Runway 35 or 17?

Runways are 6850 x 100 feet. No notice of any calm wind runway. Traffic patterns avoid overflying the city. Approach lights and Localizer available only for Runway 17. 4-light PAPI for both runways.

[Edit] Lots of the aircraft in the area are Cubs and others with no radio, so watching carefully is always a good idea.
 
You guys are afraid of landing with a 4 knot tailwind on a 6000 foot runway? Anything less than about 6 we use 4 because the approaches go there. I've probably landed with a tailwind 10 times in the last month and survived. If I was going into a 2800 foot strip things would be different but seriously? You know the Bo was probably 15 knots too fast anyway. If you're afraid of such docile conditions perhaps you need some remedial training. At winds as low as that they're usually variable and will be different in different areas of thr airport.
 
Z06_Mir said:
You guys are afraid of landing with a 4 knot tailwind on a 6000 foot runway? Anything less than about 6 we use 4 because the approaches go there. I've probably landed with a tailwind 10 times in the last month and survived. If I was going into a 2800 foot strip things would be different but seriously? You know the Bo was probably 15 knots too fast anyway. If you're afraid of such docile conditions perhaps you need some remedial training. At winds as low as that they're usually variable and will be different in different areas of thr airport.
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:yes::yes:......................;)
 
Z06_Mir said:
You guys are afraid of landing with a 4 knot tailwind on a 6000 foot runway? Anything less than about 6 we use 4 because the approaches go there. I've probably landed with a tailwind 10 times in the last month and survived. If I was going into a 2800 foot strip things would be different but seriously? You know the Bo was probably 15 knots too fast anyway. If you're afraid of such docile conditions perhaps you need some remedial training. At winds as low as that they're usually variable and will be different in different areas of thr airport.
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Its not a question of surviving, rather a matter of airmanship. The OP was using the wrong runway for T&Gs as I read the situation.

Playing follow the leader when the winds dictate using the opposite runway is bad airmanship, certainly bad situational awareness.
 
I don't know where some of you people fly, but all the places I've flown at, it is an everyday occurrence that a 5-knot wind is going to change direction every few minutes to the point that you might as well pick a runway by flipping a coin because no matter which you pick it's going to be "wrong" a short time later.
 
I can't really see the winds "dictating" much in this situation. Stronger winds or shorter runway, certainly, that would be different. Two airplanes chose a runway based on what the winds were when they got there. Winds shift slightly, Bonanza pilot shows up and announces he's the new sheriff in town. Like others have said, much better ways to handle the situation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Geico266 said:
Its not a question of surviving, rather a matter of airmanship. The OP was using the wrong runway for T&Gs as I read the situation.

Playing follow the leader when the winds dictate using the opposite runway is bad airmanship, certainly bad situational awareness.
Click to expand...

Again, that is kind of irrelevant to this thread. The issue was the attitude of the Bo pilot.
 
MyassisDragon said:
If I were approaching an airport (non towered) with the wind around 5 kt and shifting I would follow traffic already in the pattern. It sounds like there must be a town to the east if its RH Pattern on 17 and LH on 35 and for the guy landing not to know his local pattern AND berate two planes already in the pattern means he must have issues that go well beyond what you heard on the radio.

He should have asked you guys what the wind sock looked like, maybe it didn't match the ATIS, maybe you guys knew of different conditions?

Reminds me of when I got chewed out by some megalomaniac at a non towered airport (with instrument approaches) for landing straight in. His argument was there are planes that fly here without radios and you should never ever fly straight in.
Man I hope that cowboy who is too cheap to purchase a radio looks down final when on base for that Jet straight in on the RNAV approach.
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Which field?
 
Was going into a field Sunday,a citation called he was landing runway 31. While still inbound an aircraft declared he was doing a T&G on runway 23. I asked are they using runway 23 now. The answer was of course we are ever since the wind changed. Landed 23 don't know why the other pilot needed attitude.
 
MyassisDragon said:
Man I hope that cowboy who is too cheap to purchase a radio looks down final when on base for that Jet straight in on the RNAV approach.
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Why should they be forced to buy a radio when the flying they do does not require one?

I hope the cowboy who is flying into that type of field is actually LOOKING OUT THE WINDOW for those people who are exercising their right to fly without a radio.
 
