Saab to be shuttered

Mari, I agree with you, but Brad makes a good point above - it is tough for domestic manufacturers to compete with foreign manufacturers which do not have to comply with many of the (insert adjective of choice here - onerous / reasonable / idiotic / well-founded / visionary / moronic) rules and regulations, including those relating to jobsite safety, wage and hour and environmental issues.

Exanple: I represent many in the masonry business; sometimes, natural stone from a particular quarry in Italy will be specified, and then the quarried stone is fabricated into the desired shapes. When a supplier can ship the stone from Italy to China, fabricate it into the finished shape there, containerize it and ship it to the states, and still undercut the pricing a domestic fabricator can manage, you know there's a problem, and that problem (nutshell) is that the Chinese entity operates free of the basic regulatory environment which applies to domestic manufacturers and employers.

Query: Is it protectionism to require that foreign mfgs comply with the same laws as domestic?

Discuss.
 
SCCutler said:
Query: Is it protectionism to require that foreign mfgs comply with the same laws as domestic?
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I don't think that we can change laws in a foreign country any more than we would want them to change our laws. However I think trade agreements should have certain standards that are fair. I don't know enough about international trade to say how to accomplish this. Strange how some people don't like US companies outsourcing labor but they also don't like foreign companies investing in the US and providing US jobs.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It's no more a clean-sheet design than the X-type or S-type was.
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Please explain. The X-Type and S-Type (and I think the new XF, but I don't know for sure) were built on modified Ford Global platforms.

The all-aluminum XJ chassis X-350 adopted in the 2004 model year was a completely new design. Its platform was not used for anything else. You cannot take a steel design and translate it to aluminum, but you can take an aluminum design and translate it to steel.
 
murphey said:
All the Saab (auto) commercials this year had the tagline "designed by aircraft engineers" or something like that. Then in tiny print at the bottom of the screen was the disclaimer that one currently has nothing to do with the other.
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Reminds me of the time I was shopping for a car stereo, and that salesman claimed that one particular unit was "aircraft quality." He couldn't understand it when I burst out laughing.

Ron (Years airplane owned: 14: Times Comm radio repaired/replaced: 4) Wanttaja
 
Hold on, hold on, hold on. Before we embark on yet another round of slamming American businesspeople....

Let he who has not shopped at Walmart cast the first stone.

Lots of people talk smack about "Oh, America's poor workers, oh our poor manufacturing base, oh, we don't make anything anymore" finish their sentence and run out to the local strip mall WalMart to buy their Chinese-made widgets. They don't go to Main Street to buy American widgets, because they cost $2 more per widget on Main Street.

We have met the enemy, and he is us. WalMart is not evil --- they give the customer what the customer wants. They throw just enough "Made In USA" crap in the aisles to appeal to the NASCAR crowd whilst largely stocking from "Made in China" crap.
 
Andrew, there are a lot of things that I can't find anywhere but WalMart these days. There is no main street shop that has the made-in-American variants.

If someone opened a version of WalMart that stocked American-made goods only, I'd shop there.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Andrew, there are a lot of things that I can't find anywhere but WalMart these days. There is no main street shop that has the made-in-American variants.

If someone opened a version of WalMart that stocked American-made goods only, I'd shop there.
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Really?

I have not walked into a WalMart in over 7 years to buy anything. There is nothing that I cannot find locally, in a nearby town or on the Internet. What pray tell does WalMart have that is so unique?
 
Other than location, price and the same Chinese stuff Ace hardware a mile farther away carries?

smigaldi said:
Really?

I have not walked into a WalMart in over 7 years to buy anything. There is nothing that I cannot find locally, in a nearby town or on the Internet. What pray tell does WalMart have that is so unique?
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Scott, you live in Chicago. Come to Williamsport and you'll find that WalMart, Target, and Sam's Club all have the same goods made in China.
 
