Runway ops while runup area occupied?

lionclaw

lionclaw

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Is there a FAR (or common practice) for runway ops at an uncontrolled field while a runup area at the departure end of the runway is occupied?

Does the plane in the runup area "own" the runway? Can/should another plane land or takeoff while the runup area is occupied?

My home field has a runup area at one end of the runway. It is to the left of the runway, and planes must back-taxi to get to it.
 
lionclaw said:
Is there a FAR (or common practice) for runway ops at an uncontrolled field while a runup area at the departure end of the runway is occupied?

Does the plane in the runup area "own" the runway? Can/should another plane land or takeoff while the runup area is occupied?

My home field has a runup area at one end of the runway. It is to the left of the runway, and planes must back-taxi to get to it.
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Common sense would suggest that the aircraft in the runup area look for arriving aircraft before pulling out onto the runway - but as always, expect the unexpected.

No one "owns" the runway at an uncontrolled field. Someone who back taxi's and then proceeds to hang out to do a runup off to the side would expect other aircraft to be landing (or even departing from an intersection) while the runupper is dinking around. If one were not comfortable watching other aircraft landing while sitting in the runup area, then one would either not sit and do runups at the end of the runway or would pick a time when there is no one in the area to back taxi.
 
1- If you are landing, you own the runway.....
2- If you are on the runway side of the hold short line, you own the runway.
3- If you are in the run up area you don't own much..:nonod:

YMMV.
 
When you are in the rup-up area your not using the runway so everyone else can take off or land on it.
If the run-up area is taken and you still got to do the runway I recommend just doing it on the taxiway (make sure no one is behind you).

When your using the runway to taxi back it's yours, but as soon as you get off it to do the run-up everyone else can use it.
 
The runup area is on the runway side of the hold short line, which is where my confusion comes from.

I'm mainly interested in doing what's safe, and not upsetting anyone at the airpark.

Yesterday another plane was in the runup area. Normally there's plenty of space to use the runway, but they were doing their runup with their tail right up to the runway, and aimed at the threshold. I thought trying to flair right where another plane's prop blast was going might make for a tricky landing, and decided to go around.
 
Lots of places have little pads that have no official markings off the side of the end of the runway. Official markings show up as airports grow and take grant money with strings attached.
 
MachFly said:
So everyone does their runup on the actual runway?
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No, to get to the runup area you have to cross the yellow hold marker onto the runway and back taxi to the end. The runup area is to the side of the end of the runway, but there aren't any markings separating it from the runway.

So maybe that makes it part of the runway?
 
lionclaw said:
No, to get to the runup area you have to cross the yellow hold marker onto the runway and back taxi to the end. The runup area is to the side of the end of the runway, but there aren't any markings separating it from the runway.

So maybe that makes it part of the runway?
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I see. I don't normally fly to such small airports so it's hard to say. Just logically thinking what DenverPilot said seems to make seance.
 
N801BH said:
1- If you are landing, you own the runway.....
2- If you are on the runway side of the hold short line, you own the runway.
3- If you are in the run up area you don't own much..:nonod:

YMMV.
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That pretty much sums it up.
 
If the 'runup area' bumpout radius as you describe it is on the "runway" side of the line, then that's NOT a runup area: its a turning area thats part of the runway environment designed to let you have more space to turn the aircraft around after back taxi to the departure end.
 
DutchessFlier said:
If the 'runup area' bumpout radius as you describe it is on the "runway" side of the line, then that's NOT a runup area: its a turning area thats part of the runway environment designed to let you have more space to turn the aircraft around after back taxi to the departure end.
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Agree. Personally I would not do a run-up in that area and I think you made the right choice by going around.

Situation. Lets say the run-up area is to your right when you are on short final (since I don't know what the configuration is at that specific field) and this person is doing a runup with their tail pointing at the centerline (crosswind from the right).

What if they finish their runup while you are 50ft agl and turn to their left to enter the runway? They might never see you (though they should have checked final, high-wing could block you from view) and turn onto the runway right in front of you or worse yet right into you.

Thats a bad situation to be in.

Edit to add: I would however feel comfortable landing with someone in that area as long as they were on the radio and I had confirmed with them that they would not pull out until I cleared the runway.
 
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lionclaw said:
Is there a FAR (or common practice) for runway ops at an uncontrolled field while a runup area at the departure end of the runway is occupied?

Does the plane in the runup area "own" the runway? Can/should another plane land or takeoff while the runup area is occupied?

My home field has a runup area at one end of the runway. It is to the left of the runway, and planes must back-taxi to get to it.
Click to expand...

