Runway Incursion at uncontrolled field

U

Unregistered

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I am a student pilot that is in my unsupervised solo phase.

This morning I went out to get some practice in after a few missed days due to weather. During the taxi from the parking area to the runway there was some activity that caused me to pay more attention to the ground than I normally would. There was an aircraft that was parking, another coming off the runway heading to the hangars and there was one pilot pushing his plane to the parking area from the fuel pump. This is at a smaller uncontrolled airport and this was more than usual ground movement.

After making my way past the traffic jam around the fuel pump intersection I proceeded to taxi to the runway and stopped short of the hold short line and performed my runup checks. All during this time there were no radio calls in the pattern and after finalizing my runup I performed a scan for aircraft. I did not see any aircraft in the pattern and began to taxi out to the runway when I noticed a NORDO aircraft approaching the threshold low on final for a grass landing next to the runway. At that point I stopped short of the run way but past the hold short line and the other aircraft performed a go-around.

The best I can tell I missed the traffic for 2 reasons. 1) the sunshade was drawn about 3/4 of the way due to the low sun and 2) I was looking for traffic in expected positions on base and final. Due to the angle and the offset approach I did not see or register in my mind the traffic. There was likely also some confirmation bias in my visual scan as well as I performed the scan not expecting to find any traffic as there were no call from aircraft in the pattern.

I am still kicking myself for letting it happen, but I am glad that I still had some luck in my bucket to draw upon while I fill my experience bucket. I learned a few things about scanning for traffic for sure. I think the biggest thing is that you cant assume that traffic will be where you expect it to be (and open the canopy sunshade).
 
Congratulations -- you made a mistake, you learned from it, and you aren't afraid to share your story so others can learn to avoid that mistake without making it themselves. Well Done! Now go, and sin no more.
 
Nothing to kick yourself over. Both you and the other pilot did exactly when you were supposed to. See and avoid.
 
I am assuming this was a uncontrolled field??? There is a possibility the AC on final never announced anything. But you lived, you learned, you now know.
 
I did not see any mistakes being made. The other plane was NORDO or so you think, he could have just as easily been broadcasting on the wrong frequency.

He was what you appeared to you when you saw him, low on approach the grass. You were looking at a normal glide path location for traffic to you're runway. You learned to expand where you look for traffic.

I'm sure his go around had nothing to do with you crossing a hold line at a non-towered airport. I don't think there can be a "runway incursion" at a non towered airport. An incursion implies crossing a line without a clearance. No clearance is required at a non towered airport.
 
If you're so inclined, file and ASRS report (http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html; or hard copy equivalent)

They are read, compiled, and if a persistent pattern affecting safety is discovered, action may be taken to correct. Although unlikely that you may need it here, filing the ASRS report may also grant you a waiver of any sanction that the FAA seeks to impose for the conduct involved.
 
I don't even see a mistake. You looked. You didn't see anything. You used the radio and nobody said anything. You did all you could do and all you should do. Sometimes, things like this happen and it nobody's fault, and nobody's wrongdoing. The landing pilot was looking out, you were looking out, you saw each other, and acted accordingly. Lovely day.
 
There are two lessons to learn here.

1. You know what yoiu did. Be more careful, look twice in the future.
2. The pilot on final didn't like what he saw and did a go around. Study what he did and why. It may save your live someday.
 
Expect the unexpected at an uncontrolled field. I've seen two planes landing in opposite directions for the same rwy; one had a radio, one didn't. I've seen a plane coming in over the threshold, making calls, and a NORDO plane not see him and pull out onto the rwy without seeing the other guy in the sun. I've pulled onto 36 for takeoff, just in time to see a spray plane pop over the trees and land on 18.

It can get exciting.
 
Ron Levy said:
Congratulations -- you made a mistake, you learned from it, and you aren't afraid to share your story so others can learn to avoid that mistake without making it themselves. Well Done! Now go, and sin no more.
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The above reply pretty much sums it up. You will make a change in behavior due to experience. That means you have learned.
 
