Sanity check before I buy...

I just wouldn't be comfortable with less than $20k in the bank as a reserve. You need to factor other emergencies in life, not just an airplane engine. Not sure of your stage of life to predict what you need.

I buy in to the 3-6 months expenses in reserve.
 
Wayne: An RV-6 seats two side by side, not tandem. The -3, -4 and -8 are tandem, the -6, -7, -9 and -14 are side by side, the -10 seats four. My wife doesn't mind seeing the back of my helmet on the bike, but I didn't want to stuff her in the back of a plane too so I went with the -7a.

Mafoo: I know of one RV-6 for sale at $26K. Don't know what kind of shape it's in. There do seem to be a number of older RV-6's (though we're still talking 3-4 decades newer than most affordable certified) for sale at prices that would make a 2-way partnership affordable. Now, how good a deal is that? Dunno, you'd have to look. It will outrun the 182 and burn a lot less gas doing it, but of course it's not going to carry nearly as much.

The 182 might turn out to be exactly what you want. It might turn out to be a life lesson. Again, it's impossible for anyone but you to know. You want a real flood of discouragement and gloom-and-doom predictions? Mention building your own! :)

I'm 1/45 owner of three planes -- a 172, a 182 and an Arrow. I almost never have to work around other club members, and if I were endorsed and experienced enough to be able to fly all three I'd never have a conflict. Fully half the club members don't ever fly, and they still keep their membership even with an extra monthly charge for non-flyers. The airplane with the most hours on it this year is the Arrow with nearly 300 total for the year so far. The 182 has less than 80, I think. So... if you want to figure out how available the plane will be, you've got to see how the other partners plan to use it. Their uses may put them in direct conflict with you often, or they may be flying when you're not.

So... while you'll have no shortage of well-meaning advice here, much of it good, all of it comes from other peoples' experiences. Your experience will be different to some degree or other. You've got to decide if the deal is right for you.
 
So if this were me, I would be concerned about the fact that it is a new partnership. For a new partnership, there are going to be 6 people wanting to fly this plane. It sounds like it could be the "worst of both worlds" where you deal with the availability issues of a rental along with the headaches of ownership (unexpected expenses and downtown). Some others on this thread have described situations where multiple owners in a partnership don't fly a lot or at all, leaving the plane available to a few members. While I don't understand that in general, even if that happens out there, I just can't see that being a possibility for a new partnership. I cannot see someone forking out that kind of money and not want to fly the plane.

The good part of this though is that there are a bunch of other people interested in this. So hopefully if you go for it and it doesn't work out, you will be able to get out of it.
 
Ok, so the max I am going to sink into an aircraft, is 27K. That's what's siting in my checking account right now, and all I plan to spend.

It's just a lot of money, so I want to make damn sure I make the right choice. What do you all think? Am I crazy for even questioning it?

Sanity and airplane purchase are in no way related.
 
What happens when,,,,,,, at the next owners meeting they vote 7 to 1 to spend a lot more money than you have?
 
The "new" wears off pretty quickly, and can usually be forecast to occur about the time those who have been doing the most flying receive their second or third credit card bill with a list of av-fuel charges.

After that, you'll get a more accurate indication of ongoing use, at least until you admit a new owner to the group. I advise owners involved in such groups to just ignore the usage patterns for at least 90 days.



So if this were me, I would be concerned about the fact that it is a new partnership. For a new partnership, there are going to be 6 people wanting to fly this plane. It sounds like it could be the "worst of both worlds" where you deal with the availability issues of a rental along with the headaches of ownership (unexpected expenses and downtown). Some others on this thread have described situations where multiple owners in a partnership don't fly a lot or at all, leaving the plane available to a few members. While I don't understand that in general, even if that happens out there, I just can't see that being a possibility for a new partnership. I cannot see someone forking out that kind of money and not want to fly the plane.

The good part of this though is that there are a bunch of other people interested in this. So hopefully if you go for it and it doesn't work out, you will be able to get out of it.
 
@Doug and Sportsman
I am not expecting anyone to pay my bills. Just that I am less worried that they won't pay theirs. Also, I have 27K, not 20K, and the share cost 16.5, That leaves me with a collective 60K (if mine is only 1/6th) the total for reserve, if we need it.