What would be the purpose of the runup area if the runway could not be used while the runup area is occupied?
 
lionclaw said:
The runup area is on the runway side of the hold short line, which is where my confusion comes from.
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What's on the other side? In your first message you said planes must back-taxi to get to the runup area. What airport is this?
 
mpess said:
Agree. Personally I would not do a run-up in that area and I think you made the right choice by going around.

Situation. Lets say the run-up area is to your right when you are on short final (since I don't know what the configuration is at that specific field) and this person is doing a runup with their tail pointing at the centerline (crosswind from the right).

What if they finish their runup while you are 50ft agl and turn to their left to enter the runway? They might never see you (though they should have checked final, high-wing could block you from view) and turn onto the runway right in front of you or worse yet right into you.

Thats a bad situation to be in.

Edit to add: I would however feel comfortable landing with someone in that area as long as they were on the radio and I had confirmed with them that they would not pull out until I cleared the runway.
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If you are at 50 feet agl on short final and the run up plane is pointing its tail at the runway my guess is you have enough time to land, taxi off the active and have your plane halfway into the hangar by the time they take the active.:dunno::dunno::dunno:
 
N801BH said:
If you are at 50 feet agl on short final and the run up plane is pointing its tail at the runway my guess is you have enough time to land, taxi off the active and have your plane halfway into the hangar by the time they take the active.:dunno::dunno::dunno:
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Most of the time yes, but not if thats the moment he decides to swing it around and onto the runway.
 
i think you're thinking about this way too hard. i'd plan on a normal landing with normal radio calls and normal everything else. then if the person pulls out in front of me i'd go around.
 
This doesn't sound like a runup area... it sounds like a turnaround jughandle so that if a plane lands they can have a wide turn to reverse direction and back-taxi to the ramp.

But a picture or sketch would clear it up. Heck, tell us the airport and we can look at it in GoogleEarth.
 
OK with that, you've got a turnout area in the displaced threshold.. So technically that's not a landing part of the runway.

I'd still do my runup before taking the runway, and may use the other area for the turn-around.
 
lionclaw said:
The runup area is on the runway side of the hold short line, which is where my confusion comes from.
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There is no FAR which says you can't have two planes on the runway at the same time, so as long as safe separation is maintained, there's nothing which says an airplane can't land on the runway while another plane is running up in that run-up area even if that area is on the runway side of the hold short line.

Where you'd have a problem is if the pilot doing the runup off the actual runway itself (even if on the runway side of the hold short line) decides s/he "owns" the runway and pulls out in front of a plane on short final, forcing that other plane to go around. In that case, I have little doubt the FAA, if they became involved, would find the departing pilot who forced the other plane to go around had violated 91.119(g).

So, at the end of the day, as with pretty much everything else at nontowered airports, it's a matter of the three C's: courtesy, communications, and common sense.
 
DutchessFlier said:
If the 'runup area' bumpout radius as you describe it is on the "runway" side of the line, then that's NOT a runup area: its a turning area thats part of the runway environment designed to let you have more space to turn the aircraft around after back taxi to the departure end.
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Not always. I've seen places where the run-up area is inside the runway safety zone (i.e., on the runway side of the hold short lines), and it's a real run-up area, not just a "bumpout" for turnaround. The FAA doesn't like it much, but it happens.

BTW, the "hold short" lines do not define the runway itself, but rather the "runway safety area," which is a different thing entirely. Other than at tower-controlled airports, where the hold short lines become required separation from the controller's perspective, there's nothing saying you must go around at a nontowered airport if there's an airplane with its tail still sticking over the hold short line unless you, the pilot, feel that safety is compromised.
 
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roncachamp said:
I19 is Greene County Airport, Moraine Airpark is I73.

I wouldn't call that area at the end of the runway a runup area, I'd do my runup on the taxiway.
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I get all the identifiers mixed up in my head. Too bad they can't all be letters.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, the "hold short" lines do not define the runway itself, but rather the "runway safety area," which is a different thing entirely. Other than at tower-controlled airports, where the hold short lines become required separation from the controller's perspective, there's nothing saying you must go around at a nontowered airport if there's an airplane with its tail still sticking over the hold short line unless you, the pilot, feel that safety is compromised.
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An aircraft which is exiting or crossing is considered to be clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are beyond the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking.
 
