Sad day for a mooney at LZU

[ChemGuy]

It's all second hand information from my buddy who was present, so take it with a grain of salt, but they tried every angle they could to try and stick a violation on him for landing gear up, even with three witnesses confirming the gear was down.

I could ask him personally, but why bring it up?

Effin G men.
Nice to see the friendlier FAA is around now.

Just call him Mooney Killer, or Qtip or something for a while. That should do.

 

[NoHeat]

No way I'm shutting down a perfect running engine on an airplane that belongs to the insurance company anyway. If I had the misfortune to need to gear up an airplane, that would be the day I need to go around.

Exactly

 

[MAKG1]

So what exactly should he have done then? He took measure to minimize the damage and the possibility of further damage to an already dismal situation.

He was screwing with his engines during the flare.

And he still has to tear down both engines.

He should have left them alone and dealt with the emergency. He got an additional risk for no gain.

 

[dell30rb]

It's all second hand information from my buddy who was present, so take it with a grain of salt, but they tried every angle they could to try and stick a violation on him for landing gear up, even with three witnesses confirming the gear was down.

I could ask him personally, but why bring it up?

IIRC the gear in a Mooney - all 3 wheels are mechanically connected to an electric gear actuator. The system is very reliable, but if something fails you can definitely have all 3 wheels collapse at once after landing.

IF the feds didn't know this - the damage would look like a true gear up. Most airplanes are not built like the mooneys, a failure after seeing "3 green" would only result in one wheel collapsing.

 

[Hank S]

IIRC the gear in a Mooney - all 3 wheels are mechanically connected to an electric gear actuator. The system is very reliable, but if something fails you can definitely have all 3 wheels collapse at once after landing.

IF the feds didn't know this - the damage would look like a true gear up. Most airplanes are not built like the mooneys, a failure after seeing "3 green" would only result in one wheel collapsing.

This is correct, one motor moves all three wheels. So we have only one green light. If the preload on the gear mechanism isn't properly set, the gear can collapse on landing. Unless something is physically broken, all three wheels move up and down together.

For those who asked, landing gear up in the grass generally causes more damage than the runway--it's not level, it's not firm, pieces of the plane often catch in bumps or dig into soft spots and bend, tear and/or turn or spin the plane. Go for the runway.

 

[hindsight2020]

Insurance companies don't pay for a new engine. It is my understanding they prorate based on SMOH. That said, I'm still not inclined to fiddle with the prop end game just to avoid a teardown.

A gear failure to extend is a non-event in these spam cans. Just put it down and give it to the insurance company. Go buy another one. Just make sure your hull insured value reflects what you have on it, lest you want give away all your panel installed toys to the insurance company for free.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

IIRC the gear in a Mooney - all 3 wheels are mechanically connected to an electric gear actuator. The system is very reliable, but if something fails you can definitely have all 3 wheels collapse at once after landing.

IF the feds didn't know this - the damage would look like a true gear up. Most airplanes are not built like the mooneys, a failure after seeing "3 green" would only result in one wheel collapsing.

I've flown this particular Mooney previously. It has the Johnson bar, not an electrically driven gear system. There is only one light for gear confirmation.

 

[James331]

Correct answer, at that point the insurance co owns the airplane.

Skin, tin, ticket.

Sigh.

What do you think the tin part is about.

The whole "the insurance co owns it when the engine stops" is BS, also the better condition the package is in, often the better condition the contents are in anyways.

Easy if you can get high over the field, shut down, kick the starter till the prop is where you want it and maneuver for a landing.

Shutting down the engine abeam the numbers should not be an emergency. If you feel it is, it might the time to get a CFI and try some power-off landings.

Exactly.

 

[frfly172]

Protect the pilot and pax,then worry about the airplane. Fly the airplane all the way to the landing.

 

[Henning]

IIRC the gear in a Mooney - all 3 wheels are mechanically connected to an electric gear actuator. The system is very reliable, but if something fails you can definitely have all 3 wheels collapse at once after landing.

IF the feds didn't know this - the damage would look like a true gear up. Most airplanes are not built like the mooneys, a failure after seeing "3 green" would only result in one wheel collapsing.

Oh no, while they share a common drive to a point, there are multiple independent failure points in each path of force beyond the common hub. You can lose one wheel on any plane.

 

[Henning]

This is correct, one motor moves all three wheels. So we have only one green light. If the preload on the gear mechanism isn't properly set, the gear can collapse on landing. Unless something is physically broken, all three wheels move up and down together.

For those who asked, landing gear up in the grass generally causes more damage than the runway--it's not level, it's not firm, pieces of the plane often catch in bumps or dig into soft spots and bend, tear and/or turn or spin the plane. Go for the runway.

I landed on the runway with all three wheels sucked up and the airframe damage was not severe at all. Flaps and jacking pegs were what took most of it and 2 belly skins got damaged, that's it, and that's the typical level of airframe damage if you just keep it running, keep it flying, and make a nice normal landing. She just slides along a bit and comes to a stop. **** cutting the engines, take the easy sure thing.

 

[hindsight2020]

I've flown this particular Mooney previously. It has the Johnson bar, not an electrically driven gear system. There is only one light for gear confirmation.

Oooooh. that's a different story altogether. The bar retaining clip is a notorious weak link on those. Wear and tear makes that latching a false positive. That certainly goes in line with the ground collapse.

The whole "the insurance co owns it when the engine stops" is BS, also the better condition the package is in, often the better condition the contents are in anyways.

How so?

 

[James331]

Protect the pilot and pax,then worry about the airplane. Fly the airplane all the way to the landing.

Nine times out of ten it's one and the same

Better condition the box, better condition the eggs are in.


Also I like my plane, also also not everyone buys insurance.