Zeldman said:
The above reply pretty much sums it up. You will make a change in behavior due to experience. That means you have learned.
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I don't know about that. Based on the description, I don't see any mistakes to correct.
 
Thanks, I would say that I learned a few things for sure.

First I am sure that my visual scan was probably quicker than it would have been had there been traffic on the radio. Again I am sure there was confirmation bias going on there. It also was the first time I have encountered aircraft landing in the grass and in all honesty I was not looking in the right place for that kind of traffic looking back at it. I will keep a better eye out going forward that is for sure.

Later I ended up doing a go around because they were ahead of me in the pattern and landed on the grass and I wasn't sure exactly what their intentions were nor if they even knew I was on final behind them being that they were not making calls. So i plan on talking with my instructor to get some more information on what is expected for grass ops at that particular field as they are not that uncommon. There are a few older tail draggers that drill holes in the sky located here. This is just my first time sharing the pattern with them
 
Unregistered said:
Thanks, I would say that I learned a few things for sure.

First I am sure that my visual scan was probably quicker than it would have been had there been traffic on the radio. Again I am sure there was confirmation bias going on there. It also was the first time I have encountered aircraft landing in the grass and in all honesty I was not looking in the right place for that kind of traffic looking back at it. I will keep a better eye out going forward that is for sure.

Later I ended up doing a go around because they were ahead of me in the pattern and landed on the grass and I wasn't sure exactly what their intentions were nor if they even knew I was on final behind them being that they were not making calls. So i plan on talking with my instructor to get some more information on what is expected for grass ops at that particular field as they are not that uncommon. There are a few older tail draggers that drill holes in the sky located here. This is just my first time sharing the pattern with them
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Sounds to me like you are making some excellent judgments while flying. Keep it up. And talking to your CFI about that field is a good idea. Keep learning, keep asking questions. And best of luck in your continued training.
 
On my PP checkride, I did a landing with a full stop, ran the checklist, made the radio call and taxied out over the numbers when I saw the skydive jump plane take the runway at the other end. The first thing that went through my mind was that it was game over if the examiner took control. I immediately did a 180, cleared the runway and made a radio call announcing that I was clear. I was turned around before the examiner knew what was going on. He gave me some faint praise, some hard words towards the jump plane, and cut me a little bit of slack on my soft field landing technique.
 
Was taking the preferred runway this afternoon,using the radio,had just crossed intersecting runway,after announcing. As I was taxiing into position for takeoff,noticed another aircraft take off on the intersecting runway. During the whole event the other pilot never used his radio. I double checked the comm freqs to make sure I was on the right channel. You learned an important point today.
 
Seems to me if he was landing on the grass next to the runway it's almost like parallel runways were being used. Nothing wrong with lining up and waiting for parallel landing traffic. :)
 
tehmightypirate said:
Seems to me if he was landing on the grass next to the runway it's almost like parallel runways were being used. Nothing wrong with lining up and waiting for parallel landing traffic. :)
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Not Me. I would just hold short and wait for the landing traffic. What if he decided to change runways for what ever reason?
 
tehmightypirate said:
Seems to me if he was landing on the grass next to the runway it's almost like parallel runways were being used. Nothing wrong with lining up and waiting for parallel landing traffic. :)
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Except you can't see the landing traffic when you do that.

Extremely vulnerable.

There is very little reason to ever "line up and wait" at a non towered airport. There is a real good reason not to -- no one but you can be depended upon to provide separation.

But doing so is not an "incursion." There is no such thing without an operating control tower.
 
I call TROLL on this thread.

Student Pilots don't use fancy terms like, "confirmation bias", and you did so in both of your unregistered posts.

:D
 
Remember this when approaching on short final. Its easy for a plane on the ground to miss you on short final; maintain situational awareness and always be ready to make a go-around.
 
