Yep.
The Russian M14 radial does - as used on Yaks and Sukhois. This was not a Russian engine or airplane. It was a Rotax 912. Rotates just like a Lycoming.
Russian accident video...
- Thread starter dans2992
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Yep.
The Russian M14 radial does - as used on Yaks and Sukhois. This was not a Russian engine or airplane. It was a Rotax 912. Rotates just like a Lycoming.
I know Russian helicopter blades turn the opposite from western helicopters.
Do Russian airplane engines turn reverse from the west?
EDIT: Looks like not.
The M-14 radial does. That engine is a Wright Cyclone 1820 design.
KeithASanford
Line Up and Wait
General consensus seems to point to the Instructor not managing the airspeed. Some of the comments seem to make reference to the flaps not being cleaned up as well. Sad.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
This is supposed to be a picture of the accident scene.
I found it on this page:
http://rt.com/news/202467-plane-crash-russia-camera/
Looks like flaps are down. I did see a comment, somewhere, that speculated that the way they turned off centerline almost looked like they were trying to avoid oncoming traffic. Dunno.
Attachments
There's a whole lot more than airspeed that this "instructor" didn't manage.
mtuomi
En-Route
Eurostar is a very easy plane to land. Somehow nothing the instructor does makes any sense.
No-one has a hand on the throttle until the last few feet, then a go-around (which by the way on an eurostar can cause a surprising amount of yaw due to the big vertical stabilizer, especially if there's any control input to induce yaw to the left). Then he pulls back on the throttle while the student pulls up. Then just before the treeline he goes full throttle, but just look at that ASI when the student starts turning.
Eurostar doesn't have a stall warner, and its stall is pretty abrupt with very little aerodynamic feedback, but still that sort of control inputs should not be used that low down.
Can only think the Russian dancing juice had something to do with this.
edit: just noted this plane is equipped with dual throttles. Still, why on earth at 0:32 power is pulled back?
No-one has a hand on the throttle until the last few feet, then a go-around (which by the way on an eurostar can cause a surprising amount of yaw due to the big vertical stabilizer, especially if there's any control input to induce yaw to the left). Then he pulls back on the throttle while the student pulls up. Then just before the treeline he goes full throttle, but just look at that ASI when the student starts turning.
Eurostar doesn't have a stall warner, and its stall is pretty abrupt with very little aerodynamic feedback, but still that sort of control inputs should not be used that low down.
Can only think the Russian dancing juice had something to do with this.
edit: just noted this plane is equipped with dual throttles. Still, why on earth at 0:32 power is pulled back?
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FastEddieB
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Sorry.
I was not talking about the power required to overpower the rudder.
Just the power needed to start the nose yawing left in the first place, which is often all it takes to get pointed towards the trees, which then in turn precipitates improper or insufficient correction.
That does not require an inordinate amount of power.
No, but it is easily controllable through proper use of control inputs which the instructor neglected. He also neglected in the securing of the flaps. He was in no condition to respond to the requirements of serving as a CFI for whatever reason. This accident has so many errors in it it's hard to find where to begin.
FastEddieB
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Right here is where I'm pretty confident I would have been primed to rapidly lower the nose and slam in however much rudder was required to keep the plane pointed down the runway.
I know this because I've been there many times before. I suspect most instructors who have taught in high performance planes have seen this view repeatedly as well, and are prepared to take firm action. If they weren't there's a good chance they'd no longer be among the living!
I know this because I've been there many times before. I suspect most instructors who have taught in high performance planes have seen this view repeatedly as well, and are prepared to take firm action. If they weren't there's a good chance they'd no longer be among the living!
I just watched that video a couple more times, and I can't see a reason for the instructor to hit the throttle in the first instance. Was it going to be a greaser? No, but it would have been an acceptable if firm landing. They actually made the landing and sustained the primary impact by the time he hit the throttle. They were fully stalled so it wasn't like he was going to porpoise. He was on the runway and correctly aligned and stable to roll right out with no more than a "damn, that was a bit hard"; but then the CFI pushed in the throttle and neither the student nor the plane were ready to go and he didn't assume command, and when he did, he acted inappropriately.
Chose your CFI wisely.
Chose your CFI wisely.
In some airplanes perhaps, but not this one. But still, this NOT what happened in this video.
dell30rb
Final Approach
I would have done the same thing. Except for the part about running off the runway.
It's not like you need to firewall it. Opening the throttle to maybe 1/8 is enough to cushion a landing.
hindsight2020
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The sheer level of incompetence, in light of such a benign aircraft and set of conditions, is right about criminal....
mirage00
Pattern Altitude
The instructor looks completely disoriented. I don't think he knew he was so far to the left of the runway which is why he retarded the throttle to settle back down. Once he noticed the position, he went full throttle again but did not take control of the stick. Scary stuff. RIP
mtuomi
En-Route
I think he was so drunk the first moment he realised something was wrong was when his face hit the canopy.
Exactly, show him to add a little power, but he was late regardless, they had already smacked down, that's where he should have chopped power, not added it. The extra flare at the end is what caused the problem. He had a decent landing attitude he should have refrained from pulling back further and letting it settle further into ground effect.
