Safety pilot question

Iceman

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Chris
I’ve had a question for quite some time that receives a different answer every time I ask it. However, it appears that there are many people on this forum that know what is going on.



My question is I have a pp license and am current in a 152. I’ve been told that I can be a safety pilot while the IFR rated pilot is under the hood. My question is can I log the time if the plane we are using is a retractable high-performance plane? Can I have that high performance retract time in my log book even though I’m not rated for either?



Thanks Guy’s and Gal’s
 
Iceman said:
My question is I have a pp license and am current in a 152. I’ve been told that I can be a safety pilot while the IFR rated pilot is under the hood. My question is can I log the time if the plane we are using is a retractable high-performance plane? Can I have that high performance retract time in my log book even though I’m not rated for either?
Thanks Guy’s and Gal’s
The folowing answer presumes you are in VMC:

Chris, the problem is that if you're safety pilot, what you are trying to log is not "PIC-sole manipulator" but is Legal PIC. You can log PIC-manipulator, contrary to the original intent of the FAA (Counsel General opinion) but you can't be legal PIC in this aircraft.

Separate in your mind, "logging PIC for an aircraft type in which you are rated and medically/otherwise current" and legally being PIC for whatever happens aboard the ship- for that you need the endorsement.

I'ts complicated, allright, but has its own logic.
 
Thanks for the quick answer Bruce. I still a little confused. I understand that I'm am not the true PIC.

Let me put it this way. If over the next couple of years I log 50 hours as a safety pilot in a particular high performance retract plane and then obtain my high performance retract ratings is it legal to put down those hours when applying for insurance on a particular plane?

Thanks again
 
Here is a pretty good PDF done by troy Whistman on a flow chart for logging time.
 
I'm thinking - no.

You aren't eligible for PIC time in a high perf complex without the endorsements. Therefore, you can't log the time as PIC when you are safety pilot.

If you can't log it, you probably can't count it for insurance but that depends on the insurance company. Are they looking for just time, dual + PIC, or PIC?
 
Think of it this way. You can only log PIC if you are either
a) flying the plane ("sole manipulator")
b) alone
c) serving as safety pilot AND actually acting as PIC for the flight

The third one is the tricky one. In your case, you are serving as safety pilot (and you are qualified to do so because you're rated in category and class), but you can't actually act as PIC because in order to do that, you'd need the high performance endorsement.

Your buddy (with the endorsement) has to be the one taking the final responsibility for all stuff, not you. So you fulfill neither a) nor b) nor c).

I think you can log SIC for your trouble as safety pilot, but this I'm not sure about.

Iceman said:
If over the next couple of years I log 50 hours as a safety pilot in a particular high performance retract plane and then obtain my high performance retract ratings is it legal to put down those hours when applying for insurance on a particular plane?
You can't retroactively log them as PIC time, no! Because you weren't PIC at the time. Those aren't really 50 hours "obtained". Just 50 hours "experienced". :)

--Kath
 
Iceman said:
I’ve had a question for quite some time that receives a different answer every time I ask it. However, it appears that there are many people on this forum that know what is going on.

My question is I have a pp license and am current in a 152. I’ve been told that I can be a safety pilot while the IFR rated pilot is under the hood. My question is can I log the time if the plane we are using is a retractable high-performance plane? Can I have that high performance retract time in my log book even though I’m not rated for either?

Thanks Guy’s and Gal’s

You cannot log the time for anything useful. In a simplified explanation you can log PIC one of 2 ways. By meeting the sole manipualtor requirement OR by being the actual acting PIC in a plane requiring more then one crewmember.

As described, as safety pilot, you will not be manipulating the controls so that option is out for logging PIC.

In order to act as PIC you must meet all the requirements to act as PIC including endorsements etc. You don't have them so you cannot act as PIC and therefore cannot log it.

You can however act as SIC - some people will tell you that's not worth the paper it's written on, but you later ask about insurance and who knows what information the insurance company will ask for. When you're filling out the insurance form, as long as you don't mis-represent the time, then complex time obtained while acting as SIC is just that and if the insurance company is interested good for them!
 
It looks like I cannot log the time because I'm not hp/retract endorsed.

From what I've read I can't even log normal PIC time (I could if we were flying a 172) when I act as a safety pilot.

Next question - If I get the endorsements for hp/retract can I log the times as hp/retract/and time in type?
 
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CFIse said:
In order to act as PIC you must meet all the requirements to act as PIC including endorsements etc. You don't have them so you cannot act as PIC and therefore cannot log it.

When you say endorsements etc does that mean that beyond a hp/retract endrosement I would also need to be qualified by the insurance company? Is there any other strings attached?

Not trying to break any rules just learning what is legal.

Great responses by the way!
 
Iceman said:
...can I log the time if the plane we are using is a retractable high-performance plane?

Yes, you can be the safety pilot while your pal is the PIC and flying under the hood, and you can log the time in your SIC column as well as total flight time. The complex/HP ATE's are required only to be PIC, and your pal is that, not you. To be only a safety pilot all you need is the appropriate category and class ratings (which you have -- Airplane SEL) and a medical currently valid for 3rd class or higher.

