Safety Pilot Logging - XC?

MSmith

MSmith

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Mark Smith
The situation:

Pilot A, PP-ASEL working in Instrument rating is flying left seat under the hood. Acting as PIC (sole manipulator)
Pilot B, PP-ASEL no Instrument rating is flying right seat as Safety Pilot, as previously agreed PIC (for the PIC logging)

The flight qualifies as XC.

Can Pilot B log XC time as well as PIC?
 
As I understand it, you've got them backwards.

Either:
Pilot A logs PIC (sole manipulator in aircraft for which he is rated)
Pilot B is PIC

OR:
Pilot A is PIC
Pilot B is SIC (required crew member for simulated instrument conditions)
 
OK, pilot A and B agree ahead of time that B is PIC. Therefore, B can log PIC, right?

A can also log PIC as sole manipulator of the controls, right?
 
Yes, in the first example, if B is PIC, then B is PIC and logs it.

A logs PIC as sole manipulator of the controls - he is not ACTING as PIC, he is simply logging it.

In the second example, B can only log SIC.
 
Gotcha.

How about logging XC?

We assume that the flight meets XC requirements (over 50NM from home for at least one landing)
 
Both of them can log the XC. Technically, IIRC, XC means from airport A to any other airport than A, but I personally don't log XC unless its also > 50 nm since for IFR certification, thats the minimum.
 
Whoo-hoo! our first "logging" post.

First, you can log anything you like, including how long you sat in the airport restaurant and what you ate.

The real question, of course, is what logged time "counts" with regard to currency requirements, minimums for certificates and ratings, and, if you're aiming for a job as professional pilot, what will impress an airline.

Your message seems to confuse "acting as PIC" (i.e., being responsible for the flight) and logging PIC time (when the sole manipulator of the controls). Sometimes these two roles coincide; sometimes they don't.

For more information about your specific question (how to account for time spent as a safety pilot, see AOPA's excellent summaries (you must be an AOPA member to view the information at this link):

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/sftyplt.html

You may also want to see:

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/pic.html

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/logbooks.html

A basic summary from AOPA follows (note that the specific issue of X-C time doesn't come up):
[font=VERDANA,HELVETICA,ARIAL]
Logging Time: Safety Pilot

[/font][size=+2]A[/size] safety pilot is required by FAR 91.109(b) when the other pilot is "under the hood". The safety pilot:


  • must be at least a private pilot. 91.109(b)(1)
  • must be rated for the category and class (airplane, single-engine land) of the aircraft flown. 91.109(b)(1)
  • must have a current medical. as a required flight crewmember, the safety pilot must have a current medical certificate. 61.3(c)
  • must occupy the other control seat (normally the right or "co-pilot's" seat). FAR 91.109(b)(1)
Logging flight time


  • Pilot "under-the-hood"
    • may log pilot-in-command time while sole manipulator of the controls. FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i).
  • Safety Pilot.

    • Pilot-in-command time may be logged if acting as PIC.
      • The two pilots must agree that the safety pilot is the acting PIC.
      • PIC time may be logged only while the other pilot is "under-the-hood".
      • PIC time may be logged because FAR 61.51(e)(1)(iii) allows certificated pilots to log PIC when acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required by the regulations (91.109(b)) under which the flight is conducted. A safety pilot is required for "hood work."
    • Second-in-command time may be logged if not acting as PIC.

      • Usually the case if the safety pilot cannot act as PIC. An example might be when the safety pilot is not endorsed for the particular airplane (such as in a high-performance aircraft).
      • SIC time may be logged because FAR 61.51(f)(2) allows a pilot to log all flight time during which he acts as second-in-command of an aircraft under which more than one pilot is required by the regulations (91.109(b)) under which the flight is conducted.
Other considerations




  • Summary of logging PIC. Both pilots may log PIC time if the safety pilot is the acting pilot-in-command. FAR 61.51(e) allows both the sole manipulator of the controls and the acting PIC to log PIC time.
  • Acting as PIC. The safety pilot should not take the role as acting PIC lightly. What if the aircraft is involved in an accident, incident, or violates an FAR?
  • High-performance aircraft. AOPA has a letter of interpretation that states the safety pilot does not have to have a high-performance "sign-off" to act as safety pilot. However, some FAA divisions may interpret the regulations differently. Prudence suggests that the safety pilot be endorsed for high-performance aircraft and thoroughly familiar and current in the aircraft.
  • Recording flight. AOPA suggests that both pilots include in their logbook the name of the other pilot. This may assist you if the FAA ever questions the logged time.
 
Thanks, Bruce. I had all of what you posted figured out, just not the XC part. Sorry if I sounded confused - it was straight in my head.
 
Clarification:

14 CFR 61.1.b.3
(3) Cross-country time means—
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
​
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
​
Click to expand...

So you see what I mean by Cross Country meaning any distance, but why I only LOG XC when its > 50nm.
 
Yeah.

I suppose if you flew with your eyes closed, you'd fail on (i)(D) - I can't see why that line is even there. I use pilotage to fly 2NM from VAY to N14!
 
BTW - AOPA agrees - the safety pilot can log XC, even though they can't count the landing.

So that's what we did. We had a fun first flight with me as safety pilot - N87 (Trenton/Robbinsville) to LNS (Lancaster, PA) with a good lunch and time at the Airways pilot shop!
 
Whoops.

AOPA reversed themselves.

Apparently, since the safety pilot doesn't actually do the landing, it doesn't count as XC time for the purpose of Instrument or Commercial.

Since the ATP requirements define XC differently (any flight to a point more than 50 NM from home, with or without a landing), the time would count towards ATP XC requirements.

I guess I'll go white-out the XC time in my logbook.
 
I believe there is a way around it, so that both pilots get XC time. But both have to satisfy the requirements set forth in the FARs.
 
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