Scary Takeoff

Michael

Michael

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CapeCodMichael
Someone posted a while back about the scariest thing you have encountered while flying. Bob sent me this video from gastons, while I have to admit, it looked a lot worse from inside the plane, its still not pretty. This goes up on my top10 list of scariest things I've done in an airplane.
At first I thought that the wet grass had me sliding towards the trees, but after watching the video, it appears that my nosewheel was off the ground and I hit a bump in the turf that caused me to turn towards the trees. Luckily I managed to turn, ever so slightly in order to keep the wing from striking the ground. in time to save the takeoff. Im glad i was the only one in the plane at the time, the empty weight was the only thing that saved me. If I had been heavy, theres no way i wouldve gotten airborne in time.

Link to video here.

Michael
 
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Michael,

Welcome to my world. It looked like every one of my takeoffs :eek:

Looks like you did a nice job in the recovery. We just need to get you trike guys a little tail wheel time to re-learn what those rudder pedal thingy's are for. :p Thanks for sharing.
 
Yeah, I can see where that would get your adrenaline going. Looked like you made a nice recovery out of a potentially bad situation.

Helicopters and grass are great...
Tail draggers and grass are good...
Nosedraggers and grass, maybe not so good... ;)

Thanks for sharing!
 
Wow! Good recovery...best not to hit those trees.
 
Michael, why didn't you use the whole thing, as mentioned on the video? And what does your POH say about flap settings for max performance take offs.

May I suggest you were surprised because you weren't yet fully charged to expect the unexpected on a turf fld with trees?
Nice save
 
Richard said:
Michael, why didn't you use the whole thing, as mentioned on the video? And what does your POH say about flap settings for max performance take offs.

May I suggest you were surprised because you weren't yet fully charged to expect the unexpected on a turf fld with trees?
Nice save
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Richard, That runway was HUGE..I know what is listed, but it is so much longer than that. I did use flaps, and was attempting a soft field. I could have gained an additional 200 feet maybe had i gone to the end of the runway, but I knew I had more than enough room. looking over the tapes of everyone else's takeoffs, it appears everyone hit that same bump, but i seem to be the only one who had a problem with it.
Yes I was suprised, and i am guessing the fog and height of the trees made them to appear to be so much closer to me than what they were. I just remember looking at a wall of trees thinking, ok now what?
 
I couldn't see any flaps extended. Now that I think about it it's a good thing you didn't abort the landing. I mean, from what you've said about your perspective from the driver's seat sans video such a thought (to abort) may have crossed your mind.

Just to be clear, I am not even thinking of 2nd guessing Michael. When I see something that looks to be a learning opportunity I pursue it in order to mine any insights which may not be obvious at first glance. Think of it as investigative learning. I think Michael's take off was a job well done.

EDIT: A friend of mine is a forensic psychologist. Fascinating subject. Moving on from there let me put the question to Michael:

Michael, having experienced the event first hand, having undoubtedly reviewed the event in your mind, having seen the video; what, if anything, would you have done differently?
 
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I wasnt scared, looked like you were flying the airplane to me.
Where can we see all these take-offs, is there a link?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Where can we see all these take-offs, is there a link?
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too big to post them all online, however dave, email me and i will send you a dvd.

Michael
 
Michael said:
looking over the tapes of everyone else's takeoffs, it appears everyone hit that same bump, but i seem to be the only one who had a problem with it.
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That launch point has always been there (as long as I can remember at least), and it always seems to throw any airplane into the air about 10 kts short of flying speed. I have to admit that the Extra is the only airplane I've flown into Gaston's (and there have been a few) that didn't seem to pop up on that bump and try to fly for about three seconds before settling back down and then taking off. You did a good job in an unexpected situation. I'm going to bet that you won't be caught off guard in the takeoff roll again. This is how we all learn.
 