IIRC, our last trade surplus was in 1975, just as the price increases brought about by the oil embargos became an accepted part of the landscape. None of this is new, nor should it come as a surprise. Nor should we think somebody in Washington or New York or Detroit can reverse it, or that railing about it on the internet or the golf course is going to change it. We're in for a long dry spell.

el con said:
Companies are created to make money.
Jobs are created because the guy who started the company wants to make more money and he can't do it by himself.
Our system is failing because we are selling our companies out to foreign investors, who now remove the excess profit out of our system and put it into there system. Yes some jobs are created.
We also do it by buying more imported goods than we ship out.
If it was a balanced trade system we would'nt be in the pickle that we're in now.
Click to expand...
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Scott, you live in Chicago. Come to Williamsport and you'll find that WalMart, Target, and Sam's Club all have the same goods made in China.
Click to expand...

If they all have the same thing then why is it that you can only find them in WalMart?

Ted DuPuis said:
Andrew, there are a lot of things that I can't find anywhere but WalMart these days.
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I'll shop occasionally at Target' (French of K-Mart), but I am still able to find stuff I need without having to go to big box stores. It really is not that hard and I think easier. I don't have to deal with giant parking lots filled with every moron who has not learned to drive. I get to actually know the store owners, and best off all I don't have to see the people of WalMart in person!! ;) :)
 
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smigaldi said:
Really?

I have not walked into a WalMart in over 7 years to buy anything. There is nothing that I cannot find locally, in a nearby town or on the Internet. What pray tell does WalMart have that is so unique?
Click to expand...

Ted DuPuis said:
Scott, you live in Chicago. Come to Williamsport and you'll find that WalMart, Target, and Sam's Club all have the same goods made in China.
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What Ted said.

I avoid Walmart, but sometimes I have little choice. Sometimes there is amusement value (see peopleofwalmart.com).

I own some mountain property not far from a small city. Walmart isn't the only place in town, but sometimes you just need an orange "I ain't your target" sweatshirt". It turns out that Walmart is the closest general merchandise place to my place. I could spend the extra time to go across town to another big-box merchant, or look hard for a smaller merchant.... but it isn't always that easy. Some of the smaller merchants just don't carry the stuff I need anymore... the big boxes have underpriced them.

Around home, I can't remember the last time I was in a Walmart or Target. Lowe's, Costco, Sport's Authority, etc. - yep, on a regular basis. Otherwise, it's the smaller, local merchant. In fact, the best general hardware store I know is a small, neighborhood place near my parent's house. Inconvenient for me if I'm a home and need something, but great when I'm visiting and have repair work to do.
 
Yeah, Ted, I know what you mean. They've taken over vast swathes of small town USA. Ironic, given that that's where most of the "USA USA" crowd lives. I guess low low prices trumps patriotism.

Frankly, I've been to 3 WalMarts, one in Maine, one in Idaho, and one locally. They were indistinguishable from each other, down to the filthy floors, cruddy merchandise, and skeevy customers and employees.

Am I a snob? Mayhaps. But WalMart is just yechh. Target, I like.
 
I used to buy my soap from a local soap-maker in Leesburg. She lives in Berryville and makes her soap from hand. Heavenly soap - very rich, soft, gentle and creamy. She developed it herself when her babies were little and couldn't use regular soap - sensitive skin.

I remember her telling me that they bought their ribbons for the soap packages from the only ribbon-maker who was still left in the US (somewhere in PA). She and her kids wrapped each soap bar by hand, too.

She gave up her Leesburg store front this year with the downturn. She may still have the Winchester one, not sure. I should make a trek out there just for the heck of it actually.

Has nothing to do with cars, just the "buy USA" theme.
 
It ain't the French/German wine and cars. That's niche stuff.