EdFred said:
I think you need a refresher on that, yourself. I did the calcs, which is why I'm not buying it.
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It is a 12% difference off a reference speed of 53 kt so if he touches down at about that speed then, yes, it is 12%. I misread the OP and thought the wind was more like 70* off the runway heading, which would make the effect much more negligible.
 
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EdFred said:
I think you need a refresher on that, yourself. I did the calcs, which is why I'm not buying it.
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No prob, you quoted, I gave you the info you need to find the right answer. The most exact answer is 13.5% increase, but I rounded down. Who knows if the AWOS reports anything but less than 5kts.
 
alfadog said:
It is a 12% difference off a reference speed of 53 kt so if he touches down at about that speed then, yes, it is 12%. I misread the OP and thought the wind was more like 70* off the runway heading, which would make the effect much more negligible.
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And I was basing it off final approach speed since that's the speed you're actually flying at, and I'm pretty confident no one is flying a Bo at stall speed on final. Plus it's when you're airborne that you end up eating a lot of the runway if you don't hit it on the numbers.
 
Well, I'm not here to defend something I didn't say or write, but I said 12% difference in landing speed, which most reasonable people would be concerned with because that's the speed with which you have to slow the plane once it touches the runway surface. But - no prob, people read what they want to read.
 
Playing nice with other airplanes is part of good airmanship. I agree that playing "follow the leader" with a tailwind can be dangerous. However, we're talking a 3-4 kt tailwind as reported by the AWOS, which might be variable or might be nothing at all. The convenient thing to do is to go with the flow and land. In this case, there was a good reason why the airplanes started on that runway.

If you don't want to accept the 3-4 kts on your tail, that's fine too. But you'll have to work yourself in with the traffic or wait. Yelling at everyone else is very bad form.
 
docmirror said:
Well, I'm not here to defend something I didn't say or write, but I said 12% difference in landing speed, which most reasonable people would be concerned with because that's the speed with which you have to slow the plane once it touches the runway surface. But - no prob, people read what they want to read.
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Landing speed != touchdown speed to me.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Why should they be forced to buy a radio when the flying they do does not require one?

I hope the cowboy who is flying into that type of field is actually LOOKING OUT THE WINDOW for those people who are exercising their right to fly without a radio.
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My apologies, looks like I hit a nerve, was not intentional.

And yes this cowboy does look for planes in the pattern when I am on an instrument approach in MVFR weather regardless of radio chatter.

I should have elaborated on my off hand comment more but didn't want get too far off topic on this thread.

So I do agree on not being forced to do something when not required BUT I also wear a helmet while on a motorcycle and a seat belt while in a car regardless of the law. And some airport environments with some weather conditions lean toward the prudent choice of using a radio regardless of requirement for the safety of all involved.

It was during one of these times where I was berated for exercising my right of an instrument approach by someone who was telling me to cancel IFR (actually I do not think he knew what being on an IFR plan meant) and fly the pattern cause it was MVFR conditions and I needed to follow suit with pilots who may be out there without a radio.

So this unfortunate exchange left a bad feeling regarding pilots flying without radios. I know not fair, it was prejudice formed by a bad first encounter and I should be more accepting.

Again sorry if I had offended you.
 
EdFred said:
Landing speed != touchdown speed to me.
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Well, it is, and it's 12% higher just like I said(actually for my Bo it's 13.5%). I don't know where you got your "4kts swing" idea(you only missed by 37% of course), so it's clear you didn't have any idea how to calculate either appr speed, or landing speed, or headwind component, and it's inverse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing

If you don't like wiki, look up the refs at the bottom.
 
docmirror said:
Well, it is, and it's 12% higher just like I said(actually for my Bo it's 13.5%). I don't know where you got your "4kts swing" idea(you only missed by 37% of course), so it's clear you didn't have any idea how to calculate either appr speed, or landing speed, or headwind component, and it's inverse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing

If you don't like wiki, look up the refs at the bottom.
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So the landing process only happens after the wheels touch down? Got it. I guess that's why students only have problems after the wheels touch. Hmmmmm, doesn't seem right. Seems like all the "landing problems" occur from somewhere between base and touchdown.

The landing checklist doesn't start after the wheels touchdown, either. I can go on if you like.

14CFR1.1

Reference landing speed means the speed of the airplane, in a specified landing configuration, at the point where it descends through the 50 foot height in the determination of the landing distance.

