Sanity check before I buy...

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Mafoo

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Mafoo
Ok, so the max I am going to sink into an aircraft, is 27K. That's what's siting in my checking account right now, and all I plan to spend.

December 1st I am slated to close on a 1/6th share of a Cessna 182RG. 8 people want in, so it's not an ethical issue if I back out.

The cost of the share is $16,500, with a $2,400 a year annual cost, and a $20 an hour dry maintenance fee. This covers all expenses.

In a perfect world, I would own something like a Vans RV6, however I can not afford one.

I like that the 182 has a nice useful load, and that I can go all the way up to comercial license in it if I want to, but I have a very specific reason for getting a PPL. So my wife and I can go on trips, long or short, on the weekends.

If I fly 200 hours a year (I know that's estimating a little high), that's ~ $8,400 difference each year in fuel savings alone for something like an RV6. I can only assume that savings will grow, as gas prices are only going to go up.

I have seen other small 2 seater experimental's on the market within my price range. Here is a few examples:

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_721374_Long+EZ.html
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_719558_Sonex+w_+new+paint+and+O_H.html

Those aircraft will meet my mission better then a 182RG (the second one being a fair amount slower). However where I run into concerns, is being the single owner and having something fail. Also the cost of insurance, hanger fees, and all the fixed costs I incur myself.

However if I fly 200 hours a year, owning that outright, saves me $10,800 a year in membership fees and gas.

My gut feel is the 182RG is the smarter purchase, but for some reason, I keep thinking I might be making a mistake.

It's just a lot of money, so I want to make damn sure I make the right choice. What do you all think? Am I crazy for even questioning it?
 
I love my 182RG. I'd be interested to see the specifics on the airplane you're buying so I can compare it to the purchase price of mine. I think mine was a tad high in the price but it had everything I was looking for and the guy took an offer that was like 15% lower than his asking. PM me if you want to.

It's a fantastic "go places" airplane. I burn 11 GPH running ROP on long XC's. I've never carried for people, but I can do 3 people (280lbs, 180 and 160) full fuel and bags and be just at gross. If we didn't fly full fuel (which we did because we were spending 5 hours in the air) you could easily fit that 4th person in there. If you're paying $20/hr for mx and/or splitting it like you said your mx issues won't be nearly as difficult as mine have been so far. But I attribute a lot of mine to the airplane only have 1400hrs on it since 1981 and now it's getting the wings flown off of it.. For training and 1 hour flights it's not the best airplane in the world because it does burn a good amount of fuel, but it balances out pretty well after about 2 hours in the air. I've owned mine since June and have about 80 hours in now.
 
If you decide later on that something else is right for you, you could always sell your share in the 182.
 
I own a newer T182T and love it. For me club membership was not a possibility. I have unpredictable hours, and thus cannot predetermine or plan when I can and cannot fly. Sole ownership is expensive. It costs me about conservatively about $130 an hour to fly, possibly more. So if you are looking at it from purely an economic point I would estimate what you think it would cost you per hour as a sole owner, versus a club member. I include in my number all my costs which include fixed costs(which I define as those which are not dependent on how many hours I fly the plane, such as hangar, insurance, annual, etc) and those that are not fixed(fuel, oil changes(which I do every 25 hours), maintainence, avionic fees, cleaning, overhaul sludge fund, repairs, etc). I also include probably not fair but I do, the costs for training(initially insurance experience required, then IFR, now commercial and ME training).

I do not think there is a wrong answer. For me the bottom line was sole ownership has the advantages of convenience, no conflicts with others who do not want to play nicely or think I am not playing nicely, and knowing I was the only one flying the plane. The disadvantage cost. Club membership is probably cheaper, but you may not have the plane when you want it, your use may be dependent on others keeping up on their end of the bargain, and remember weather happens and the plane may be caught someplace else when you were depending on having it available for your weekend escape, and it may not be as convenient.

Good luck,

Doug
 
Good point Dale.