It's the Chinese everything else.
 
wsuffa said:
So, you giving up French and Italian wine? :rolleyes:
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They can have my French and Italian wine when they can pry it from my drunk hands!!! :D:D

I do go to a locally owned cheese shop for my imported cheeses! :D

Seriously though, I try to always buy from a store that is locally owned instead of the big box guys. I like to do that for several reasons. One is that it helps to keep money in the community, second I like the atmosphere much better in a small store than a giant store, thirdly there are some unique things to be had in a small store that a large store would not carry. I am not opposed to the big stores, I prefer the little ones, I do not like it when the big ones come in and go out of their way to push our competition.
 
wsuffa said:
I own some mountain property not far from a small city. Walmart isn't the only place in town, but sometimes you just need an orange "I ain't your target" sweatshirt". It turns out that Walmart is the closest general merchandise place to my place. I could spend the extra time to go across town to another big-box merchant, or look hard for a smaller merchant.... but it isn't always that easy. Some of the smaller merchants just don't carry the stuff I need anymore... the big boxes have underpriced them.
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In the town where I live Wal-Mart is the only general purpose store, and it's only been here 3 or 4 months. It's 5 miles away vs. the place where suburban Denver starts which is about 15 miles away. Their philosophy must be "build it and they will come" but I went there last week and the parking lot was maybe 1/4 full, if that. For the week before Christmas that is probably not a good sign. I have no philosophical objection to Wal-Mart and you can buy most of the same products there than you can in any other store. A box of Corn Flakes is still a box of Corn Flakes.
 
Do you work for a big company or a small one?

smigaldi said:
They can have my French and Italian wine when they can pry it from my drunk hands!!! :D:D

I do go to a locally owned cheese shop for my imported cheeses! :D

Seriously though, I try to always buy from a store that is locally owned instead of the big box guys. I like to do that for several reasons. One is that it helps to keep money in the community, second I like the atmosphere much better in a small store than a giant store, thirdly there are some unique things to be had in a small store that a large store would not carry. I am not opposed to the big stores, I prefer the little ones, I do not like it when the big ones come in and go out of their way to push our competition.
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I suppose in time everything will even out. The chinese hold so much of the US debt it's more than scary. If we all just keep buying their stuff, and we all keep losing our jobs because we make less and less of anything of value. Pretty soon we will be on a level to compete. That's what I meant when we started this thread. We will have spiraled down to a level that averages out world wide. As I said, take a few hundred million of us in the US and average us out with the billions in the rest of the world, well,were gonna take more than a few notch's down in the standard of living. Just as you can't make any more oil, there are only so many resources in this world. They are being used up. People say we need to spread the wealth, but I say if you do then no one is wealthy. If you average everything out to everyone ,unfortunately we will all be poor.
Maybe we need a good worldwide plague or something:yikes:, if you think about it the wealthy have subsidized the poor, fed people that can't take care of themselves, tried to heal people that go back to the same life style that created their illness. It has been that way for thousands of years.
I know I sound like Scrooge" bah humbug,what the world needs is to reduce the surface population" :nono:Cruel ,awful, yes but maybe needed some day. If we don't blow ourselves up, we will eventually use every resource on the planet,polute by human nature everything in our path:mad2:
and then fade into history. Can our leaders save us ?, NO, did you see all the attendees showing up to the big ECO,Global Climate Change, Horse Puckey Conference in what was it Copenhagen? Private jet's ,limo's?They had hundreds of limo's ,they ran out and had to bring them from other countries. Did they even realize what kind of "carbon footprint" that left!!:mad3:
Wow pleasant thoughts around the holidays eh??
( really, most of the time I'm pretty upbeat and positive, but this past year has really got me down, I think I need to go flying and burn some more fossil fuel,100LL, and spread the lead):rofl:
Happy Holidays Everyone:drink::drink::drink: And to all a good night:sleep:
 
flyersfan31 said:
Hold on, hold on, hold on. Before we embark on yet another round of slamming American businesspeople....

Let he who has not shopped at Walmart cast the first stone.