Richard said:
Michael, having experienced the event first hand, having undoubtedly reviewed the event in your mind, having seen the video; what, if anything, would you have done differently?
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Good question Richard. I am not sure if I had pulled the power that i would have been able to correct my path, if you see just before liftoff, there was a nice white obsticle i had to jump. I was at the exact speed where liftoff was not quite ready and aborting wouldve ment damage. I knew when she was ready to fly, i just needed enough room to bank the plane.
Looking back..I guess the only thing i wish i had done differently was to maybe keep better directional controll with rudder and or the nose wheel.
 
Michael said:
Good question Richard. I am not sure if I had pulled the power that i would have been able to correct my path, if you see just before liftoff, there was a nice white obsticle i had to jump. I was at the exact speed where liftoff was not quite ready and aborting wouldve ment damage. I knew when she was ready to fly, i just needed enough room to bank the plane.
Looking back..I guess the only thing i wish i had done differently was to maybe keep better directional controll with rudder and or the nose wheel.
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If you have a video of my departure, you will note I was substantially to the right at that point. I did watch three arrivals before my arrival and watched them all the way to the taxi-off. I believe Cap'n Ron missed the bump by going right, too.

I'm slowly becoming a cautious man. Last winter at Hanging Valley Wall, I watched three young buckeroo skiers launch over the edge. Two were wearing the read Aspen Ski Corp jackets. The second one missed his edge on the first turn and surfed about 400 yards down the 40% grade on his _ss. Bits of his gear went flying. I looked at that and said to self, "self, I'll bet that hurt!" I turned and went down through the glades, though I have been doing the wall since 1968!

You did well. I too responded to the problem by being 650 undergross :).

PS SASE Mailer on the way....
 
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The good thing is you lived to tell about it. Nice recovery.

Was that dew getting slung off the prop from wet grass too, or was the mist that thick?

terry
 
The last (really!) hot and humid day I visited the turf runway at Amana, I had 4 1/2 hours of fuel (about 65 gallons) on board. For whatever reason I didn't use the short field technique. I think the so-called thought process was something like "It's not a lot shorter than a runway at home and I have PLENTY of power and only two of us onboard. No biggee." We cleared the trees at the end, but I have never forgotten how fast they were coming up and that we didn't clear them by more than about 50 feet.

Yesterday it wasn't quite as hot and humid as last time. I had about 2 1/2 hours of fuel (more on that later.) I put out the flaps. I watched for the 65 MPH rotate point but it came and went fast. I was well on the way UP and away at 80MPH and by the midpoint of the runway and I think I we were up to pattern altitude at the cross wind leg point when I withdrew the flaps.

I liked the experience of the second takeoff a lot better.
 
Yes as Chip indicates that is the yea ole rotation bump of Gastons....its been a while but i do remember it well. Great for launching planes from the earth towards the sky a little to early. Good correction. I've had a landing or two were the passengers actually clapped....happy they had stopped or skidded to a halt safely I guess:eek: . Usually they wimper and cry during my takeoffs though:p .

Life goes on and so does the learning.:)

take care
 
bbchien said:
If you have a video of my departure, you will note I was substantially to the right at that point. I did watch three arrivals before my arrival and watched them all the way to the taxi-off. I believe Cap'n Ron missed the bump by going right, too.

I'm slowly becoming a cautious man. Last winter at Hanging Valley Wall, I watched three young buckeroo skiers launch over the edge. Two were wearing the read Aspen Ski Corp jackets. The second one missed his edge on the first turn and surfed about 400 yards down the 40% grade on his _ss. Bits of his gear went flying. I looked at that and said to self, "self, I'll bet that hurt!" I turned and went down through the glades, though I have been doing the wall since 1968!

You did well. It too responded to the problem by being 650 undergross :).

PS SASE Mailer on the way....
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Based on this post something very interesting occurs to me.

How is it that two pilots--Dr Chien and Master Levy--who are argueably among the most experienced pilots happened to position themselves on the right side away from the bump while it seems others, even though they knew of the bump, did not? I feel a learning moment coming on...
 
wow - nice save Michael. Looked like the wing was about 1 to 2 feet off the ground...whew.