Doug, The cost is close to a wash, because I would be owning a much less capable plane. The only costs that concern me, are the ones I don't know about. The engine needs an overhaul sooner then expected, for example.

Plus I would need to park it at an airport that's about 15 min farther from KLEB. KLEB hangers are $450 a month. If I get something with a low wing, I can park it at another airport in a shared hanger for $90 a month. That airport has cheeper gas as well (lowest in the area in fact).

So that's really my worry. Scared of being a single owner of a plane costing me more then I think it's going to cost.

Radna,

The R182RG is a 1978 with 3475TT; 880 SFOH; IFR, long range (80 gallon) fuel tanks, same owner for 21 years, always hangered, and has a 3 blade prop conversion. It has no damage history.

The avionics are not as new as we would like, but the plane has been at our local airport the entire time, and everyone knows it and the owner. It does have GPS and autopilot. It's a very well maintained aircraft. We are paying $82,000 for it.
 
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Price seems pretty fair to me. But I'm curious as to why everyone is paying $16,500.. that's a total of $99,000 for an $82,000 airplane? Plus the fixed of $2700/yr.. or do you mean to include that first year in your buy-in?


I have yet to meet someone who regularly flew a 182RG that regretted it. A friend of mine flew one many many hours and then his company switched to a 206.. he wishes he had the 182 back!
 
Z06_Mir said:
Price seems pretty fair to me. But I'm curious as to why everyone is paying $16,500.. that's a total of $99,000 for an $82,000 airplane? Plus the fixed of $2700/yr.. or do you mean to include that first year in your buy-in?


I have yet to meet someone who regularly flew a 182RG that regretted it. A friend of mine flew one many many hours and then his company switched to a 206.. he wishes he had the 182 back!
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The buy-in includes the first year of all our fixed costs, plus one of the partners has done a lot of work setting all this up (legal documents, setting up the LLC, dealing with the anual, bank accounts, insurance, getting the hanger, etc). We have pitched in a little to help him out for all his hard work.
 
Honestly? Too much airplane for your stated mission. Too many partners for your expected scheduling desires. Too many partners for your desired yearly hours. Too expensive to feed 200 hours worth of flying for a guy with a weekend warrior "2+bags" mission profile.

Nothing against the 182, but in this particular instance it sounds like you're attracted by the idea that you can see yourself zooming around in an 182RG without paying the piper. No free lunch I'm afraid. I think you'll be disappointed at how little flying you get done under such populous partnership.

I know some on here like to dismiss the costs of complex systems as a drop in the bucket, but when talking in the context of certified airplanes (read no skirting around parts costs) and long term ownership, swing gears and those 2 extra cylinders will eat your budget alive. The only way to appease your concerns for unexpected high bill maintenance is to NOT have the system in the aircraft in the first place, which is how I've gone about my flying (Piper Warrior II). About the only added maintenance cost I'm willing to entertain these days is a constant speed prop, as my long distance mission draws to an end and I've put a premium on cabin size, ingress/egress comfort and climb rate when looking at replacements for the warrior. After all the salivating I've done researching everything from RVs to Mooneys and everything above and in between, my 90% mission brings me back to an airplane that will be more of a lateral move from the warrior than a bona fide upgrade, but at least I'll be able to have access to the airplane when I need it and I'll be able to afford to put gas on it AND repair it. And my mission set is identical to yours.

I think you're making a mistake on this one. Not in terms of insulating yourself from the solo ownership experience, that's a smart move, but in terms of overall utility. I don't think it's a good fit for what you're attempting to do and you're either going to leave money on the table (which you can't afford already) or you'll grow frustrated for how much you're NOT flying to your mission's heart content.

See if you can find a smaller partnership for a 180HP Cessna/Piper/Grumman, I think that's your sweet spot. Seeing as how you can't afford it solo yet, it would be a good spot for a partnership exercise. But a 182RG six ways is not the way to go IMO. Good luck!
 