Yeah, I'm sure you're doing 53kcas at the 50' mark.
 
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AuntPeggy said:
wind 070 @ 05. Chose Runway 35, then shifted to 120 @ 05,
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Wow, tough crowd here, your post may hit 4 pages.

Just for grins and giggles, I was thinking about being in this situation with direct crosswind and picking a pattern to do multiple touch and go practices and having the wind shift.

Would I have seen and felt these changes?

So I pulled out my E6B and ran the numbers.
On Runway 35 with wind at 070 @ 5kt = 4.9 Right Crosswind and 0.9 Headwind

On Runway 35 with wind at 120 @ 5kt = 3.8 Right Crosswind and 3.2 tailwind

I am not sure it would have been a huge noticeable difference for me, its shifting right cross wind less than 5 knots.
 
EdFred said:
So the landing process only happens after the wheels touch down? Got it. I guess that's why students only have problems after the wheels touch. Hmmmmm, doesn't seem right. Seems like all the "landing problems" occur from somewhere between base and touchdown.

The landing checklist doesn't start after the wheels touchdown, either. I can go on if you like.

14CFR1.1

Reference landing speed means the speed of the airplane, in a specified landing configuration, at the point where it descends through the 50 foot height in the determination of the landing distance.

Yeah, I'm sure you're doing 53kcas at the 50' mark.
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I'm glad we got that cleared up cause yeah, since my plane stalls at 48 I would be about 53 at the 50' mark.

Where you failed is with your "4kts swing" mishigoss. Also, the critical part of the landing for me in downwind is how much speed I'm carrying at the landing. In this case, it's 12% more than needed. Higher inertial, more braking, longer roll, etc. Face it, the OP was doing it wrong, the Bo was landing the right way, at 12% lower SPEED relative to the ground. I noticed you changed my literal "landing speed" to "reference landing speed" to try to spooge away your mistakes. :rofl:
 
docmirror said:
I'm glad we got that cleared up cause yeah, since my plane stalls at 48 I would be about 53 at the 50' mark.

Where you failed is with your "4kts swing" mishigoss. Also, the critical part of the landing for me in downwind is how much speed I'm carrying at the landing. In this case, it's 12% more than needed. Higher inertial, more braking, longer roll, etc. Face it, the OP was doing it wrong, the Bo was landing the right way, at 12% lower SPEED relative to the ground. I noticed you changed my literal "landing speed" to "reference landing speed" to try to spooge away your mistakes. :rofl:
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Have you considered decaf? Just a thought...
 
MyassisDragon said:
So I pulled out my E6B and ran the numbers.
On Runway 35 with wind at 070 @ 5kt = 4.9 Right Crosswind and 0.9 Headwind

On Runway 35 with wind at 120 @ 5kt = 3.8 Right Crosswind and 3.2 tailwind

I am not sure it would have been a huge noticeable difference for me, its shifting right cross wind less than 5 knots.
Click to expand...

docmirror said:
I'm glad we got that cleared up cause yeah, since my plane stalls at 48 I would be about 53 at the 50' mark.

Where you failed is with your "4kts swing" mishigoss. Also, the critical part of the landing for me in downwind is how much speed I'm carrying at the landing. In this case, it's 12% more than needed. Higher inertial, more braking, longer roll, etc. Face it, the OP was doing it wrong, the Bo was landing the right way, at 12% lower SPEED relative to the ground. I noticed you changed my literal "landing speed" to "reference landing speed" to try to spooge away your mistakes. :rofl:
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Can you add? I can.
 
OP was there first along with the other plane. The runway was established and the Bonanza should have followed or worked out a runway change in a non-prickish manner. Light and variable winds are that, and near perpendicular to the runway makes it moot.

To the OP, from your story you were right and the other guy not so much.
 
EdFred said:
Can you add? I can.
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I dunno. Ed ? I see you quoted my conbubulated garble so I will try to add
Isn't airspeed airspeed regardless of ground speed?

Last month I landed a plane in less than few hundred feet with a 30kt headwind but the airspeed indicated 60kt?

I'm a confused newbie sometimes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
So who thinks that when doing T&G's at a non-towered you should have the AWOS blaring in your ear so you know if the winds change 30*?



Not me. Apparently some of you think this is the "safe" procedure.