Yeah - I'm glad Mark and I went to BPK to wait for you. My weight in the right seat may have been enough to put that wing into the ground! Yikes!
 
Richard said:
Based on this post something very interesting occurs to me.

How is it that two pilots--Dr Chien and Master Levy--who are argueably among the most experienced pilots happened to position themselves on the right side away from the bump while it seems others, even though they knew of the bump, did not? I feel a learning moment coming on...
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I am not enough of a bush expert to have said to others- "watch that bump", but I have owned a nice Cessna 140 and have lotsa grass time.

I had an "aha" moment- that with Kent in my left seat. The Left seat is a very different seat for me- one in which I become more "hyper aware" of the impacts on the aircraft, after all I'm in teaching mode. We got the bump, but with 420 hp and 900 undergross, we stayed in ground effect. Said to self, "I'll be heavier in the morning. Avoid that bump". Walked the runway that afternoon. Tailwheel training for off pavement operations. "Walk that strip."

But I also am enough of a learner to have watched Cap'n Ron and Fran depart, and watch carefully. Also to have taken advantage of being #4 for the runway inbound and watching all the way to the end (there is some value in 360s). Ron and Fran took the ENTIRE runway, all the way back to the edge of the grass. He had a bump but it wasn't much of one. He went RIGHT. Sure enough on foot, the "hump" is more prominent on the north edge of the strip. I suspect Ron walked the strip, too....separately.
 
bbchien said:
I am not enough of a bush expert to have said to others- "watch that bump", but I have owned a nice Cessna 140 and have lotsa grass time.
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Little old Bowdoinham 08B(1948') has an annual "launch pad" about 1/2 way down #14. It's a yearly frost heave which usually requires late April or into May before it settles into flat. Usually, we try to come into #14 over the trees(and the highway) as slowly as possible so that speed has declined by the time we cross the bump.
First photo was on May 15, '05; no intent to land because the runway was still soft from all the rain we'd had. 2nd photo shows a friend coming into #14 with his Tiger. 3rd image, Tiger on the departure.

HR
 
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So the Tiger got out of there ok? 1948' of turf seems a tad short for a Tiger, doesn't it?
 
BillG said:
So the Tiger got out of there ok? 1948' of turf seems a tad short for a Tiger, doesn't it?
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Bill: there's more gravel than grass(which increasingly pokes through the gravel). Bruce flies his Tiger out of near Hampton, NH. That first image was when he was doing a go-around because I'd radiod him about the bump. The beginning of #14 is only 100' or so beyond the trees and highway as might be seen, below. Bruce didn't have any problem getting out, though he started from very near the highway. Come up and visit. You, too, Andrew Stanley(and everyone).
#1: Off the end of #32.
#2: #14 nearest the trees and highway.

HR
 
I'd like to check it out (and get back to Hampton, too, which I did in my Skyhawk all the time) but I'm not quite ready to go in there with the Tiger yet. Gotta prove to myself that I can get it out again!
 
BillG said:
I'd like to check it out (and get back to Hampton, too, which I did in my Skyhawk all the time) but I'm not quite ready to go in there with the Tiger yet. Gotta prove to myself that I can get it out again!
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I'd probably pass on, 1948 ft. turf runway. Obviously its doable in a Tiger as we've just seen the pictures. I'm sure this guy is VERY light. One person, fuel to the tabs, etc. Plus he's at sea level, I think and I hope its cool there. Katama or Gaston's, no problem as they are longer.
 
Anthony said:
I'd probably pass on, 1948 ft. turf runway. Obviously its doable in a Tiger as we've just seen the pictures. I'm sure this guy is VERY light. One person, fuel to the tabs, etc. Plus he's at sea level, I think and I hope its cool there. Katama or Gaston's, no problem as they are longer.
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Bruce(in prior photos) came in and departed with my NH brother in-law as a passenger; I'm not aware of the fuel status on the occasion. One of our based owners flies his Grumman Cheetah, another has an RV-4. 65msl. Incidentally, this 60 year old strip was once a training air field for the Navy.
There was a time, back in the 40s or so, that NAS Brunswick was closed. U.S. and some British planes used the field as a training area during that interim. One of our guys recalls a DC-3 using the field. Can't prove it by me.

