Santa Monica City Council Raising Landing Fees 250% Tonight Tues. 4/30

So show that you actually give a rat's rear and use the power of the locals who want to keep the airport.

That is assuming you have a rodent rectum to give


:popcorn::popcorn:


Sorry Tom, I have no clue about AOPA's efforts at SMO. I did throw up in my mouth a little bit when I saw this:

AOPA praised Congress today for passing legislation that would give the Federal Aviation Administration the flexibility to make more measured decisions about spending cuts, including staffing and contract towers. "Through their strong support for this measure, both the House and Senate have made it clear that the safety and efficiency of our aviation system is a priority," said AOPA President Craig Fuller. "All of us who fly are grateful for their efforts."

How an organization that is supposedly here to support GA can praise the FAA for this is beyond me.

You know what is good for GA? RUNWAYS. My understanding is the Airport Improvement Fund was already cut at least 25% this year compared to the last 10 BEFORE they take the money out to pay unneeded controllers. What good is a controller going to be if there isn't a runway to land on???
 
Tony, AOPA was too busy patting itself on the back to realize that the deal they endorsed would (and did) lead directly to the closure of ISZ, why should keeping useless controllers on the job be any different?
 
11-A: Adopt a Resolution Amending the Santa Monica Airport Landing Fee Program – recommendation to adopt the attached resolution to change the landing fee program from the current $2.07 per thousand pounds of certificated maximum gross landing weight to $5.48 and apply the fee to itinerant and based aircraft at the Santa Monica Airport (Airport), effective August 1, 2013, and approve the budget changes as outlined in the Financial Impacts and Budget Actions section of this report.

Craig

Is the airport self sufficient or does the city have to provide funding for the airport's budget?

Also, how do they determine the "certificated maximum gross landing weight" for an experimental aircraft -- is that available from the FAA?
 
Is the airport self sufficient or does the city have to provide funding for the airport's budget?

The airport is self sufficient, but for the purposes of passing the landing fee the commission excluded a "non-aviation" part of the airport from the calculation. This "non-aviation land" includes hangars and tie-downs currently providing income.
 
The real power still lies with those living in that community.


+1... unless the folks that have a vested interest in keeping the airport do something about it if it closes the so be it..

Maybe we as a group can carpet bomb the Santa Monica officials with emails, letters, etc... in showing support for our friends at Santa Monica.

Anyone here know who at Santa Monica City Hall this needs to go to?
 
So show that you actually give a rat's rear and use the power of the locals who want to keep the airport.

That is assuming you have a rodent rectum to give

I believe in the case of Santa Monica there is only so much that AOPA can do and I believe they are doing it. The locals have to raise to the occasion and wage war against the city officials as well..

The city has been trying to close this airport since the 80's and have tried every trick in the books to do it.. Now that anti-airport crowd has a sympathetic majority on the city council it is pretty hard proposition.
 
I believe in the case of Santa Monica there is only so much that AOPA can do and I believe they are doing it. The locals have to raise to the occasion and wage war against the city officials as well..

The city has been trying to close this airport since the 80's and have tried every trick in the books to do it.. Now that anti-airport crowd has a sympathetic majority on the city council it is pretty hard proposition.

Yes, Bill Dunn of the AOPA has been working hard on our cause.

I'm afraid the anti-airport crowd has more than a majority on the city council, there wasn't one airport-sympathetic person on the City Council or even the Airport Commission. My depressing take-away from yesterday's meeting is the only way the airport might be saved is in the courts, the City Council has made up their mind.
 
The Council is planning on using our tax dollars to fight for their cause. 83% of SM are not opposed to SMO! So they are going against the will of their constituents.

If that's the case, maybe it's time for pilots who live in Santa Monica to start circulating recall petitions.
 
They better do their homework. Meigs was not surplus property. They will not get away with a Meigs style closure. And it will not be a small fine.

Does violating a surplus property agreement result in a fine, or does the property revert to the federal government?
 
You may be right in this case that the city government and those living nearby (not the citizens as a whole by the way, because we did a survey of the citizens and they are clearly in favor of the airport over development) may trump all efforts and end up closing this particular airport. But the suggestion that AOPA is sitting idly by in this case is very wrong, as a quick search of our Web site will show. There is only so much that a national organization can do in a local community. The real power still lies with those living in that community.

Tom, at no time did I suggest that AOPA is sitting idly by. What I explictly stated was that AOPA has no power to do anything. It's not an issue of a National Organization vs Local Community.
 
So show that you actually give a rat's rear and use the power of the locals who want to keep the airport.

That is assuming you have a rodent rectum to give

Once you care enough to look into the situation even a little, you will learn how many boots we've had on the ground for years at SMO working to support local pilots in their efforts.
 
