicator/direction gyro
33. Turn coordinator/turn & bank
34. Compass/remote indicating compass
35. De-ice
36. Surface, windshield, prop de-ice
37. Propeller feather/un-feathering

After the above items are accomplished I use my 18-page checklist I wrote that covers all the things you noted. The 18-page checklist is in my book with FAR references so you know why it has to be inspected. The only things that are not part of the annual inspection are operational items like airworthiness and registration certificates and AFM/POH. Everything else is required to be inspected and noted.

Just one man’s opinion.

Stache

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The only things that are not part of the annual inspection are operational items like airworthiness and registration certificates and AFM/POH. Everything else is required to be inspected and noted.

So, you think they should have checked those items, and we should be complaining that they weren't fixed?

Just got the bill. A few bucks shy of $7,000.

 

[Tom-D]

So, you think they should have checked those items, and we should be complaining that they weren't fixed?

Just got the bill. A few bucks shy of $7,000.

For that price not YES,,, buy he-- YES!

NEVER fly an aircraft out of annual without inspecting the logs, For crying out loud how did you know they were signed off and you were legal to fly..

But now that you have flown the aircraft, all thoses things must have broken after you flew it.

I'm an IA, and it's a CYA thing.

this is exactly why i do my own work (under the direct supervision of a licensed mechanic, of course).

the guys & gals who do aircraft maintainence are between a rock and a hard place. they are tasked with maintaining complex, ticklish machinery that is often older than they are and must do it while keeping a sharp eye on the timeclock. IOW, there is only so much they can reasonably charge for a particular job without incurring the wrath of some owners.

OTOH, my a/c is a hobby , not a business and my time is basically for free. plus i know my a/c intimately, which i believe makes the whole airborne situation safer . i also find it very satisfying to maintain my airplane to a higher standard than the "working standard" most shops must adopt to stay in business.

just my $.02 worth.

blue skies,

"" if it takes me 2 weeks or 2 months to go thru the squawk sheet and do the repairs, it's no big deal.""

Why would you wait until annual to go thru the squak sheet and repair the discrepancies?? the theory boggles my mind.,. flying with discrepancies.

 

[Henning]

"" if it takes me 2 weeks or 2 months to go thru the squawk sheet and do the repairs, it's no big deal.""

Why would you wait until annual to go thru the squak sheet and repair the discrepancies?? the theory boggles my mind.,. flying with discrepancies.

Well, that's a good point, but then you do and can sign off your own work, not so for everyone. If I'm an operator with no in house mx, and it's a non critical discrepency and I can defer it for a few weeks or months and take care of it during scheduled down time, depending on my operating schedule (and current budgetary limitations) and other aircraft cost/availability, it may be a difference in making a profit this quarter or posting a loss especially for a one plane owner operator service. Margins are pretty thin sometimes.

 

[gismo]

Well, that's a good point, but then you do and can sign off your own work, not so for everyone. If I'm an operator with no in house mx, and it's a non critical discrepency and I can defer it for a few weeks or months and take care of it during scheduled down time, depending on my operating schedule (and current budgetary limitations) and other aircraft cost/availability, it may be a difference in making a profit this quarter or posting a loss especially for a one plane owner operator service. Margins are pretty thin sometimes.

OTOH, for us non revenue owner/pilots, keeping up with the squawks instead of saving them for the annual is a good way to hold the annual maintenance cost spike down. For some things it makes sense to defer to either the annual or a common point in time especially if they aren't airworthy issues and require some common work for access. And taking the plane offline everytime a bulb on the panel dies can have a big negative impact on uptime, but regular maintenance undertaken when the plane wouldn't be flying anyway should actually increase availability.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

For that price not YES,,, buy he-- YES!

That was my feeling.

NEVER fly an aircraft out of annual without inspecting the logs, For crying out loud how did you know they were signed off and you were legal to fly..

Because my maintenance officer is perfect, of course.

But now that you have flown the aircraft, all thoses things must have broken after you flew it.

I'm an IA, and it's a CYA thing.

The landing light, at least, was bad both before and after. Visual inspection after revealed an intact filament, so it didn't just burn out.

 

[pete177]

$7000 seems like an incredible figure for an annual on a single unless it had some pretty serious discrepancies. The last annual on my m20e ran $800 before squawks.