Salvage value, Taylorcraft?

[AuntPeggy]

So I just had a conversation something like this:

"Now that he's gone, do you have any idea what Dad's old plane is worth?"
"What year is it?"
"Really old."
"Do you have the logbooks."
"After he died, we cleaned the house and hangar and threw out anything with no value."
"Aircraft logbooks?"
"Gone."
"sigh, probably were worth about $15,000 at minimum. Who did the maintenance?"
"Dad."

So, I am wondering, assuming the aircraft is physically airworthy, what would it take to get it legally airworthy? If not, does it have any salvage value? Mind you, I haven't seen the plane.

 

[dmccormack]

Wow -- tossed the logbooks?

Yikes

 

[bsdunek]

I can't believe it doesn't have value, but, of course, far less without the log books. See the cover of the May Vintage Airplane magazine (an EAA publication) for one beautiful Taylorcraft.
A IA would have to do a really complete inspection, including making all AD's have been complied with. Also, if there's any chance of restoration, it's a shame to let an old bird be destroyed.

 

[tonycondon]

wait until they're ready to give it away.

 

[wabower]

I can't believe it doesn't have value, but, of course, far less without the log books. See the cover of the May Vintage Airplane magazine (an EAA publication) for one beautiful Taylorcraft.
A IA would have to do a really complete inspection, including making all AD's have been complied with. Also, if there's any chance of restoration without spending much more time and money than it would ever be worth, it's a shame to let an old bird be destroyed.

As caveated.

 

[dmccormack]

A IA would have to do a really complete inspection, including making all AD's have been complied with. Also, if there's any chance of restoration, it's a shame to let an old bird be destroyed.

Agreed -- but restoring these old birds is always a labor of love -- it's rarely a moneymaking proposition.


(Cue the obligatory post about making millions doing aircraft restoration...)

 

[ScottM]

Sounds like a candidate to a GA aircraft museum. Maybe the one at Sun N'Fun would be interested?

 

[dmccormack]

There's gotta be someone out there that's looking for a T-craft project.

barnstormers.com

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

There's gotta be someone out there that's looking for a T-craft project.

barnstormers.com

Based on what I have been seeing, asking prices on nice T-crafts seem to run in the mid 20's. Airworthy but rough mid teens. Not airworthy, no logs? I have no idea.

 

[dmccormack]

Based on what I have been seeing, asking prices on nice T-crafts seem to run in the mid 20's. Airworthy but rough mid teens. Not airworthy, no logs? I have no idea.

Yep -- 20k seems the cutoff for flyable, well-maintained older taildraggers. Less than that equals other issues (lack of logs, high time engine, old paint/fabric, etc)

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Should be a bargain for someone who has an appropriate data plate and logbooks to go with it.

As it is, a cursory rebuild of the logbooks can be done via the FAA database. Granted, it wouldn't be complete and at the very minimum a thorough inspection, including ALL the AD's would need to be done. But if the plane is otherwise in good shape, it has value to SOMEONE.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

The highest yield would be if someone put it in their garage, tore it down, cataloged and photographed the parts, then got to work on ebay.
It would be the most work and take the longest (years) but yield the most $ for someone who does not place a price on their free time.
Unless you can find a sucker who thinks 'with a little work it could fly again' and sell it well above market value.
Sadly, such a/c are plentiful.

 

[AuntPeggy]

So, if someone could be found for taking on the task/burden/joy of making this airplane legal again, what would be a fair asking price?

Also, I'm thinking you could "sell" the engine core back to the manufacturer for a couple of thousand dollars. What else?

 

[dmccormack]

Also, I'm thinking you could "sell" the engine core back to the manufacturer for a couple of thousand dollars. What else?

What type engine?

 

[kyleb]

Flyable (current annual) and rough, it is probably worth $12-15k. A complete project w/o logs, but with no damage, good (no prop strike) motor, struts, and spars is probably $8 - $10k. How quickly the owner wants to move it will determine the actual price.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

So, if someone could be found for taking on the task/burden/joy of making this airplane legal again, what would be a fair asking price?

Also, I'm thinking you could "sell" the engine core back to the manufacturer for a couple of thousand dollars. What else?