:popcorn::popcorn:


Sorry Tom, I have no clue about AOPA's efforts at SMO. I did throw up in my mouth a little bit when I saw this:



How an organization that is supposedly here to support GA can praise the FAA for this is beyond me.

You know what is good for GA? RUNWAYS. My understanding is the Airport Improvement Fund was already cut at least 25% this year compared to the last 10 BEFORE they take the money out to pay unneeded controllers. What good is a controller going to be if there isn't a runway to land on???

Tony, one quickly learns inside the Beltway (where, fortunately I don't have to venture often), that a perfect solution is seldom to be found. This deal will keep the system working for now. While most of GA was not yet negatively impacted by the controller furloughs, the general public was being effected. Our standing in the way was not going to stop it. So let's build some credits with our friends in Congress, which is what Craig's comments did.

There's hundreds of millions of unobligated dollars in the trust fund. What airport improvement projects do you know of that are ready to go--including local funding lined up--that are being held up for lack of federal funds? I don't know of any.
 
That doesn't mean that paying controllers is an appropriate use of the money.
 
I don't know about this specific obligations, but they did mention Meig's field as one way of closing the airport. They said the fine Chicago had to pay the FAA was small and would be worth paying.

Pfft. Wait till they trade a huge economic engine for a debt to be paid by tax payers. Then it won't be so inexpensive

Tom - the problem with AOPA is that it operates in "Friends of the Court" mode. It really can't do much because it has no legal power.

The real key is to discover who, all these years, is really behind the land grab. In a situation like this it's always the developers who see prime real estate. SMO has already stated very publicly that it'll pay any fine the FAA imposes for shutting it down. There's not much that can be done other than finding a truly vicious legal team to do battle in court.

At some point the GA world will go away from SMO, making the city & the developers very happy, and they'll have the rationale to close it down.

Mmmm yes and no. AOPA may fill and Amicus role but they bring a lot to the table, They bring the "How To" to assist the local pilots and residents who understand the importance of the airport. They also have the resources to bring statistics and information to the table that are more than just anecdotal.


Tony and Adam, if you think AOPA hasn't been all over the SMO issue, you haven't been paying attention. There are dozens of links on our site about our efforts there over the years, including this story about tonight's meeting that posted this morning: http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articl...roposed-doubling-of-santa-monica-airport.html


You may be right in this case that the city government and those living nearby (not the citizens as a whole by the way, because we did a survey of the citizens and they are clearly in favor of the airport over development) may trump all efforts and end up closing this particular airport. But the suggestion that AOPA is sitting idly by in this case is very wrong, as a quick search of our Web site will show. There is only so much that a national organization can do in a local community. The real power still lies with those living in that community.

Tom, I never suggested or implied nor do I think that AOPA was sitting idly by nor that they weren't on top of the situation. My statement was basically saying "SMO you need AOPA on this" as in, time to call in the big bats!
 
Folks, when an airport is threatened, there is no greater resource for pilots and airport users than AOPA, especially in navigating the arcane and sometimes downright confounding practices of the FAA and its administration of airport standards and grant rights.

So, AOPA cannot step in and play the enforcer - that's outside its lawful role; but, as Adam noted, AOPA's participation as an "Amicus" (I like that characterization) is invaluable, and the organization, on its own and (especially) in support of the ASN Army, has facilitated some remarkable successes. When someone says, "They can't do that!" or "There oughtta be a law..." - AOPA's resources are there to guide and assist.

If you've been directly involved in one of these battles, you know what I mean. You may not see them in the bright light, but they are there!

---

Tom:

Thanks for your advocacy - keep it up!

And, welcome to PoA!
 
Folks, when an airport is threatened, there is no greater resource for pilots and airport users than AOPA, especially in navigating the arcane and sometimes downright confounding practices of the FAA and its administration of airport standards and grant rights.

So, AOPA cannot step in and play the enforcer - that's outside its lawful role; but, as Adam noted, AOPA's participation as an "Amicus" (I like that characterization) is invaluable, and the organization, on its own and (especially) in support of the ASN Army, has facilitated some remarkable successes. When someone says, "They can't do that!" or "There oughtta be a law..." - AOPA's resources are there to guide and assist.

If you've been directly involved in one of these battles, you know what I mean. You may not see them in the bright light, but they are there!

---

Tom:

Thanks for your advocacy - keep it up!

And, welcome to PoA!

*cough* look over here *cough*
 
To its credit, AOPA has been working on this issue for quite a few years. There are limits to what it can do. At the end of the day, if the folks the citizens elect don't want an airport, they'll manage not to have one. With Democracy comes responsibility. Those who exercise their franchise poorly deserve the consequences.