BTW, go practice with a tailwind sometime, 4-8 knots or so. You may find it necessary for safety to do it a time or two.
 
Z06_Mir said:
So who thinks that when doing T&G's at a non-towered you should have the AWOS blaring in your ear so you know if the winds change 30*?



Not me. Apparently some of you think this is the "safe" procedure.

BTW, go practice with a tailwind sometime, 4-8 knots or so. You may find it necessary for safety to do it a time or two.
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Agreed... Practice makes perfect.....

I fly out of a towered D and I bet 40% of my landings are with a tailwinds when the tower can squeeze me in between traffic.... :yes:
 
:nonod:
Captain said:
OP was there first along with the other plane. The runway was established and the Bonanza should have followed or worked out a runway change in a non-prickish manner. Light and variable winds are that, and near perpendicular to the runway makes it moot.

To the OP, from your story you were right and the other guy not so much.
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:yeahthat:
 
Z06_Mir said:
So who thinks that when doing T&G's at a non-towered you should have the AWOS blaring in your ear so you know if the winds change 30*?



Not me. Apparently some of you think this is the "safe" procedure.

BTW, go practice with a tailwind sometime, 4-8 knots or so. You may find it necessary for safety to do it a time or two.
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You can't look at the wind sock when in the pattern? :nono:
 
MyassisDragon said:
My apologies, looks like I hit a nerve, was not intentional.

And yes this cowboy does look for planes in the pattern when I am on an instrument approach in MVFR weather regardless of radio chatter.

I should have elaborated on my off hand comment more but didn't want get too far off topic on this thread.

So I do agree on not being forced to do something when not required BUT I also wear a helmet while on a motorcycle and a seat belt while in a car regardless of the law. And some airport environments with some weather conditions lean toward the prudent choice of using a radio regardless of requirement for the safety of all involved.

It was during one of these times where I was berated for exercising my right of an instrument approach by someone who was telling me to cancel IFR (actually I do not think he knew what being on an IFR plan meant) and fly the pattern cause it was MVFR conditions and I needed to follow suit with pilots who may be out there without a radio.

So this unfortunate exchange left a bad feeling regarding pilots flying without radios. I know not fair, it was prejudice formed by a bad first encounter and I should be more accepting.

Again sorry if I had offended you.
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I've taken off at an uncontrolled field to find myself climbing above a plane on long final for the opposite runway. I assumed on an instrument approach and not listening to CTAF, but I'm sure he had a radio. So the radio doesn't always help.
 
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MyassisDragon said:
I dunno. Ed ? I see you quoted my conbubulated garble so I will try to add
Isn't airspeed airspeed regardless of ground speed?

Last month I landed a plane in less than few hundred feet with a 30kt headwind but the airspeed indicated 60kt?

I'm a confused newbie sometimes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...

.9 headwind + 3.2 tailwind = 4.1kt groundspeed swing.
 
MyassisDragon said:
Wow, tough crowd here, your post may hit 4 pages.

Just for grins and giggles, I was thinking about being in this situation with direct crosswind and picking a pattern to do multiple touch and go practices and having the wind shift.

Would I have seen and felt these changes?

So I pulled out my E6B and ran the numbers.
On Runway 35 with wind at 070 @ 5kt = 4.9 Right Crosswind and 0.9 Headwind

On Runway 35 with wind at 120 @ 5kt = 3.8 Right Crosswind and 3.2 tailwind

I am not sure it would have been a huge noticeable difference for me, its shifting right cross wind less than 5 knots.
Click to expand...

The difference we are talking about is whether you take that 120 at 5 kt crosswind on the nose or on the tail. That makes a 6.4 kt difference and is where the 12% came in (6.4 is about 12% of 53).
 
Lindberg said:
I've taken off at an uncontrolled field to find myself climbing above a plane on long final for the opposite runway. I assumed on an instrument approach and not listening to CTAF, but I'm sure he had a radio. So the radio doesn't always help.
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Did he hit you? How do you know that he didn't listen for your departure call and see there was plenty of clearance. Seems like see and avoid worked in this instance and may have been aided by your radio calls. I make radio calls religiously whether or not anyone acknowledges hearing them. I still look out the window to make sure I don't run into someone. It's worked so far. If someone makes a position call and it helps me spot them, that's great but I'm sill looking out for the guy who doesn't have a radio or isn't using the one he has.
 
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