The biggest message to get across is protecting the aircraft protects the pax.

 

[Perezhr]

Whole write up about this in Mooneyspace. Yes the Johnson bar came out of the locked position, but the mechanic had also been playing around with resetting the preload. Pilot said he noticed it was becoming easier to extend/retract the gear with time. I think the jury is still out.

 

[StinkBug]

Oh no, while they share a common drive to a point, there are multiple independent failure points in each path of force beyond the common hub. You can lose one wheel on any plane.

Yes, if part of the linkage were to break it's possible for one wheel to not extend, but that's exceedingly unlikely with the Mooney design. It's all steel pushrods and linkages. Generally it's either all or nothing. I've never heard of a Mooney having just one wheel not come down. I have however heard of actuator issues on the electric models, which cause all wheels to stay up, Johnson bar socket wear causing the handle to pop out upon landing and retract the wheels on manual models, and nose gear trusses folding after some ramper oversteered them with a tug and damaged the tubes.

Sure, it's possible for something to break, it's just highly unlikely. The reason they could certify the plane with one gear light and not 3 is because the design is such that it's nearly impossible to have one wheel out of sync.

 

[Gsxrpilot]

I have the Johnson bar manual gear in my Mooney. It is as fool proof a gear system as exists anywhere. I love the reliability. It's easy to check and verify that the gear is locked and secure before landing. No need for lights, horn, etc. If the bar is up and locked, the gear is down and locked. A sharp downward tug on the bar will instantly confirm if it is properly seated and secure.

The added benefit is how cool it looks on takeoff as the gear retracts in about 2 seconds flat, often still low over the runway. The Mooney picks up speed quickly and at 80 kts+ the gear gets very heavy. That's why you'll see Mooney drivers hank the gear very quickly after breaking ground.

If any of you are ever in Austin, give me a shout. I'm always happy to introduce the Mooney to new pilots.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I have the Johnson bar manual gear in my Mooney. It is as fool proof a gear system as exists anywhere. I love the reliability. It's easy to check and verify that the gear is locked and secure before landing. No need for lights, horn, etc. If the bar is up and locked, the gear is down and locked. A sharp downward tug on the bar will instantly confirm if it is properly seated and secure.

The added benefit is how cool it looks on takeoff as the gear retracts in about 2 seconds flat, often still low over the runway. The Mooney picks up speed quickly and at 80 kts+ the gear gets very heavy. That's why you'll see Mooney drivers hank the gear very quickly after breaking ground.

If any of you are ever in Austin, give me a shout. I'm always happy to introduce the Mooney to new pilots.

All of this is so true. A great gear system , quick and positive. Wonderful airplane. Fun! With a six thousand foot runway, shutting down a mooney on final, with a pilot familiar with the airplane, would be a no brainier and very safe.

 

[bflynn]

Stop the prop? Save the engine? Nope. It's about to become the insurance company's airplane. I would not risk anything to save the smallest part of their airplane. Beyond that, I will damage it in any way that might enhance my survival.

 

[hindsight2020]

I have the Johnson bar manual gear in my Mooney. It is as fool proof a gear system as exists anywhere. I love the reliability. It's easy to check and verify that the gear is locked and secure before landing. No need for lights, horn, etc. If the bar is up and locked, the gear is down and locked. A sharp downward tug on the bar will instantly confirm if it is properly seated and secure.

The added benefit is how cool it looks on takeoff as the gear retracts in about 2 seconds flat, often still low over the runway. The Mooney picks up speed quickly and at 80 kts+ the gear gets very heavy. That's why you'll see Mooney drivers hank the gear very quickly after breaking ground.

If any of you are ever in Austin, give me a shout. I'm always happy to introduce the Mooney to new pilots.

Did you read the thread? This incident speaks against the notion the manual gear setup is fool proof. Anything that gives you false positives (i.e. something that requires you got to wiggle your toes, count to 10, stand on your head and yank on it three times like an OCD patient in order to believe the green light) is inherently NOT fool proof. Quite the opposite.

Coincidentally, we just had the local F model buy it on the taxiway down here last week. Gear folded on the taxiway on the way to the runway. Jury is still out on cause, rumor is fingers are flying in a three-party mexican standoff between the owner, AP and the FBO that hangars it. I guess the insurance will be the one to settle the score...

I'm not impressed with the manual gear. Sounds reliable in theory, in practice it doesn't seem to deliver peace of mind.

 

[BillTIZ]

Do you still need an engine teardown if the engine is shut down and the prop is windmilling when it strikes the pavement?

I was once told.
If the prop has to be removed to dress out any damage, then it's an engine teardown.

 

[Gsxrpilot]

Did you read the thread? This incident speaks against the notion the manual gear setup is fool proof. Anything that gives you false positives (i.e. something that requires you got to wiggle your toes, count to 10, stand on your head and yank on it three times like an OCD patient in order to believe the green light) is inherently NOT fool proof. Quite the opposite.

Coincidentally, we just had the local F model buy it on the taxiway down here last week. Gear folded on the taxiway on the way to the runway. Jury is still out on cause, rumor is fingers are flying in a three-party mexican standoff between the owner, AP and the FBO that hangars it. I guess the insurance will be the one to settle the score...

I'm not impressed with the manual gear. Sounds reliable in theory, in practice it doesn't seem to deliver peace of mind.

How much time do you have in manual gear Mooneys? I think not much.

 

[StinkBug]

How much time do you have in manual gear Mooneys? I think not much.

I tend to agree, though there is one known issue with manual gear planes, though it's very easily fixed. The socket the handle locks into gets worn over time and if worn bad enough the handle can pop out. Go figure, a metal to metal contact area gets worn over many years of use, must be a poor design.