We have no clue when the motor will go. Could be the next hour, could me in 3000. So we agreed as a group to just wait and see what happens, and pay it when the time comes.

Also, the 27K is not everything I have. Just what I am willing to poor into the hobby.

@Tom
In the agreement, it is written that upgrades require a unanimous vote. So a 5 to 1 vote means no upgrade. (only 6 people, not 8)
 
Not long ago you were heralding the 175 as being the next coming. What happened to that story?

Until overhaul time. when you can't find any gear box replacement parts.
 
@Doug and Sportsman
I am not expecting anyone to pay my bills. Just that I am less worried that they won't pay theirs. Also, I have 27K, not 20K, and the share cost 16.5, That leaves me with a collective 60K (if mine is only 1/6th) the total for reserve, if we need it.

We have no clue when the motor will go. Could be the next hour, could me in 3000. So we agreed as a group to just wait and see what happens, and pay it when the time comes.

Also, the 27K is not everything I have. Just what I am willing to poor into the hobby.

@Tom
In the agreement, it is written that upgrades require a unanimous vote. So a 5 to 1 vote means no upgrade. (only 6 people, not 8)
One corollary to airplane partnerships: the group will vote to upgrade until the poorest member is out of money.
 
Hope its not too late but with $27k perhaps you should consider a partner, go to $45-50k - and have a little reserve.
 
One corollary to airplane partnerships: the group will vote to upgrade until the poorest member is out of money.

You simply need to buy the airplane the way you want it - this eliminates the urge to upgrade. . .

I bought mine with a 530, S-Tec 60-2, GPSS, HSI, Radar Alt, DME, GTX-330 and have never even considered updating anything.

When the time comes for ADS-B, that is when I'll update to WAAS and put in the new ELT. Might as well only pay once.
 
Yes, some people do. But in my experience after owning all or part of 5 airplanes, even 100 hours a year is A LOT of personal flying. If you have a business purpose and can use it that way, things change, of course. Tom will probably back me up on this: The average individual-owned airplane probably flies about 40 hours a year.

I suggest you take another hard look at HOW you plan to use the airplane before you go in either direction. And don't just assume you'll make that trip to wherever twice a month or every weekend for an indefinite time. Lots and lots of people THINK they'll fly X hours a year, but when it comes down to it real life gets in the way and there simply isn't time to do all that flitting about, even if there is the money for it.

I think Ken has it about right. Well into our second one now, and average is about 50 hours per year or slightly over. 200 hours or even 100 will be hard to do and hold down a regular job and take care of all the other stuff you have to do.
 
@Doug and Sportsman
I am not expecting anyone to pay my bills. Just that I am less worried that they won't pay theirs. Also, I have 27K, not 20K, and the share cost 16.5, That leaves me with a collective 60K (if mine is only 1/6th) the total for reserve, if we need it.

We have no clue when the motor will go. Could be the next hour, could me in 3000. So we agreed as a group to just wait and see what happens, and pay it when the time comes.

Also, the 27K is not everything I have. Just what I am willing to poor into the hobby.

@Tom
In the agreement, it is written that upgrades require a unanimous vote. So a 5 to 1 vote means no upgrade. (only 6 people, not 8)

Big difference in having 27k and having 27k allocated to a hobby. If I came off condescending, that was not my intent. Just my take to your question on whether you were making the right decision.

Good luck.
 
So at this point in the thread, did you decide if you're sane or insane? ;)

(Thread title.)
 
So at this point in the thread, did you decide if you're sane or insane? ;)

(Thread title.)

LOL, a little bit of both. I feel more comfortable with the share, as most every concern that has come up in this thread has been covered in the agreement, it's nice when the person setting up the share has done this many times before.

Also, I think Dale had it right at the beginning of this thread. If I made a mistake with the share, just sell it. I don't think I would have any problem once it's established.
 
But even if we can fly it every weekend, and we go an hour and a half away, it's only 156 hours. 200 is high.

Bought my plane in mid-July. I've put 90 hours on it. I suspect that will start to taper off a bit, but I'm expecting 200 hours for the first year.
 