That's only the first, and least unforgivable link in the chain. The most egregious is taking one control over and not the rest. Control exchange should always be positive and there is only one person in command at a time. He failed to take control soon enough, he failed to retract the flaps to try and climb in a low power aircraft (and he didn't look light), he removed power in a situation that did not warrant the reduction in power for any reason, then he flew the plane out of energy in a steep turn and stalled in in a basic lack of airmanship. This guy killed a perfectly good student by abysmally failing at his contracted duties.
The lesson to take away from this is for CFIs, when you make input changes you need to be ready to react to the appropriately if needed, and if needed there should be a positive change of controls to come along with it. The current model of training does not have the initial Student/CFI relationship as a 'pro team cockpit' model. The student does until the CFI needs to save it. At that point the CFI needs to establish a stabilized post recovery situation before returning the controls.
The reason he likely reduced the power because time wise, that much full power climb would have given them plenty of altitude, thing is he wasn't accounting for full flaps dragging.
I wonder if they BAC checked him.
I wonder if they BAC checked him.
dmspilot
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Actually the first mistake would be having the student use the wrong hand to fly the airplane during approach and not having a hand on the throttle.
Why would time matter, can the instructor not look outside or at the altimeter, or is he blind?
My vote is that the instructor is either drunk, has some major physical impairment, or is grossly unqualified to even be a pilot let alone an instructor.
Why would time matter, can the instructor not look outside or at the altimeter, or is he blind?
My vote is that the instructor is either drunk, has some major physical impairment, or is grossly unqualified to even be a pilot let alone an instructor.
bfergie10
Pre-Flight
I'm pretty sure the student's hand was on the throttle.
mtuomi
En-Route
Yep, dual throttles, students left hand is on the throttle.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Its a dual throttle, the student had a throttle on the other side.
I re-watched the video and I think the initial application of throttle is timely to smooth out a landing that might be rough if the student flared high and was going to drop it in. But it appears he went in with full throttle or close to it and then failed to give it enough rudder to keep the plane straight. It was not necessary and he obviously got way behind the plane at that point.
What happens next is anyone's guess. I'm thinking the nose blocked him from sensing how close he was to the treeline. That looks like a little 100hp plane no real reason to back off the throttle though.
Does appear he forgot to put the flaps up, but it looked like the plane had enough power and was light enough to climb okay with them down.
dmspilot
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So there is one on the left and one in the middle? Weird plane.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's a good observation. From their perspective, below the camera, they might not have seen the trees as easily as the video suggests. But the trees just broke their fall - and it looked like they spooked the pilots right at the end.
mtuomi
En-Route
Visibility straight ahead from an Eurostar is just fine. Not an excuse there.
I still think its the Russian dancing juice.
I still think its the Russian dancing juice.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Watch the throttle and pitch. Few seconds before the crash, instructor firewalls it and pitches up. The nose starts going left and he holds too high of a pitch. It turns into a power on stall/spin.
He only reduces throttle for a few seconds. Either he didn't see the trees or was so far behind he lost situational awareness.
I wouldn't rule out the vodka either
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Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
I've seen it plenty of times. I can't figure out why they don't seem too concerned about trees between them and sky until the last second.
AdamZ
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Looks like someone forgot to clean up the flaps. I'm trying to figure out what the instructor was trying to do.
Get himself and the other guy Killed!
I question this as well. Such a stupid maneuver.
This pretty much sums it up. The guy on the right just firewalled the throttle with no notice to the guy in the left seat. What the hell was he doing?
Student did have his left hand on the throttle like a normal stick flown plane.
Most likely drunk operating on muscle memory.
Witmo
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Tim
I watched that one too. The tower f'd up big time clearing the accident Cirrus to land long without telling him he was number two to land behind the other Cirrus on a straight in. The tower was incompetent. You don't clear two aircraft to land on the same runway without clarifying the order and ensuring the players have each other in sight. Sequencing aircraft is their job.
Clark1961
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Yup, ATC made a mistake which was followed by a pilot making a couple mistakes. We all make mistakes. It's our job as pilots to not let a mistake kill us. That video was a good reminder...
mtuomi
En-Route
In Europe you do not clear two planes to land, ever. You only clear the nr2 to land after nr1 has vacated (or is sufficiently far along the runway, there were some rules for that).
mtuomi
En-Route
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Here's that spin sequence from Stick and Rudder:
I would venture to say that virtually pilot that ever spun like that would have said, prior to the incident, that that would never happen to them. Pride goeth before a fall and all that.
But like #3 says, "The most powerful impulse in all of flying is to jerk the stick to the right rear corner in an attempt to lift the low wing and the nose at the same time." That's what I think can end up being a reflex that overpowers conscious thought.
Ok, so you get to the point of the third picture, left wing begins dropping, you are stalled, what is the proper recovery here? I say stick forward, ailerons neutral and stomp right rudder to bring the left wing up, followed by more power as soon as the wing starts flying again. Correct?
Cpt_Kirk
En-Route
Is he improving?