When was the last annual? Any chance to get records from the AI? I would think that would be better than nothing.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Let's say it needs a total refurb and you provide much of the labor. Go ahead and tweak the numbers to suit your thoughts on it, or if we get specifics on this airplane, but many turn out like this:

Purchase price $10000
Engine OH $10000
Cover and paint $5000
Interior $1000
Radios $5000
Instruments $2000
Sundries $2000

After $35K and 2 years it is ready to fly and is worth about what you put into it.....if the market doesn't change.

Or you could spend $35K; go flying now. And not spend 2 years in the shop. Shop time is cool, but is the goal to have fun with tools or to get out in the wind and sun? Different for everybody.

 

[Tom-D]

So I just had a conversation something like this:

"Now that he's gone, do you have any idea what Dad's old plane is worth?"
"What year is it?"
"Really old."
"Do you have the logbooks."
"After he died, we cleaned the house and hangar and threw out anything with no value."
"Aircraft logbooks?"
"Gone."
"sigh, probably were worth about $15,000 at minimum. Who did the maintenance?"
"Dad."

So, I am wondering, assuming the aircraft is physically airworthy, what would it take to get it legally airworthy? If not, does it have any salvage value? Mind you, I haven't seen the plane.

What model Taylor Craft is it? some of these old birds are worth a fortune.

new log books for the engine and aircraft are
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/logs_prop.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/logs_ac3.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/logs_engine.php

plus the 2 hours labor to enter the proper entries for AD compliance on:

AD 2008-09-18 wing struts
AD 87-03-08 oil pressure gauge
AD 47-13-02 fuel hose

and you will have a legal flyable aircraft with the following entry in both engine and airframe books

First entry
These logs were reconstructed using FAA records and prior history, Total airframe and engine times are unknown as of 2010- ? (if it has a recording tach enter the numbers)

Second entry in the aircraft log:
I have inspected this aircraft IAW 43-D and found it to be in an airworthy condition.

total cost to me to get it flying is the maintenance required and an annual.

You should get the history records from OKC on CD. but it is not mandatory.

the biggest problem may be getting the title transfered, if the legal owner is dead, there must be a person designated in writing to sign off the bill of sale. Executor of the will etc. That is a biggy and may take time to get settled, maybe not.

 

[Tom-D]

OBTW what's the asking price? Where is it?

 

[dmccormack]

Let's say it needs a total refurb and you provide much of the labor. Go ahead and tweak the numbers to suit your thoughts on it, or if we get specifics on this airplane, but many turn out like this:

Purchase price $10000
Engine OH $10000
Cover and paint $5000
Interior $1000
Radios $5000
Instruments $2000
Sundries $2000

After $35K and 2 years it is ready to fly and is worth about what you put into it.....if the market doesn't change.

Or you could spend $35K; go flying now. And not spend 2 years in the shop. Shop time is cool, but is the goal to have fun with tools or to get out in the wind and sun? Different for everybody.

$5k for radios??
$10k for an A-65 OH???

The rest of the estimates are on par -- but this is a T-craft, right?

 

[Henning]

It depends on what model it is as to what it's worth. They're pretty simple planes so it shouldn't cost too much for an IA to come and do an annual on it, he'll have to research and inspect all the A/Ds for compliance and a new W&B, that's really all it "needs" to get it flying. There will be some value loss to not having logs, but probably the greatest loss in value is not having an engine time, so it will have to be valued as a run out.

 

[infotango]

What type of Taylorcraft, what year?
Depending on the price, I may be interested. Is it in the NY area?

 

[weirdjim]

Peggy ... your mcmath email addy keeps bouncing stuff I'm trying to send you. Give me a shout jweir43 at gmail period com and I'll respond. Regarding Kitplanes.

Jim

 

[EdFred]

You could always donate it to a 501(c)(3) that is looking for a vintage aircraft to display and take the tax write off. I might even know one...

 

[AuntPeggy]

Thanks.

He asked, I told him what you all said. I'm giving him some space -- and time -- now.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Looks like he has made a decision. He is looking for a CFI so he can learn to fly. And a mechanic so that the airplane can fly.