Yeah, I agree that's not a runup area and that you're making it too complicated. If an aircraft is sitting there and it interferes with your landing, go around. If it doesn't, then don't. And if I am ready to takeoff and somebody is just sitting there, I am taking off. Of course, negotiating right-of-way over the radio is a good idea any time it's ambiguous.
 
roncachamp said:
An aircraft which is exiting or crossing is considered to be clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are beyond the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking.
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Can you tell us where you got that definition, and the situations in which it applies as a restriction? I'm pretty sure it is not the limiting factor in determining whether runway separation standards are met at towered airports where the aircraft must be completely across the hold short line for an aircraft to removed from consideration, and it has little or no meaning at nontowered airports where pilots decide for themselves what separation is sufficient.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Can you tell us where you got that definition, and the situations in which it applies as a restriction? I'm pretty sure it is not the limiting factor in determining whether runway separation standards are met at towered airports where the aircraft must be completely across the hold short line for an aircraft to removed from consideration, and it has little or no meaning at nontowered airports where pilots decide for themselves what separation is sufficient.
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It can be found in a somewhat obscure document called the Pilot/Controller Glossary:


CLEAR OF THE RUNWAY−

a. Taxiing aircraft, which is approaching a runway, is clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are held short of the applicable runway
holding position marking.

b. A pilot or controller may consider an aircraft, which is exiting or crossing a runway, to be clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are beyond the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking.

c. Pilots and controllers shall exercise good judgement to ensure that adequate separation exists between all aircraft on runways and taxiways at airports with inadequate runway edge lines or holding position markings.
 
Dallas Airpark (F69) just north of KADS has the same thing. Local custom is to do your runup on the taxiway (if you live/hangar on the West side of the runway) or on the grass (East side), then back taxi and use the bumpout to turn around while taking a last 360 look around the pattern, making final checks, etc.

Not much traffic there when I've been in/out, so I'm not sure what I'd do in the situation you mention other than to recognize that a landing plane has the right of way even if I'm in the bumpout and to keep my eyes (and ears) WIDE open and moving. And, of course, spend as little time as possible with my back to final.
 
roncachamp said:
It can be found in a somewhat obscure document called the Pilot/Controller Glossary:


CLEAR OF THE RUNWAY−

a. Taxiing aircraft, which is approaching a runway, is clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are held short of the applicable runway
holding position marking.

b. A pilot or controller may consider an aircraft, which is exiting or crossing a runway, to be clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are beyond the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking.

c. Pilots and controllers shall exercise good judgement to ensure that adequate separation exists between all aircraft on runways and taxiways at airports with inadequate runway edge lines or holding position markings.
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And are you going to tell us how that affects 1) the legalities involving runway separation for aircraft taking off and landing at towered airports, and 2) the regulations for operations at nontowered airports?

It doesn't, does it?:rolleyes:
 
Ron Levy said:
And are you going to tell us how that affects 1) the legalities involving runway separation for aircraft taking off and landing at towered airports, and 2) the regulations for operations at nontowered airports?
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What, exactly, do you want to know?

It doesn't, does it?:rolleyes:
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Of course it does.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm pretty sure it is not the limiting factor in determining whether runway separation standards are met at towered airports where the aircraft must be completely across the hold short line for an aircraft to removed from consideration
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That is not actually true.

From a controller standpoint (as Roncachamp pointed out), the aircraft only needs to be clear of the white line boundary of the runway for the controller to be able to clear another aircraft to depart.

The only guidance to clear past the hold short lines is from the AIM which tells us pilots to taxi beyond the hold short lines before contacting ground.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is not actually true.

From a controller standpoint (as Roncachamp pointed out), the aircraft only needs to be clear of the white line boundary of the runway for the controller to be able to clear another aircraft to depart.

The only guidance to clear past the hold short lines is from the AIM which tells us pilots to taxi beyond the hold short lines before contacting ground.
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AIM 4−3−20. Exiting the Runway After Landing

b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the runway holding position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.
 
roncachamp said:
AIM 4−3−20. Exiting the Runway After Landing

b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the runway holding position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.
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Any questions about the guidance provided to pilots?
 
57D has the exact same sort of thing -- bumpouts at both ends of the runway. On the approach end of 27 it is behind the displaced threshold, so it is not a landing area anyway, however this is not true on the approach end of 9. Regardless, the local custom is to do runups there, at least during summer months when folks are landing and taking off on 18/36, since there isn't a parallel taxiway (yet) and the ramp by the pumps is small enough and close enough to the terminal building that it's inconsiderate to do it there.

I wrote "yet" because they are in the process of putting a taxiway in. Some folks there are convinced that the FAA not only "doesn't like it much" the way it is, but that it violates some FAR or other to have two planes on the runway at once. No one has been able to point to exactly which FAR it violates, though. Not that it really matters, since no one likes the setup as it is and the taxiway should be one of the best things to ever happen to the place.
 
Even the FAA controllers at towered airports are allowed to put two aircraft on one runway if they deem it safe. (In daylight hours anyway...)
 
Ron Levy said:
Any questions about the guidance provided to pilots?
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The guidance provided to pilots was not the issue, the subject here is ATC runway separation requirements at towered airports. You said the exiting aircraft had to be beyond the hold short lines when actually it need only be beyond the runway edge as long as its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking is not restricted.
 
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