Lots of people talk smack about "Oh, America's poor workers, oh our poor manufacturing base, oh, we don't make anything anymore" finish their sentence and run out to the local strip mall WalMart to buy their Chinese-made widgets. They don't go to Main Street to buy American widgets, because they cost $2 more per widget on Main Street.

We have met the enemy, and he is us. WalMart is not evil --- they give the customer what the customer wants. They throw just enough "Made In USA" crap in the aisles to appeal to the NASCAR crowd whilst largely stocking from "Made in China" crap.
Click to expand...

Within the decade, I expect that there will be at least an attempt at passing laws regarding the importation of goods produced off-shore, as well as the "out-sourcing" of jobs.

The biggest question of such a law that I can think of right now is: what would the foreign policy implications be?
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Within the decade, I expect that there will be at least an attempt at passing laws regarding the importation of goods produced off-shore, as well as the "out-sourcing" of jobs.

The biggest question of such a law that I can think of right now is: what would the foreign policy implications be?
Click to expand...

Paging Mr. Smoot. Paging Mr. Hawley. Please report to Conference Room 1......
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Within the decade, I expect that there will be at least an attempt at passing laws regarding the importation of goods produced off-shore, as well as the "out-sourcing" of jobs.

The biggest question of such a law that I can think of right now is: what would the foreign policy implications be?
Click to expand...
Well we have tarrifs now and they are nothing new. I expect that same. The question is how to put them in the right industry sectors. Over use of them is not a good idea.
 
by the time there's any regulation on job outsourcing, our IT industry will be in the toilet, even more so than it is currently. IT college candidates will be all but gone, rates will be competitive with WalMart greeters, all your financial, medical, and personal information will be passed on from India to Malaysia to China to who knows where IT staff and corporate infrastructure will be held hostage to "cheapest bid" ...

yeah, I'm bitter.
 
PilotAlan said:
And, why do you see Cavaliers with 200,000 miles on them? Because you can buy them next to nothing and fix them cheap, because every shadetree mechanic knows downmarket GM products. They may still be on the road, but they tend to be rolling piles with next to nothing working properly (including the engine, transmission, steering, electricals, and brakes)
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My sunfire is basically a cavalier with a different interior. I'm up to about 160,000 miles and the power-train is still as strong as it was from day one. The steering and brakes work the same as they always have. You don't even need to change the oil, it just keeps running, I refer to it as my disposable car.

Over the last year I've replaced the water pump and the headlight switch assembly.

Considering how low of re-sale the GM products have, it's pretty amazing how much I've gotten out of that car for the money invested. It has some time in it left yet, I think.
 
woodstock said:
I agree re: Ford trucks. My parents actually did like their Ford trucks wayyy back in the day. My brother gets a new Ford pickup every 4-5 years - they are hauling horses and all the accoutrements thereof (you know, hay...) and needs a big tough truck.
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There is nothing like a full-sized Ford truck. I own a Ford E-150 full-sized van, and a Ford E-350 motorhome, and both are absolutely bulletproof, time-proven designs that are built to last.

Of course, they haven't changed the basic design much in 30 years. The Ford vans I drove in high school back in the '70s were largely the same vehicle -- which speaks well of their design. Why change when you've got it right?
 
smigaldi said:
They can have my French and Italian wine when they can pry it from my drunk hands!!! :D:D

I do go to a locally owned cheese shop for my imported cheeses! :D
Click to expand...

There you go, cutting the cheese again... :rofl::yikes:

Seriously though, I try to always buy from a store that is locally owned instead of the big box guys. I like to do that for several reasons. One is that it helps to keep money in the community, second I like the atmosphere much better in a small store than a giant store, thirdly there are some unique things to be had in a small store that a large store would not carry. I am not opposed to the big stores, I prefer the little ones, I do not like it when the big ones come in and go out of their way to push our competition.
Click to expand...

I likewise prefer the local (or regional) merchant - when I can get what I want there. For commodity goods, though, there's less of a reason to do that, and many of the local merchants don't carry that stuff any more.