Any training in that number?

Bought my plane in mid-July. I've put 90 hours on it. I suspect that will start to taper off a bit, but I'm expecting 200 hours for the first year.
 
I'm in a 50% partnership and it works out great. I would not, however, want any more partners than that. Maybe a third at most. Mafoo on a limited budget I'd go for a two or three way deal on something less than a 182.

That is exactly what i'd do.

For the same money you'd spend on that 182 you could do a three way partnership in a cherokee 180 or maybe a 180hp cardinal.

As for others not paying -

Form an LLC to own the plane. Get a separate bank account for the plane.

Lump the cost of the hangar, insurance and annual inspection into one monthly payment (or quarterly, whatever) for each member. Annual inspection is the cost of the actual inspection plus lubrication but not including replacing any wear items. So maybe $800

Have everyone pay in $25 per hour. Use this fund exclusively for maintenance. And keep what is left over for engine overhaul reserve. Cap it at maybe 20k, so that when you have that much saved up, no one pays the hourly anymore. If you have to dip in to it, everyone start paying the hourly again until its back to 20k.

Your average cost per year in maintenance on a plane like that would probably be somewhere around 3500. If you put 300 hours per year on the plane, you are putting away close to 5k per year for the major work items that are going to crop up every few years.

If you have a major repair and don't have the funds in the maintenance fund, everyone splits the difference evenly. But if you had a good pre-buy you shouldn't be needing any major items for the first 2-3 years at least so you'll have a nice cushion when that time comes.
 
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Or have each owner set up his own LLC to own his share. Each owner can then handle his business and personal usage and other tax and financial arrangements separately.

That is exactly what i'd do.

For the same money you'd spend on that 182 you could do a three way partnership in a cherokee 180 or maybe a 180hp cardinal.

As for others not paying -

Form an LLC to own the plane. Get a separate bank account for the plane.

Lump the cost of the hangar, insurance and annual inspection into one monthly payment (or quarterly, whatever) for each member. Annual inspection is the cost of the actual inspection plus lubrication but not including replacing any wear items. So maybe $800

Have everyone pay in $25 per hour. Use this fund exclusively for maintenance. And keep what is left over for engine overhaul reserve. Cap it at maybe 20k, so that when you have that much saved up, no one pays the hourly anymore. If you have to dip in to it, everyone start paying the hourly again until its back to 20k.

Your average cost per year in maintenance on a plane like that would probably be somewhere around 3500. If you put 300 hours per year on the plane, you are putting away close to 5k per year for the major work items that are going to crop up every few years.

If you have a major repair and don't have the funds in the maintenance fund, everyone splits the difference evenly. But if you had a good pre-buy you shouldn't be needing any major items for the first 2-3 years at least so you'll have a nice cushion when that time comes.
 
I've flown my R182 about 85 hours since June. I'm guessing before January I'll be at 100 or more. By the following June I'd predict around 150. The boyfriend has probably flown it 60 hours and wil be around 120 by June.
 
Here is a glasair taildragger for $31k. 170kts sounds good to me. From what I have read you would need a lot more transition training in something like this, even vs a rv6/7.

http://barnstormers.com/listing.php?id=723704

Interesting ad. Appears to be a smoking deal on a beautiful airplane that was nonetheless somehow built five years before the first model was reportedly test flown by the designer, and the engine model with which it is equipped is apparently top secret.
 
Interesting ad. Appears to be a smoking deal on a beautiful airplane that was nonetheless somehow built five years before the first model was reportedly test flown by the designer, and the engine model with which it is equipped is apparently top secret.

How so?

http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N1010M.html
Airframe Info
Model:GLASAIR SH-2
Year built:1984
Construction Number (C/N):119
Aircraft Type:Fixed wing single engine
Number of Seats:2
Number of Engines:1
Engine Type:Reciprocating
Engine Manufacturer and Model:Lycoming 0-320 SERIES
Certification Class:Experimental
Certification Issued:1999-12-06
Air Worthiness Test:1984-07-13
Last Action Taken:2006-07-18
http://www.glasair.org/Site/Members/Tech Corner/Articles/glasair_nomenclature.htm
1 thru 803 were used for the Glasair I (TD, FT, or RG)
(ED Note - Glasair I - was the designation for all kits delivered through about 1985. The way to ID these is they were approximately 2 ½” narrower in the fuselage (shoulder width) and 1” shorter in canopy height and the builders had to make their own canopy frames by cutting the frame out of the fuselage shells and reinforcing and finishing off the frame to be a good fit. Canopies were cut out as either an internal sliding canopy or gull wing style.)
 