Can I have that high performance retract time in my log book even though I’m not rated for either?

If you and your pal swapped seats, and you were flying the plane as sole manipulator while he was acting as PIC in the right seat, you could legally log that time in the PIC column of your logbook even though you don't have the ATE's, since the ATE's are required only to ACT as PIC, not to log PIC time, which requires only that you be "rated" in the aircraft, and that means only category and class (and, if appropriate, the type rating). However, before you take that HP complex aircraft up solo or with non-PIC-qualified passengers (i.e., you act as PIC), you must have the ATE's in your log.

Note in particular that the FAA has defined "rated" as meaning only the applicable category, class, and (if required) type ratings -- ATE's are NOT included in the meaning of the word "rated." And that is straight from the FAA Chief Counsel's office, so it is as reliable as it gets.
 
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Iceman said:
When you say endorsements etc does that mean that beyond a hp/retract endrosement I would also need to be qualified by the insurance company? Is there any other strings attached?

Not trying to break any rules just learning what is legal.

Great responses by the way!

A few things:

- Lets assume that you have only flown a 152. The FAA doesn't mind that you go and fly a 172, Archer, or any other fixed tricycle gear, non HP, non complex, aircraft. You might not be covered by insurance, but you do have the license to fly that aircraft. So you don't need to be approved by the insurance company to fly. :)

- Whether or not you can log time is always somewhat a grey area. You can't really log the time if you're not endorsed in the aircraft. But I've known more than a few people who in fact did retroactively log hours after they've been endorsed. Legal issues? who knows. :)

- If you do retroactively log the hours, did you really get the experience from those hours you think you did? In other words, I wouldn't log 50hrs of Bonanza time if I had yet to really fly the airplane. :)

I don't think there is a problem with adding it to your total time though. You just couldn't log 'High Performance' hours. :)
 
Ron Levy said:
To be only a safety pilot all you need is the appropriate category and class ratings (which you have -- Airplane SEL) and a medical currently valid for 3rd class or higher.

Just being the devil's advocate here... I'm not sure if you do need to even be current (medical/license wise) to act as a safety pilot. Only to log the time.

I might be wrong. I'd have to look up the FARs again.
 
Here's the easiest way I look at logging/acting PIC as/with a safety pilot:
(you need a current medical)

Could you legally fly this plane with passengers?
Yes: You may act/log it as PIC
No: You may not act/log it as PIC

As the sole manipulator:
(you don't need a current medical if the other person meets the above requirements)
Can you legally fly this plane solo?
Yes: log it as PIC
No: Is all that is required for you to legally fly it solo an endorsement?
Yes - log it as PIC
No - you may not log it as PIC ( you aren't rated )
 
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AirBaker said:
I'm not sure if you do need to even be current (medical/license wise) to act as a safety pilot.

Yes, you do have to have a current medical and at least a Private Pilot certificate with the applicable category and class ratings to act as a SIC safety pilot. References are 14 CFR 91.109(b) and 14 CFR 61.23(a)(3)(i). However, the currencies required by 14 CFR 61.57 apply only to being the PIC, not to being a safety pilot or logging PIC time.

Only to log the time.

Currency is not an issue for logging time. Take a look at 14 CFR 61.51 -- no references anywhere to currency. Unless you're an instructor or an airline captain, logging PIC time is only about being "rated" and the sole manipulator, or being the designated PIC (which DOES require 61.57 currency) while two pilots are required by the regs (e.g., 14 CFR 91.109(b)) or the aircraft type certificate (e.g., DC-3 or LearJet).

I might be wrong. I'd have to look up the FARs again.

Relevant regs cited for your convenience.
 
AirBaker said:
- Lets assume that you have only flown a 152. The FAA doesn't mind that you go and fly a 172, Archer, or any other fixed tricycle gear, non HP, non complex, aircraft. You might not be covered by insurance, but you do have the license to fly that aircraft. So you don't need to be approved by the insurance company to fly.

Right -- you need the category/class and and, if applicable, ATE's/type rating to be the PIC of an aircraft, and from an FAA view, if you've got 'em, you've got 'em.

- Whether or not you can log time is always somewhat a grey area.

Logging time is very black and white once you read 14 CFR 61.51 carefully, and combine with it the official FAA Chief Counsel-approved definition of "rated": having the applicable category, class, and (if required) type ratings on one's pilot certificate (and ONLY that -- no ATE's needed to be "rated").

You can't really log the time if you're not endorsed in the aircraft.

If you mean you can't log time in an aircraft for which you do not have the applicable 61.31 ATE's, that's just not true, and it's been specifically addressed by the FAA Chief Counsel's office. If you are "rated" and the sole manipulator of the controls, you can log it as PIC time. If you are rated and the SIC safety pilot under 14 CFR 91.109(b), you can log it as SIC time. Note that in the sole manipulator case, someone who DOES have the ATE's and is current and qualified to be PIC must be there acting as PIC while you fly the plane.