BillG: let me know when you might come up to visit. We've had planes from NH and MA visit in recent weeks.

HR( with older photos, below)
 
Richard said:
I couldn't see any flaps extended.
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If you slow the video down, and look real close, it does appear there are flaps down. The M20C I fly in, takeoff flaps are 2 pumps, and that doesn't look very much on the plane - you can just make them out at about 12-15 seconds in.
 
gibbons said:
That launch point has always been there (as long as I can remember at least), and it always seems to throw any airplane into the air about 10 kts short of flying speed. I have to admit that the Extra is the only airplane I've flown into Gaston's (and there have been a few) that didn't seem to pop up on that bump and try to fly for about three seconds before settling back down and then taking off. You did a good job in an unexpected situation. I'm going to bet that you won't be caught off guard in the takeoff roll again. This is how we all learn.
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Looks to me like you were fighting the roll to the right from the first bump and overcorrected a bit to the left. IME this is fairly common when attempting a soft field TO as you will transition from running on the ground where the ailerons acting in reverse to flying at a very low speed where the ailerons aren't very effective at roll control. I can't see it in the video, but I also suspect you took the pressure off the right rudder when the bump popped you into the air.
 
terzap said:
The good thing is you lived to tell about it. Nice recovery.

Was that dew getting slung off the prop from wet grass too, or was the mist that thick?

terry
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Terry, The grass was pretty wet so that could be what you are seeing, Then again the mist was kinda think as well. Your guess is as good as mine.

Michael
 
SJP said:
If you slow the video down, and look real close, it does appear there are flaps down. The M20C I fly in, takeoff flaps are 2 pumps, and that doesn't look very much on the plane - you can just make them out at about 12-15 seconds in.
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Absolutly correct. 2 pumps flaps for takeoff.

Michael
 
Is the infamous bump where Michaels right wheel lifted up or shortly after when the entire plane launched and the right wing dipped? ( I wasn't there so I don't know). Michael that must have given you some serious pucker factor.
 
lancefisher said:
I can't see it in the video, but I also suspect you took the pressure off the right rudder when the bump popped you into the air.
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Watching the light reflection off the rudder I don't see any right rudder at any point in the take-off roll (not unexpected given the Mooney's strong steering forces and strong nose-wheel centerning forces), nor do I see additional right rudder applied at/after nose wheel lift-off (gyroscopic forces would start a left turn) or during the subsequent high AOA flight (p-factor, etc., etc.). My impression watching the entire video is that the left drift begins at nose wheel lift-off and continues unabated until the right bank that caught everyone's attention.

IOW & IMO, the bump provides a nice visual impact and conversation point, but it didn't cause/contribute to the left turn/drift. The left turn was in process and uncorrected from nose wheel lift-off right through the bump transition.
 
It wasn't so much scary for me to take off from Gaston's, but the plane got off the ground at like 40 knots, it took all the will power i had to hold the nose down as the trees at the end of the runway were coming up fast. It was an awesome experience.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Watching the light reflection off the rudder I don't see any right rudder at any point in the take-off roll (not unexpected given the Mooney's strong steering forces and strong nose-wheel centerning forces), nor do I see additional right rudder applied at/after nose wheel lift-off (gyroscopic forces would start a left turn) or during the subsequent high AOA flight (p-factor, etc., etc.). My impression watching the entire video is that the left drift begins at nose wheel lift-off and continues unabated until the right bank that caught everyone's attention.