And in some cases the local merchants have been snuffed out: try finding a local pharmacy in most cities these days - our corporate health plan has a sweetheart deal with CVS (even beyond the pharmacy benefits manager). (The rest of healthcare is headed that way, example: HCA, and will be pushed further that direction as the outcome of legislation). My preference for grocery here is Wegman's (regional).... it was Central Market (HEB) in San Antonio (also regional). But that's a 20-25 minute ride from the house: I'll buy produce at (gak)Shopper's before I'll get it at Safeway because the turnover is a lot faster, meaning that it's fresher.

While we're at it, I'll take a swipe at the large restaurant chains, too. My "hangout" is a local restaurant that's part of a local group of 15 or so places. It's one of those places where you go into the bar and the staff (and regulars) know your name.
 
wsuffa said:
While we're at it, I'll take a swipe at the large restaurant chains, too. My "hangout" is a local restaurant that's part of a local group of 15 or so places. It's one of those places where you go into the bar and the staff (and regulars) know your name.
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Oh yeah them too. I seldom do the chain restaurant thing. There is a great locally owned French bistro in the next town. Excellent food, the brother and sister that run it are French and really know what they are doing.
 
I'm giving up everything non-American...except for my British car, my Japanese and Chinese radios, my Russian and Brazilian guns, and my Irish whiskey.
 
smigaldi said:
Oh yeah them too. I seldom do the chain restaurant thing.
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The thing with chain restaurants is that they are predictable. With one-off restaurants you can pick a winner or a loser. I'm more willing to gamble. Other I travel with, sometimes not so much so.
 
That's a catchy description. Have you thought about syndicating at TV show about the place?

wsuffa said:
It's one of those places where you go into the bar and the staff (and regulars) know your name.
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For dinner tonight I drank and American bottle of wine.

No French stuff for me on this most American of days. When Rudolph and Santa died for my rights to buy gifts and stand in lines.

Wait, I might have that a little wrong ;)

But at any rate. I had a nice bottle of Chateau Ste. Michelle Chardonnay. A simple wine from Woodenville, WA. I had the pleasure of visiting the winery a year or so ago. But found this bottle in my local wine shop. It went very well with the lobster tail, braised cabbage and potatoes ala Provence that I cooked for supper this evening.
 
And one of the best things about California wineries is that they do an excellent job of matching their wines to those who drink them.:rofl:

smigaldi said:
For dinner tonight I drank and American bottle of wine.

No French stuff for me on this most American of days. When Rudolph and Santa died for my rights to buy gifts and stand in lines.

Wait, I might have that a little wrong ;)

But at any rate. I had a nice bottle of Chateau Ste. Michelle Chardonnay. A simple wine from Woodenville, WA. I had the pleasure of visiting the winery a year or so ago. But found this bottle in my local wine shop. It went very well with the lobster tail, braised cabbage and potatoes ala Provence that I cooked for supper this evening.
Click to expand...
 
smigaldi said:
For dinner tonight I drank and American bottle of wine.

No French stuff for me on this most American of days. When Rudolph and Santa died for my rights to buy gifts and stand in lines.

Wait, I might have that a little wrong ;)
Click to expand...

Go to Prague. Visit the Wenceslas memorial. We got nothing on Christmas (er Feast of Stephen)...
 
smigaldi said:
For dinner tonight I drank and American bottle of wine.

No French stuff for me on this most American of days. When Rudolph and Santa died for my rights to buy gifts and stand in lines.

Wait, I might have that a little wrong ;)

But at any rate. I had a nice bottle of Chateau Ste. Michelle Chardonnay. A simple wine from Woodenville, WA. I had the pleasure of visiting the winery a year or so ago. But found this bottle in my local wine shop. It went very well with the lobster tail, braised cabbage and potatoes ala Provence that I cooked for supper this evening.
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LOL!!
 
To think I had carry out Chinese with Crystal Light Pink lemonade. :D
 
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