My mistake, I assumed the SH-"2" and the model designator "II" were meant as the same "two" and wondered how he could have a II built five years before the designer. It appears to be a SH-2 Glasair I.

Maybe not listing the type of engine installed is a simple oversight. Or an intentional marketing strategy for an orphan. Either way you have to call to find out. Or look up the registration as you did though the registration records don't always accurately reflect the type of engine currently installed in an aircraft, after a swap.

For me, it's something you'd want to address in the first line or two of your ad for an experimental aircraft.
 
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If you have bought this plane than good luck. Buying in a partnership is one of the best ways for new owners to participate in aircraft ownership and share risk and spread the wealth of knowledge between you all.

I will answer as if you did not just in case or for other peoples benefit in the same circumstance.

Consider the fact that you are looking at different classes and sizes of aircraft is one indication that you have not firmly nailed down your own needs mission/purpose and selected a model or at least class. Probably should not proceed to the next step in deciding how to buy an airplane till 100% sure what fits you.

Just my personal opinion but I would stick with a type certificated aircraft and rule out any experimental and home built for now. This is for several reasons: First you really need to be a type specialist to not get burned buying in that market. However much risk their is to buying a C152 or Cherokee 150 it is double or more on non type aircraft. Ask any banker if you do not believe me. Second, you cannot rent out those aircraft if you need to get help with finances down the line and cannot sell due to poor economy. Third they will be harder to sell for the above two reasons.

As far as size/class of a/c
#1 rule comes to mind "buy for 80-90% of your mission, rent for the rest." If that is you and wife for up to 300 miles radius of your home for weekend trips that is a good place to start. Most any 100 mph plane will do this. That gets you all over the east coast for weekend trips and longer stay trips to just about anywhere.

If you want it IFR buy it already IFR. If you want it with IFR GPS than buy it that way as it is too expensive to upgrade later. However don't get crazy you will probably out grow this plane in a few short years of regular flying and want something newer, faster, slicker or what have you and then you can spend $$$ and get all the bells and whistles.

Depending on the size of yourself and your wife you can probably consider Cessna 150/152, Skipper, Tomahawk or A1A Grumman for the absolute cheapest flying fuel burning only 4-5 gph (if any burn mogas all the better) and some of the longest lasting engines 2400 hr TBO's in the aviation world. These are the cheapest to maintain of certificated aircraft, hold their resell value best, widely worked on at every A&P shop, broad support for parts and easy to find partners or renters later.

Next up the latter for close to the same purchase money you can buy a trainer 4 seat like a Cessna 172; Cherokee 150; Traveler burning 6-8 gph and still 2000 hr tbo's but have more useful load. Some other benefits and you can often take another couple along on your trips or have room for future kids, expands acceptance for future partners (who might weigh more than 150 lbs ea) and renters.

Once you know which plane is right for you then you can search for a club, partnership share. But then you are in a club of the right plane for you. And if you cannot find a club or partnership than you might still be better to go it alone. If it is a good deal for you to buy alone then it will be an even better deal if some time down the line you find a partner to join you.

Then advertise for up to 3 partners. I have owned 2 planes and invited 3 non equity partners to pay the expenses in exchange for their having near ownership privileged and not one time in 3 years have any two of us wanted it the same weekend, holiday or weekday. So while I own 100% of the current plane, I pay no annual or maintenance, insurance or hangar rent as the 3 non equity partners split those bills 3 ways. My contribution was opportunity cost on my investment in the plane. I first had this arrangement on a Cherokee I bought for $20k, I later did the same thing with a $69k Turbo Comanche. It helps to pay cash for the plane and have no payments.

Just another idea or way to fly cheaply.
 
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