I'd say you need to step back and ponder a bit. The simple fact that you're considering dropping twenty large on a 182RG share and in the same sentence wondering if you should maybe buy a Long-E-Z instead is, to put it bluntly, all over the map.

For one thing, has your partner ever ridden in the back seat of a Long-E-Z? Nothing to see there but the back of the pilot's head and blue sky. She might not like it much.
 
... sitting in my checking account right now ...
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Burning a hole in your pocket? That's what it kind of sounds like.

... $2,400 a year annual cost, and a $20 an hour dry maintenance fee. This covers all expenses.
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Actually not. This is only a guess as to what the expenses are. Since this is a new group and new airplane, it is really a wild guess.

You will end up paying the actual expenses, which may or may not be what are estimated. If the engine fails the day after the group is formed, each of you will be writing a $4,000 plus check. Are you ready for that?

Usually these things are set up so the dues (i.e., $2,400) pays the fixed expenses and the dry rate pays the variable expenses. $20 is not enough to cover variable expenses --- consider that just the engine is probably north of $12.50/hour. OTOH, 6x$2,400 sounds like a lot of money for fixed expenses (hangar, insurance, Jepp database, utilities, etc.). So some of that will go to cover variable expenses. The effect is that (if the expense estimate is accurate) the partners who fly more will be subsidized by the partners who fly less. Probably by $15-30/hour. Is that OK with you?

... So my wife and I can go on trips, long or short, on the weekends.
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Well, maybe. Six guys in the deal sort of points to your getting 8 weekends a year including the winter ones where you may not want to go anywhere. What are the scheduling rules? If someone has the bird for 1/2 hour on Saturday, does a weekend trip preempt or is the weekend trip blocked? If the latter, you may get very few weekend trips. How about minimum billing? Will you have to pay for three hours flying for every day you have the airplane? All this kind of stuff should be written down, negotiated, and finalized before you pull the trigger.

All that said, an RG is a great airplane and clubs are a great way to go. But with the money savings comes constraints and obligations. IMHO you are not really considering them thoroughly enough at this point. It may be a wonderful deal or it may be the biggest mistake of your life. From a distance it's hard to tell. Be careful.
 
Thanks guys.

As for stepping back... I have been putting a lot of thought into it. In the end, I think the rub is I either own this share, or I own nothing.

I agree it's not the perfect plane for my mission, but to fly it will cost around $90-$100 an hour. Renting here is $150 an hour (and if I take it for the day, a 4 hour minimum).

Two of the partners aren't even pilots. One is a VP who like me, mostly wants it on weekend, but he travels so much, he is almost never in town (that cold change).

In the end I think I can sell it pretty quickly if I want to walk away. It's the only game in town. I want to own a plane, and I think this is a better deal if I fly a lot then not owning a plane.

I just wish I had 20 more grand lying around :p
 
I would hazard a guess that, when it comes down to it, you will put nowhere near 200 hours of personal flying on any airplane you buy.

Yes, some people do. But in my experience after owning all or part of 5 airplanes, even 100 hours a year is A LOT of personal flying. If you have a business purpose and can use it that way, things change, of course. Tom will probably back me up on this: The average individual-owned airplane probably flies about 40 hours a year.

I suggest you take another hard look at HOW you plan to use the airplane before you go in either direction. And don't just assume you'll make that trip to wherever twice a month or every weekend for an indefinite time. Lots and lots of people THINK they'll fly X hours a year, but when it comes down to it real life gets in the way and there simply isn't time to do all that flitting about, even if there is the money for it.

And when it comes to the money end, well, I know people who have spent $1,000 an hour to fly a Cub for a few years.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I would hazard a guess that, when it comes down to it, you will put nowhere near 200 hours of personal flying on any airplane you buy.

Yes, some people do. But in my experience after owning all or part of 5 airplanes, even 100 hours a year is A LOT of personal flying. If you have a business purpose and can use it that way, things change, of course. Tom will probably back me up on this: The average individual-owned airplane probably flies about 40 hours a year.