IOW & IMO, the bump provides a nice visual impact and conversation point, but it didn't cause/contribute to the left turn/drift. The left turn was in process and uncorrected from nose wheel lift-off right through the bump transition.
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Is that an indictment of the pilot's operation? I'm serious but I don't want to raise any hackles.
 
Michael. I didn't mean anything against you in my video comments. I was more or less just thinking out loud as I was shooting the takeoff. I did a little of the same thing on my take off. I had four on board and was planning on keeping it on the ground until I got a good ground roll and then pulling on 2 notches of flaps ( my old cessna has a flap handle) and as hot as it was I pulled the flaps to soon and it wasn't ready to fly. So I staggered into the air, lowered the nose and finally got to flying. We didn't leave until about 1:00 and it was hot! I wish I hadn't made the comments that I did.:no:
 
Bob Bement said:
Michael. I didn't mean anything against you in my video comments. I was more or less just thinking out loud as I was shooting the takeoff. I did a little of the same thing on my take off. I had four on board and was planning on keeping it on the ground until I got a good ground roll and then pulling on 2 notches of flaps ( my old cessna has a flap handle) and as hot as it was I pulled the flaps to soon and it wasn't ready to fly. So I staggered into the air, lowered the nose and finally got to flying. We didn't leave until about 1:00 and it was hot! I wish I hadn't made the comments that I did.:no:
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Bob, I don't think you've done anything to regret. Yeah, I think this is getting pretty touchy but upon hearing your comments on the vid I for one didn't think you were being prejudiced against Michael. I took it as you voicing an awareness based upon your own skill set. Reflections on observations usually result in some level of insight. I fully appreciate you posting the vid and the all the comments.

I consider your vid to be a great instructional aid in this developing case study. And that is exactly how I consider this. It's a case study and it can be a wonderful learning opportunity. I've found it's the subtle factors which result in a good amout of any learning to be had. The focus should not be on the person except for what was his thought process. Again, we can learn from this.
 
Thanks Richard that makes me feel better. When we get to the point that we think we can't learn anything , that is when, we had better quit.
 
Bob,
i found myself really rooting for the pilot bob, your comments added to the drama :)
If i had been watching from your prospective i wouldve said the exact same things.

Ed,
I dont see how i could alowed such a drift without corrective messures. most every takeoff in my mooney requires a stiff kick of right rudder to keep the plane on centerline. If your assesment is correct, amybe not having a visual reference such as a centerline may have contributed. However, again, I dont see how that much of a drift could have gotten that far out of controll. what i really think is at play here is the camera angle in which you are seeing a drift, which is in fact the planes movement in contrast with the cameramans position. of course i woud like to blame it on a "bump" not pilot error. :)

Michael
 
Here's what we have so far:

It's important to know the performance of you aircraft. Remember to consider the effects of humidity, fld surface and condition, as well as ambient temp.

It's never a bad idea to walk the fld at these type strips. Doing this helps to plan the takeoff and avoid surprises.

Lack of normal visual cues may alter our perception.


What else?
 
Steve said:
Don't feel bad, Bob, I was sitting in the shade Sunday afternoon making the same comments to myself about half the planes that departed. I noticed several examples of planes lifting off at minimum speed in a nose high attitude and caught myself saying out loud "don't rush it" . I think the trees give the illusion of a much shorter runway, yet at 3200' its as long or longer as many paved runways.

Any experience is a good one if you can both learn from it and survive the lesson.
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One of them might have been me. Sometimes when the airplane gets to bouncing, it is easier to get it off the ground and sort it out in the air. But I also know that there is plenty of room to accelerate before getting to the trees there.
 
Richard said:
Is that an indictment of the pilot's operation? I'm serious but I don't want to raise any hackles.
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What's an indictment? Michael posted the video and Michael knows he ended up pointed at the trees so anything I might write isn't going to come as a particular surprise to him. I simply noted what I saw as a somewhat experienced Mooney pilot & CFI. No slam intended, but I'd hate to see somewhat lay the left turn onto the "bump" and fail to notice the actual cause. YMMV.
 
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