S-Turns

[Flying_Nun]

...on the runway aren't such a good idea. At least according to my tailwheel instructor.

There's video if I can get the damn editing software to work.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm curious what your tail wheel instructor's reasoning is behind that statement?

I will readily admit that in some tail wheels, s-turns are not really necessary- I am tall enough to see just fine over the nose of my 170 and Champs/Citabrias. We also don't S-turn in the DC-3 (keep the tail wheel locked on the straightaways). But you better believe I S-turn in the T-6. You cant see where you're going if you don't! There is a video on You-tube of a guy who plows a T-6 into a car because he isn't S-turning. Then there was the TBM at Oshkosh a few years ago that chopped up an RV and killed a guy. Bet he wishes he had S-turned.

 

[poadeleted20]

I can see this varying depending on context. If the airplane is s-turning other than at your command, that's a serious problem in pilot control of the aircraft. If the aircraft is s-turning at the pilot's command to see the runway ahead at a nontowered airport once the airplane is under control after landing, that's another story entirely.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I can see this varying depending on context. If the airplane is s-turning other than at your command, that's a serious problem in pilot control of the aircraft. If the aircraft is s-turning at the pilot's command to see the runway ahead at a nontowered airport once the airplane is under control after landing, that's another story entirely.

Probably a good point. After rereading the original post, I suppose the video that the OP refers to might clarify things.

 

[BillTIZ]

I'm curious what your tail wheel instructor's reasoning is behind that statement?

I will readily admit that in some tail wheels, s-turns are not really necessary- I am tall enough to see just fine over the nose of my 170 and Champs/Citabrias. We also don't S-turn in the DC-3 (keep the tail wheel locked on the straightaways). But you better believe I S-turn in the T-6. You cant see where you're going if you don't! There is a video on You-tube of a guy who plows a T-6 into a car because he isn't S-turning. Then there was the TBM at Oshkosh a few years ago that chopped up an RV and killed a guy. Bet he wishes he had S-turned.

The OP was about S turns on the runway. That's takeoff and landing, not good to be S turning then.

You are taking about taxi techniques.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The OP was about S turns on the runway. That's takeoff and landing, not good to be S turning then.

You are taking about taxi techniques.

I was originally under the impression he was referring to taxi techniques....even on the runway, there are times before you start the takeoff roll or completing the rollout where you may need to s-tun. Not sure why anyone would intentionally s-turn while actually taking off or landing though. That is what confused me.


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[Flying_Nun]

I'm training in a Citabria and can see over the nose. I taxi just fine, take-off roll isn't too bad, but the landing rollout needs some work. Need to be a little lighter on the toes.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm training in a Citabria and can see over the nose. I taxi just fine, take-off roll isn't too bad, but the landing rollout needs some work. Need to be a little lighter on the toes.

...and that's when it gets, ummmm...interesting.

 

[flyingron]

The OP was about S turns on the runway. That's takeoff and landing, not good to be S turning then.

You are taking about taxi techniques.

Why should you not look ahead of you on takeoff? Speaking of Oshkosh, had the Howard Pardue's Bearcat bothered to look ahead on takeoff, he'd have not run over Lad Doctor's Corsair. You're just as blind until the tail comes up as you are on taxi.

Taxiing big-assed warbirds on narrow taxiways is scary. It's a manageable risk in the Warbird area where you know exactly who's ahead of you. On the general taxiways, they really ought to provide additional assistance.

 

[poadeleted20]

Why should you not look ahead of you on takeoff?

In a tail dragger, it would be a real bad idea to be trying to s-turn while rolling for takeoff -- that is a recipe for a ground loop. Usually it takes all I've got to keep it going straight, and intentionally making the cg swing back and forth in the wrong direction would be just asking for trouble.

Speaking of Oshkosh, had the Howard Pardue's Bearcat bothered to look ahead on takeoff, he'd have not run over Lad Doctor's Corsair. You're just as blind until the tail comes up as you are on taxi.

That was a rather special situation involving multiple aircraft lined up on the runway together. What they might have done is either confirm by radio that the aircraft ahead were rolling and airborne before releasing brakes, or pull onto the runway cocked enough to see the aircraft ahead and only straightened out when ready to roll. As for most of us, if you don't take the runway until it's clear, that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I'm training in a Citabria and can see over the nose. I taxi just fine, take-off roll isn't too bad, but the landing rollout needs some work. Need to be a little lighter on the toes.

It's pretty easy to get into PIO on the rollout. But eventually your feet figure it out.

 

[RoscoeT]

The OP is cryptic, but I think he's simply saying his landing rolls unintentionally look like a salmon swimming upstream at this point in his tailwheel training. I don't think it has anything to do with s-turns while taxiing. There's no reason to s-turn in a Citrabria period. But it's funny what kinds of arguments result.

 

[Gubbins]

Possibly her habit gets in the way during those turns and obscures her vision perhaps which is not good during a takeoff. Looking forward to the video. It should be interesting.

 

[flyingron]

In a tail dragger, it would be a real bad idea to be trying to s-turn while rolling for takeoff -- that is a recipe for a ground loop.

I am familiar with flying tail draggers. No you don't want to S-turn at speed, but at speed you're also likely to have the tail up.

pull onto the runway cocked enough to see the aircraft ahead and only straightened out when ready to roll.

Cocking is just very slow (perhaps stationary) S-truning.

As for most of us, if you don't take the runway until it's clear, that shouldn't be an issue.

Just because it was clear when you turned on the runway doesn't mean it stayed clear.

 

[poadeleted20]

I am familiar with flying tail draggers. No you don't want to S-turn at speed, but at speed you're also likely to have the tail up.

I don't think you want to do it at any speed on the takeoff roll after brake release.

Cocking is just very slow (perhaps stationary) S-truning.

Well, if that's how you see it, mighty fine. Me? I figure you have to be moving to be turning.

Just because it was clear when you turned on the runway doesn't mean it stayed clear.

You can only do so much. But I think you're way more likely to have an accident due to attempting to s-turn during the takeoff roll after taxiing onto a clear runway than due to not s-turning in the same situation.

 

[Flying_Nun]

http://youtu.be/ObCVWm55E94

 

[poadeleted20]

Loved the video -- brought back memories of the 1800 or so hours I flew out of Bowman myself. Turning base at the Lincoln Tower is a particular memory.

Kinda cool with the head-mounted camera so we can see where you're looking all the time, including watching the wingtips during pull out from the hangar and clearing before cranking. I also like seeing the headset off for the start so you can hear the engine, and seeing you check for traffic at each taxiway intersection.

Comments on the flight:

You were initially overshooting the left turn to final (and undershot the turn from the right side) with the left crosswind, although it got better later. Getting a good start is really helpful in making a better pattern. The other thing that improved through the flight was holding the left wing down after you corrected to centerline so you'd stay there -- earlier, you were tending to drop the wind to slip to the left to get on centerline, then leveling the wings and drifting right again.

The "s-turns" on the runway weren't that exciting, at least from my keyboard perspective, although it seemed that as you slowed, you didn't compensate for the reduced rudder effectiveness and that may be why you weather-vaned to the left as you slowed, especially on the first 3 or 4 landings. As you slow, the weathervaning effect increases while rudder effectiveness decreases, so there's a constantly increasing rudder displacement needed to keep going straight.

All in all, looked real good to me for TW lesson #2.

 

[Flying_Nun]

Thanks, Ron.

Not sure how I feel about the head mount. Seems like too much movin' around. I agree seeing the lack of directional control in the video, it doesn't look that bad. But rolling down the runway at 30 or 40 MPH it felt like I was going to take out an edge light.