I suggest you take another hard look at HOW you plan to use the airplane before you go in either direction. And don't just assume you'll make that trip to wherever twice a month or every weekend for an indefinite time. Lots and lots of people THINK they'll fly X hours a year, but when it comes down to it real life gets in the way and there simply isn't time to do all that flitting about, even if there is the money for it.

And when it comes to the money end, well, I know people who have spent $1,000 an hour to fly a Cub for a few years.
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Just to second this -- my yearly flight time in the Apache has been 40 hours per year right on the nose two years running.
 
If you expect to fly 200 hours a year in an 8-way partnership, you'd better make sure going in that your partners don't fly much at all, or at least not when you expect to fly. Otherwise, you're going to have serious ongoing scheduling conflicts. Going on weekend trips on short notices may be almost impossible. Weekends and holidays will likely be the worst, especially holiday weekends. Some groups like this book weeks ahead, especially for holidays and weekends where there may be a rotating schedule of who can take the plane. You need to talk this over with the current partners and take a good look at about a year's worth of scheduling data to see just how often the plane is likely to be available and on how much notice.
 
Yea. The only reason I am guessing it would be higher, is the purpose for getting a PPL is not for fun, but so my wife and I can go places.

We go places just about every weekend. We keep them to within an hour or so drive however.

So my plan is to just keep doing what we are doing, however do it in a plane, and increase the radius of places we can go in the same amount of time.

But even if we can fly it every weekend, and we go an hour and a half away, it's only 156 hours. 200 is high.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you expect to fly 200 hours a year in an 8-way partnership, you'd better make sure going in that your partners don't fly much at all, or at least not when you expect to fly. Otherwise, you're going to have serious ongoing scheduling conflicts. Going on weekend trips on short notices may be almost impossible. Weekends and holidays will likely be the worst, especially holiday weekends. Some groups like this book weeks ahead, especially for holidays and weekends where there may be a rotating schedule of who can take the plane. You need to talk this over with the current partners and take a good look at about a year's worth of scheduling data to see just how often the plane is likely to be available and on how much notice.
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We have in place a rotating priority list for conflicts. One of the owners also owns the flight school, so he will always take a school plane if he is in conflict (and one is available), and has told us we can take one at cost if we schedule over top of each other (again, provided one is not booked).

Two of the partners really just want to get there CFI II and Comercial license, and are buying this so they can. There is no retractable landing gear plane around here to learn in.

Not sure how much they will fly.

oh, and it's 6 way, not 8. 8 people want in, but we are only going to start with 6 slots. We have talked about trying to find 4 more, and getting another 182RG, and pooling 12 owners across 2 planes. Make it kind of a club hybrid sort of thing.
 
Mafoo said:
So my plan is to just keep doing what we are doing, however do it in a plane, and increase the radius of places we can go in the same amount of time.

But even if we can fly it every weekend, and we go an hour and a half away, it's only 156 hours. 200 is high.
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Now factor in times when you have icing conditions, ceilings below minimums, maintenance downtime, fronts with thunderstorms, something else to do that weekend, a chosen destination where driving makes more sense. And in the case of a partnership, when other people have the airplane booked.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Now factor in times when you have icing conditions, ceilings below minimums, maintenance downtime, fronts with thunderstorms, something else to do that weekend, a chosen destination where driving makes more sense. And in the case of a partnership, when other people have the airplane booked.
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Yea.

But even if you cut that in half, It's still over 75 hours a year.

And being things like Montreal is less then an hour away, and long island is an hour, I don't see why when their are not scheduling conflicts, we don't do two trips in the same weekend.

Saturday in Montreal, Sunday at Hampton Beach.