 

[BiffJ]

As a former taylorcraft owner and an A&P mechanic here's my take. Its it been sitting for a long time there are a multitude of problems to look for. Everything is model dependent too.....BC12 of some type (1941-1947) , F19- F22 etc. It helps to know the model as there are many different requirement for inspection.
Rust in the engine is likely and is a big problem not easily detected without pulling a cylinder or two. Most of the early planes (up to 47) had Continental or Lycoming 65HP engines. Overhaul is not too bad on them but some parts are becoming hard to find. Later planes were upgraded to C-85 or C90 which is getting more pricey. The F19 has a Continental O-200, the F22 has a Lycoming O-235.
There is a strut AD as noted earlier and sitting is a very bad thing for the struts. They tend to collect moisture due to temp changes and it all collects at the bottom where rust decays the struts into useless ornaments.
Moisture collects in the fuel tanks and creates corrosion....old fuel turns to varnish and plugs up fuel lines, gascolators and carbs.
The wing spars are wood in the earlier planes, I think the F22 is metal but they didn't come out til the late 80's so its likely not an F22. Wood wing spars are great but they tend to expand and contract depending on humidity which loosens fittings and hardware. That makes the ailerons and other parts attached to the spars get loose. Flying with your ailerons flapping around is bad for flutter and wear on the bolt holes as well.
The landing gear is sprung with Bungees which decay over time whether used or not. They need to be checked. Hopefully the gear has safety cables to prevent the gear from completely collapsing if the bungees break. Lots of damage is possible even just sitting when they break with no safety cables.
The plane is fabric covered and the fabric decays over time like the bungees. The newer Dacrons are much stronger than the regs require for a plane of this speed range but it does get old. There is a lot of wood in the fuselage used for formers so more area for decay and inspection.

The point of all this is to show that there are hours of inspection and knowledge needed just to check out this basic stuff. On top of that is all the work required to check AD's (not a lot on the T-cart), do normal annual paperwork and research and then of course the basic inspection. There will likely be a number of parts requiring replacement like fuel lines and gaskets. Sitting is not good for planes and engines. This all means that the cost for that first annual is probably going to be pretty high and that the value of the plane is probably lower than what a nice flying plane would bring. The loss of the logbooks makes the market for sales smaller because a lot of buyers won't buy a plane with replacement logs. Its legal and it does happen but it raises questions for buyers especially when there are planes available and no buyers.
If nice planes are selling for $15-20K he's probably looking at $8-10K as is if it doesn't need recover. If the covering needs to be redone its probably a $4-6K plane. If he wants to get his license and learn to fly he is probably looking at a $2-5K annual in any case....

Hope he is able to do what makes him happy.

Good luck
Frank

 

[AuntPeggy]

Sigh. That took away all the romance. It is a BC12-D.

 

[Tom-D]

Sigh. That took away all the romance. It is a BC12-D.

Still a nice old aircraft and very fun to fly, if you are small.

 

[RyanShort1]

If nice planes are selling for $15-20K he's probably looking at $8-10K as is if it doesn't need recover. If the covering needs to be redone its probably a $4-6K plane. If he wants to get his license and learn to fly he is probably looking at a $2-5K annual in any case....

Hope he is able to do what makes him happy.

Good luck
Frank

I wish I could find one of those 4-6K planes... I'd really like to get an efficient taildragger.

Ryan

 

[dmccormack]

I wish I could find one of those 4-6K planes... I'd really like to get an efficient taildragger.

Ryan

I haven't seen anything under $10k that are in flyable condition.

Champs and Cubs have a price premium due to LSA status and cachet.

Mine is a 1940 65 hp Lycoming o-145. I use 3.5 gph though I plan for 4.

Top OH will be around $2400. Complete OH is 5k.

 

[BiffJ]

I occasionally see taylorcraft "kits" on trade-a-plane or other sites needing covering or rebuilding priced as I pointed out....$4-6K. Its expensive and time consuming to recover a plane. If the current cover won't punch or pass inspection its a big hit to the price. Also remember that trade-a-plane and all the other sale boards/sites don't always reflect the whole markets prices. There are still those who don't use the internet and a lot of planes and parts change hands in person instead of online. Check out airports and look for bulletin boards, talk to the locals at the airport when you stop in for fuel or a pop. Its surprising how many planes are sitting in hangers decaying with owners who don't really want them. Some are like the original posters situation....owner died and family doesn't know what to do. I'm not suggesting ripping off some poor little old lady by offering her $5K for her husbands million dollar spartan executive but it is possible to find a plane for less money if you look for one thats not listed but maybe really needs to be sold. You get a better price and the owners gets rid of something that was not an asset to them....