While the regs express a PREFERENCE in who should yield to whom, note there's an overriding regulation that says all aircraft shall avoid collision hazards. KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN at all phases of the flight.
 
Glad you saw him and stopped and glad he went around. Problem solved.

I had a kind of similar experience once, did my run up and was about to cross the HS line when I looked one more time for traffic on final and lo and behold, here was a NORDO plane, coming in hot turning from base onto final with maybe 500ft to the runway. That's why I couldn't see him earlier.
Glad I saw him and stopped. He landed and broadcast "not clear of the rwy, I just ran out of fuel". So he wasn't NORDO, he was just not talking. *shrug* But lucky for both of us, I saw him. If I hadn't and taxied onto the runway, his go-around would not have had a happy ending, I gather.

Thing happen, we correct them, when we can, we learn and move on.
 
BigBadLou said:
Glad you saw him and stopped and glad he went around. Problem solved.

I had a kind of similar experience once, did my run up and was about to cross the HS line when I looked one more time for traffic on final and lo and behold, here was a NORDO plane, coming in hot turning from base onto final with maybe 500ft to the runway. That's why I couldn't see him earlier.
Glad I saw him and stopped. He landed and broadcast "not clear of the rwy, I just ran out of fuel". So he wasn't NORDO, he was just not talking. *shrug* But lucky for both of us, I saw him. If I hadn't and taxied onto the runway, his go-around would not have had a happy ending, I gather.

Thing happen, we correct them, when we can, we learn and move on.
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Stupid pilot tricks will eventually catch up with stupid pilots. It just wasn't in the cards for his blood to be on your hands.
 
Troll or not, true or not, it was actually a good post. The part about confirmation bias makes me realize I have a tendency to do this at my home airport. If I'm not hearing anything on the CTAF, then I'll check final briefly, but I'm really not looking as closely as I should because I've already assumed nobody is there.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I call TROLL on this thread.

Student Pilots don't use fancy terms like, "confirmation bias", and you did so in both of your unregistered posts.

:D
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don't get that. A given student pilot could easily be a practicing psychologist for all we know.
 
JHW said:
don't get that. A given student pilot could easily be a practicing psychologist for all we know.
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Sure can. But it's not common for new people to borrow language from their profession and import it into aviaiton to describe a phenomenon they're experiencing here. OTOH, If the guy is a bookworm, he would have found something more "FAA like".
 
Jaybird180 said:
Sure can. But it's not common for new people to borrow language from their profession and import it into aviaiton to describe a phenomenon they're experiencing here. OTOH, If the guy is a bookworm, he would have found something more "FAA like".
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That is a plausibility argument at best, and a very weak one. A lot of people outside the psychology profession are aware of the term "confirmation bias." I first learned the term on an Internet forum, and it was not a psychology forum. Picking out one or two details of a post and using them to confirm a speculation is itself an example of confirmation bias.

I also see no reason for assuming that student pilots are less likely to know and use the term than the rest of us.
 
Since there are doubts and I got a lot of good feedback, I will out myself.

Its not a troll post. As for the term confirmation bias, I wasnt aware it was such a foreign term.

As for the Deja Vu post, that is not mine.
 
Palmpilot said:
That is a plausibility argument at best, and a very weak one. A lot of people outside the psychology profession are aware of the term "confirmation bias." I first learned the term on an Internet forum, and it was not a psychology forum. Picking out one or two details of a post and using them to confirm a speculation is itself an example of confirmation bias.

I also see no reason for assuming that student pilots are less likely to know and use the term than the rest of us.
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Your argument arguing the suggestion of the troll thread was weak. Did you not see the smilie???:lol:
 
Jaybird180 said:
Your argument arguing the suggestion of the troll thread was weak. Did you not see the smilie???:lol:
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I saw the smilie in your first post on the subject, but your subsequent posts on the subject omitted it, and seemed to making a serious effort at supporting the "troll" speculation, so perhaps you can see why I was confused about your intent.

:D
 
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