I realize I am like everyone else. 100% confident I will fly more then 40 hours a year, and most likely will get into it and realize I was wrong, but I guess, like with all of you, this is one of those things you only learn by doing it, and see how it works out :)
 
Mafoo said:
We have in place a rotating priority list for conflicts. One of the owners also owns the flight school, so he will always take a school plane if he is in conflict (and one is available), and has told us we can take one at cost if we schedule over top of each other (again, provided one is not booked).
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Nice deal. Now look at the school schedule along with the partnership schedule to see how often a school plane is available for a weekend trip when the partnership plane is in use. I doubt they'll let you take a school plane all weekend for only 3 hours flying if they have a "real" customer scheduled even for one flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nice deal. Now look at the school schedule along with the partnership schedule to see how often a school plane is available for a weekend trip when the partnership plane is in use. I doubt they'll let you take a school plane all weekend for only 3 hours flying if they have a "real" customer scheduled even for one flight.
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Correct. However I know how often the flight school plane is booked, as I am the one always booking it. This weekend, I booked it for 4 hours yesterday, and was the only one who flew it.

That's the other problem. I worry the flight school will close down, as they have very few students, and are losing money. If that happens before I finish, and I don't have a plane, not sure what I will do.
 
If you go in this deal it will take some time for scheduling homeostasis to work in your favor. Are you patient enough?

I got in my deal, because the airplane sits a lot, scheduling is fairly easy, I've done trips on a whim. I haven't flown nearly as much as I thought I would, so I'm kinda glad I don't own solo right now.

I think the numbers for the RG look good except there's too much missing ($17,000 worth of missing).

At your current rate, how long will it take for you to break even versus renting?
 
Jaybird180 said:
At your current rate, how long will it take for you to break even versus renting?
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That's hard to say. The only way to really know that number, is to know how much I can sell the share for when I am done with it.

The monthly cost will be $200. When I rent, I pay about $60 an hour more then the cost to fly this. So as long as I fly 3.5 hours a month, I break even.

As you pointed out, we have an engine that most likely will need repaire before we have enough reserve to pay for it. We chose to gamble here, and collect for the engine when the time comes, as apposed to charge more per hour to make it up.

The poorest person in this deal is me. Everyone else is an exec somewhere, or a lawyer. So I am not worried about the extra cost when it happens.

However it does then factor into your question... when will I break even?

Unless I just stop flying, I think the share is going to be cheeper, just depends on how much cheeper.

Also, I get to say I own a plane :). That's worth something.
 
An appraisal includes a review of the logs. My worksheet includes a column for annual use. The typical trend is that usage declines over time, and that new owners fly more than existing owners.

In a co-ownership, a high percentage of the usage is typically flown by a small percentage of the owners. In many (I think most) of such arrangements, a common pattern emerges in which many of the older and/or inactive owners seldom fly but pay regularly and continue with their ownership position. Few of the planes fly more than 300 hours per year, due to the issues that Ron, Ken and others have mentioned.

156 hours per year means 13 hours per month or 3 hours per week. That number might be sustainable for a year, but long-term ain't happening.
 
I've made 2 aircraft purchases to date, when I finally found the plane(s) I wanted to purchase, numbers agreed on and inspections passed, I couldn't get the check signed fast enough.

You going to be satisfied dumping that much cash into something you're going to be 1/6 owner in? Not saying it's a bad deal, but is it what YOU want?
 
I'm in a 50% partnership and it works out great. I would not, however, want any more partners than that. Maybe a third at most. Mafoo on a limited budget I'd go for a two or three way deal on something less than a 182.
 
Mafoo said:
Also, I get to say I own a plane :). That's worth something.
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Isn't there a flying club around there? I'm 1/30 owner of 3 planes technically in my club. I'm glad I don't own one. I don't fly enough or have enough places to go. Especially now that it's getting cold. I did my cold weather flying during my PPL training. brrrr! So you're going to finish up in a RG plane for a PPL and get a complex endorsement at the same time cool deal.