Hope that helps clarify.


As a note here, the Taylorcraft is a great airplane and I really miss mine. I soloed in a 1941 L2 tandem seater. I took my check ride in an F19 and owned a 1941 BC12-65. They were all great airplanes worth flying. I think that learning to fly in one of these old birds will teach a pilot a lot of things that a nosewheeler won't. If the current owner the original poster was talking about wants to fly the plane it is a lot better than letting it rot in the hanger unloved. I hope that if they don't want to fly it they will sell it to someone who'll take care of it.....


Frank

 

[RyanShort1]

I haven't seen anything under $10k that are in flyable condition.

Champs and Cubs have a price premium due to LSA status and cachet.

Mine is a 1940 65 hp Lycoming o-145. I use 3.5 gph though I plan for 4.

Top OH will be around $2400. Complete OH is 5k.

A local non-LSA Champ in flying condition recently sold to a friend for about 10K...

Ryan

 

[dmccormack]

A local non-LSA Champ in flying condition recently sold to a friend for about 10K...

Ryan

There ya go -- it's not "under 10k"

 

[Tom-D]

I occasionally see taylorcraft "kits" on trade-a-plane or other sites needing covering or rebuilding priced as I pointed out....$4-6K. Its expensive and time consuming to recover a plane. If the current cover won't punch or pass inspection its a big hit to the price. Frank

There is a lot of myth and OWTs in that statement.

for starters, when in years past aircraft were being covered using cotton and dope it did require many hours of labor to get the job done. simply because of the dwell time to dry the fabric and each coat of the 12 coat dope system.

With the new systems this is no longer true, the Airtech system drys in 15 minutes to sanding each coat of a 3 coat application.

The Stewarts system is a water born system that does not stink, and can be applied in 1 day. to top coat, and dried over night and flown.

the punch test you mentioned is only for cotton and dope systems, it does not apply to any Ceconite system.

I recovered my Fairchild fuselage in 1 day after it was ready. each wing took 3 days to recover and stitch each rib.

 

[BiffJ]

There is a lot of myth and OWTs in that statement.

for starters, when in years past aircraft were being covered using cotton and dope it did require many hours of labor to get the job done. simply because of the dwell time to dry the fabric and each coat of the 12 coat dope system.

With the new systems this is no longer true, the Airtech system drys in 15 minutes to sanding each coat of a 3 coat application.

The Stewarts system is a water born system that does not stink, and can be applied in 1 day. to top coat, and dried over night and flown.

the punch test you mentioned is only for cotton and dope systems, it does not apply to any Ceconite system.

I recovered my Fairchild fuselage in 1 day after it was ready. each wing took 3 days to recover and stitch each rib.

You are probably right about new systems but since the aircraft in question has been around for a while the new systems are pretty unlikely to have been used. It will still need to be checked or punched. As for simple one day recover jobs it may be fine to cover in one day and fly the next but all the work to get the frames ready for cover is more than a one day job. In any case don't take my word for it....go out and look for yourself.

Frank

 

[Tom-D]

You are probably right about new systems but since the aircraft in question has been around for a while the new systems are pretty unlikely to have been used. It will still need to be checked or punched. As for simple one day recover jobs it may be fine to cover in one day and fly the next but all the work to get the frames ready for cover is more than a one day job. In any case don't take my word for it....go out and look for yourself.

Frank

The Ceconite manual is dated 1959. polyfiber/Stiitz/and razor back have been around a long time too.

You never know what's on, until you take a look. It would be a very old purest that put cotton on in the past 30 years. that's 1980 or after. had it been cotton prior to that, I bet it was replaced with Ceconite. If it is Dope over ceconite, RJ it (if it needs it), and go fly

AS far as repairing structure, that will depend upon what you find wrong. my 24 took 7 years to get ready to recover.

but a work order job won't take that long.

I recovered this in two weeks