The sad thing is I think LA has as many airports as my one-horse town, with about ten times more people and way better weather.
 
I'm pretty sure Columbus is big enough for *two* horses.
 
As noted, no one believes this is a perfect solution and definitely not long-term solution as was noted in our original story.

sorry i had only originally read the blurb i got in the aopa email list i'm still on, not the entire linked article.

i had assumed that the statement was intended to communicate AOPA's joy of the situation to their pilot members, not congress people. I still think words like "praised" and "celebrate" are totally inappropriate for this. In my opinion the Airport Improvement Fund is a sacred cow and not to be messed with. I have a problem with crappy short term solutions as they tend to not get replaced with good long term solutions.

And sorry for the rough welcome to PoA Tom, its nice to see people like you here. There is plenty of AOPA-hate here from time to time when some of us get frustrated with our perceptions of lack of action, and having someone involved in the organization to help set us straight will be a good thing. Might even get a few of us to rejoin! :)
 
Pfft. Wait till they trade a huge economic engine for a debt to be paid by tax payers. Then it won't be so inexpensive

Adam:

As they drive aircraft away, the airport becomes less of an economic engine. The resulting economics get compared to the amount of tax money collected from office buildings, stores, and residences built on the property. In the accounting models that folks use, the land development would likely look more attractive financially compared to the airport.

I would venture a guess, knowing a little about the area, that mose of the economic benefits claimed by airport proponents are benefits derived from businesses in Century City and surrounding jurisdictions. Yes, SM gets some, but when you total up the benefits (in many cases tied to corporate jets and operations), those go outside. The airport employs a certain number of folks for the operations - those will be replace by jobs at businesses that would occupy the airfield property. Hangar/tiedown fees get replaced by property taxes on houses/condos/apartments. The denser the development, the higher the value.

From the political standpoint, the politicians have to respond to the residents of property tax-paying residences nearby the airport. The airport & services on the airport don't vote, unless they live in SM. You gonna tell someone that has a $800,000+ house that they should just put up with noise 'cause they bought after the airport was built? And still expect to get re-elected? Not in MY back yard.

A regional and national approach is needed - airports are infrastructure, like roads. LAX, BUR, ONT, LGB benefit the entire region, but the negatives (noise, valuation, etc) are borne by the local community. LAWA's management of the airports is a benefit because it's a regional plan. Local airports are generally not. There simply is not a "cachet" these days to having an airport.

In my area, once upon a time there was an airport at Bailey's Crossroads in Alexandria. It closed, was sold, and several high-rise buildings were built on the land (Skyline Towers). The city reaps huge economic (tax, businesses, residential) benefits from the towers, far more than would ever be gained from the airport. When there's scarcity of buildable property, the value of land rises to a level that it's uneconomic to keep it for runways (that was the case at Bailey's, I believe it's also the case in Santa Monica).

Mmmm yes and no. AOPA may fill and Amicus role but they bring a lot to the table, They bring the "How To" to assist the local pilots and residents who understand the importance of the airport. They also have the resources to bring statistics and information to the table that are more than just anecdotal.

That's correct. In the end, though, the local government has to be convinced of the value of the airport vs what they might do with the money from the sale & the ongoing tax revenue if it's within the city boundaries. (In the case of ISZ, the city council got fixated on a streetcar that they thought would be a better use of the cash from sale of the land - the land at ISZ, besides being outside the city limits, was much more valuable for development than Sunken Lunken).
 
There is plenty of AOPA-hate here from time to time when some of us get frustrated with our perceptions of lack of action, and having someone involved in the organization to help set us straight will be a good thing. Might even get a few of us to rejoin! :)

Rejoin Tony. We need your support and then you'll get ALL the skinny. With that, maybe your perceptions will change--or at least you'll be able to rant with more authority. :wink2:

Thanks for the welcome. Been lurking a while, but knowing how much effort we've put into SMO, couldn't stay out of this one.
 
From the political standpoint, the politicians have to respond to the residents of property tax-paying residences nearby the airport. The airport & services on the airport don't vote, unless they live in SM. You gonna tell someone that has a $800,000+ house that they should just put up with noise 'cause they bought after the airport was built? And still expect to get re-elected? Not in MY back yard.

And yet the survey results referred to earlier in the thread seem to indicate that a large majority of Santa Monica residents favor keeping SMO open. Is that not correct?
 
Really? How many runways does Columbus have?

Paved, I count 11.

4 at OSU
3 at LCK
2 at CMH
1 at TZR
1 at 041

I count 24 public use in what I think of the LAX area. I didn't count Brackett, Chino, Ontario, etc...
 