Hope it works out for you. Hope you're not buying too much airplane as you say you are the "poor" person in the group.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm in a 50% partnership and it works out great. I would not, however, want any more partners than that. Maybe a third at most. Mafoo on a limited budget I'd go for a two or three way deal on something less than a 182.
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Yea, that would be ideal, however there is no other option, and I don't know enough to feel comfortable being the one to put the share together.

One other partner in an RV6 would be perfect.
 
saracelica said:
Isn't there a flying club around there? I'm 1/30 owner of 3 planes technically in my club. I'm glad I don't own one. I don't fly enough or have enough places to go. Especially now that it's getting cold. I did my cold weather flying during my PPL training. brrrr! So you're going to finish up in a RG plane for a PPL and get a complex endorsement at the same time cool deal.

Hope it works out for you. Hope you're not buying too much airplane as you say you are the "poor" person in the group.
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No clubs out here. I fly out of KLEB. Slim pickings unless I want to drive an hour.
 
I will add another thing to the pot.

You 'only have $20k in the bank.'

Unless you couch surf or do not spend money where you are going, the airplane, gas, and maintenance is only one part of the financial puzzle.

I am just commenting because I include these the cost of hotels, food, rental cars/taxis, and entertainment when I am trying to budget.
 
Mafoo said:
Yea, that would be ideal, however there is no other option, and I don't know enough to feel comfortable being the one to put the share together.

One other partner in an RV6 would be perfect.
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8 people want in six slots, why not be one of the two left out and see if one of the other 7 wanna go in on a RV6?
 
I missed why a Cherokee 140 or similar wouldn't satisfy your requirements.
 
My wife's first flight was in a Supercub before we were married. She made it pretty clear that the tandem seating looking at the back of my head wouldn't be of interest in the future. She later said the same about riding on the back of a motorcycle. She was a willing passenger in various Cessnas, Comanches and Bonanazas and Mooneys for many years. Just sayin'.
bartmc said:
8 people want in six slots, why not be one of the two left out and see if one of the other 7 wanna go in on a RV6?
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The whole partnership thing hasn't seemed that attractive to me. I kind of like doing what I want to do or not doing anything at all. I've had a decent rental arrangement for the last couple years so I've stuck to that.

I did buy the Flybaby simply because there isn't anything like it I can rent and it's pretty cheap to operate per hour. Was it my dream airplane? No, not really. But it's my airplane. I'll make some sacrifices if it means something is solely mine.
 
For a family of 4 the options are fewer. Renting or buying a fractional piece were the only viable choices for us.

jesse said:
The whole partnership thing hasn't seemed that attractive to me. I kind of like doing what I want to do or not doing anything at all. I've had a decent rental arrangement for the last couple years so I've stuck to that.

I did buy the Flybaby simply because there isn't anything like it I can rent and it's pretty cheap to operate per hour. Was it my dream airplane? No, not really. But it's my airplane. I'll make some sacrifices if it means something is solely mine.
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wabower said:
My wife's first flight was in a Supercub before we were married. She made it pretty clear that the tandem seating looking at the back of my head wouldn't be of interest in the future. She later said the same about riding on the back of a motorcycle. She was a willing passenger in various Cessnas, Comanches and Bonanazas and Mooneys for many years. Just sayin'.
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he said the RV was the object of his desires, certainly isn't mine.
 
Mafoo said:
We chose to gamble here, and collect for the engine when the time comes, as apposed to charge more per hour to make it up.

The poorest person in this deal is me. Everyone else is an exec somewhere, or a lawyer. So I am not worried about the extra cost when it happens.
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I would not count on their generosity to foot the bill of an overhaul and let you get off not paying anything, especially if you end up flying 200 hrs a year.

Also, I would be quite concerned about any partnership, where the response to knowing the storm is about to come, is to put your collective head in the sand and deal with it when it gets there. To me that is asking for trouble, lots of fights, and possibly lawyers. If I was entering this patnership, I would want to have the price of the overhaul included in the hourly charde, so when it does come there is money in the bank to pay for it. Otherwise, I would find some other way to feed your habit.

just my two cents.

Doug
 
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