But I've known more than a few people who in fact did retroactively log hours after they've been endorsed. Legal issues? who knows.

If they were the sole manipulator of an aircraft for which they were rated, it was legal for them to log the time before they got the ATE, and they need not have waited to make this perfectly legal entry. However, making a series of LATE entries out of sequence is going to raise FAA eyebrows with suspicions of making up time that wasn't really flown.

- If you do retroactively log the hours, did you really get the experience from those hours you think you did? In other words, I wouldn't log 50hrs of Bonanza time if I had yet to really fly the airplane.

You only get to log the PIC time under the sole manipulator clause (61.51(e)(1)(i)) if you actually flew the plane while you were "rated", although someone else properly PIC-qualified and current may have been the legal PIC at the time.

I don't think there is a problem with adding it to your total time though. You just couldn't log 'High Performance' hours.

Assuming you were "rated" at the time of the flight, there would be no problem logging this "hands-on-stick-and-throttle" time to your PIC, total flight, and total pilot columns. And since 61.51 does not address "High Performance" time, and nowhere in Part 61 is there any requirement for "High Performance" time, the FAA won't care about that column if you so create one.
 
According to AOPA (I called with the same question) you can log it as SIC time. You need a licesnse and current medical, but not the high performance/complex endorsements.
 
Iceman said:
When you say endorsements etc does that mean that beyond a hp/retract endrosement I would also need to be qualified by the insurance company? Is there any other strings attached?

Not trying to break any rules just learning what is legal.

Great responses by the way!

Whatever endorsements you need. I'm not sure what plane you're flying, but certainly the appropriate high performance and/or complex endorsements. But does it have a tailwheel? There's another endorsment you'll need.

The "etc." was meant to cover all the other things you'll need, like a current Flight Review.

Scattered throughout 14 CFR is the phrase (or it's equivalent) "in order to act as PIC of" - you need to find and comply with all the relevant requirements. So there may be a number of strings attached, but only you know your current status so only you know what you need.

Hope that helps.
 
CFIse said:
Whatever endorsements you need. I'm not sure what plane you're flying, but certainly the appropriate high performance and/or complex endorsements. But does it have a tailwheel? There's another endorsment you'll need.

The "etc." was meant to cover all the other things you'll need, like a current Flight Review.

Scattered throughout 14 CFR is the phrase (or it's equivalent) "in order to act as PIC of" - you need to find and comply with all the relevant requirements. So there may be a number of strings attached, but only you know your current status so only you know what you need.

Hope that helps.

Keep in mind that CFIse's remarks apply ONLY to acting as PIC -- you can still be an SIC safety pilot without any of the ATE's or a current flight review or landing currency as long as the other pilot has them and is acting as the "real" PIC, and you have your PVT with the right cat/class ratings and a current 3rd or better medical. Of course, in this case, you can only log SIC time, but total time is total time and it all counts for 250 or 1500, as applicable.
 
Thanks for the responses. I think I have a lot better handle on SIC vs PIC, legally responsible vs in control of the aircraft, and what it takes to be qualified for these positions.

Now I just need to find a good place to rent a 182RG and get some endorsements. (SW michigan if anyone can think of any)

Thanks again
Chris
 
Flyboy said:
Here is a pretty good PDF done by troy Whistman on a flow chart for logging time.

Great chart...I printed it off and put it in my flight bag.

Thanks
Chris
 
Ron Levy said:
...And since 61.51 does not address "High Performance" time, and nowhere in Part 61 is there any requirement for "High Performance" time, the FAA won't care about that column if you so create one.

Well, almost. If you were talking about logging retroactively to before Aug. 1997 then the FAA would care as that negates the need for an endorsement. Then again, if you log the aircraft type then you'd have that covered without a separate column.
 
lancefisher said:
Well, almost. If you were talking about logging retroactively to before Aug. 1997 then the FAA would care as that negates the need for an endorsement. Then again, if you log the aircraft type then you'd have that covered without a separate column.

61.31(f)(2) is worded in such a manner that we could have another 100 message thread about what, exactly, is modified by "...prior to August 4, 1997":

61.31(f)(2):

The training and endorsement required by paragraph (f)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane prior to August 4, 1997.


Is it the logging that was required to be completed prior to 8/4/1997, or just the flight? Only the FAA Chief Counsel knows... ;-)
 
Ed Guthrie said:
61.31(f)(2) is worded in such a manner that we could have another 100 message thread about what, exactly, is modified by "...prior to August 4, 1997":

61.31(f)(2):

The training and endorsement required by paragraph (f)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane prior to August 4, 1997.


Is it the logging that was required to be completed prior to 8/4/1997, or just the flight? Only the FAA Chief Counsel knows... ;-)

You're right the semantics could be debated but I'm certain as I can be that the intent was to put a sunset on the grandfathering based on the date of the flight, not the logging. If that weren't true, a pilot could lose his grandfathered status if he lost and was able to reconstruct the log.
 
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