Last edited:
Rejoin Tony. We need your support and then you'll get ALL the skinny. With that, maybe your perceptions will change--or at least you'll be able to rant with more authority. :wink2:

Thanks for the welcome. Been lurking a while, but knowing how much effort we've put into SMO, couldn't stay out of this one.

well thats part of the reason why many of us have dropped our membership. We just kept getting the impression that you didn't need our support. Best I could tell was that AOPA was spending more money on junk mail and the magazine etc than I was paying, which tells me that my membership isn't needed. Hopefully a new CEO will help.
 
well thats part of the reason why many of us have dropped our membership. We just kept getting the impression that you didn't need our support. Best I could tell was that AOPA was spending more money on junk mail and the magazine etc than I was paying, which tells me that my membership isn't needed. Hopefully a new CEO will help.

Tony, since I'm on a campaign here, just a word about the "junk mail" (BTW, it pains me that you put the magazine in the same sentence! :confused:). Know that no AOPA dues money is spent on those marketing pieces promoting the various non-AOPA-owned products, such credit card, Christmas cards, emergency travel insurance, LifeLine, etc. The companies who own those products pay for all of the marketing. If you buy, we get a cut, which, allows us to do more without raising dues.

If not enough members buy, the companies pull up stakes and leave. However, none even get started without a formal and statistically valid market test series.

So if you keep getting mailings for a product know that a significant number of members are buying the product, even though it may not interest you.

Of course, you can elect not to receive the mailings. But you might miss one that actually has value to you. You can also just throw them away. A lack of response sends its own message.

Bottom line: AOPA funds are not used to support those marketing efforts.
 
well thats part of the reason why many of us have dropped our membership. We just kept getting the impression that you didn't need our support. Best I could tell was that AOPA was spending more money on junk mail and the magazine etc than I was paying, which tells me that my membership isn't needed. Hopefully a new CEO will help.
If you call AOPA directly and ask to have your ENTIRE membership history deleted the spam and junk mail will eventually stop.
 
sorry i didn't mean to insinuate that the magazine was junk mail, just was part of my math of all of the renewal notices i was getting, plus the magazine, adding up the cost of printing and postage, and it seemed to me that almost all of the $45 was going to printing and postage.
 
I think I have seen more response from AOPA on this thread that I have in several years on the AOPA forums. If AOPA would actually start engaging with people on their forums the way that you are here, I think it would be a huge factor in addressing some of the issues that current members grumble about and having people rejoin!
 
Well it went badly at SMO.....the developers are drooling.....the public is sooo easily manipulated....the council is declaring closure in 2015....
 
Last edited:
Just an aside WRT to the automated collection of these landing fees.

What if one were to obscure the aircraft's N number? It seems like it would be child's play to simply white out the last digit or letter, and let the camera automatically bill...no one.

The only way this fails is if they follow the German model, and place a highly-paid bureaucrat at every airfield, whose sole job is to collect landing fees.
 
Just an aside WRT to the automated collection of these landing fees.

What if one were to obscure the aircraft's N number? It seems like it would be child's play to simply white out the last digit or letter, and let the camera automatically bill...no one.

The only way this fails is if they follow the German model, and place a highly-paid bureaucrat at every airfield, whose sole job is to collect landing fees.

The point isn't landing fees, it's to close the airport. That sort of action would only accelerate the process. I'm sure the City Council would LOVE to show how "not even landing fees will work because those sneaky bastard pilots block their numbers and cheat the tax payers"
 
Does violating a surplus property agreement result in a fine, or does the property revert to the federal government?

Reverts.

49 USC 47151, 47152, and 47153

" When a term under this section is not satisfied, any part of the interest in the property reverts to the Government, at the option of the Government, as the property then exists. "

--Carlos V.
 
The point isn't landing fees, it's to close the airport. That sort of action would only accelerate the process. I'm sure the City Council would LOVE to show how "not even landing fees will work because those sneaky bastard pilots block their numbers and cheat the tax payers"

Oh, I know the ultimate goal is airport closure. Just playing devil's advocate.

Personally, I think Santa Monica is a lost cause. If the people have elected representative that unanimously want to close an airport, it's not going to remain open without legal gymnastics that will ultimately makes all pilots look like the whiny rich guys that the public believes us to be.

Besides, it's California. If they want a land of no airports, who are we to argue?
 
Besides, it's California. If they want a land of no airports, who are we to argue?

Those of us who live in California certainly have a right to argue with it.

On the other hand, maybe AOPA, EAA, etc. should just break up into fifty sets of state pilot organizations. I'm sure the airport-haters would love that. "Divide and conquer!"
 
Back
Top