Rule proposing requiring a Class 2 medical for commercial balloon pilots is live & open for comments

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ProjectInfinity1

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I dream of a world where the FAA medical policies aren’t half a century out of date (looking at all the people who get screwed for admitting mental health struggles). And I think we get a bit closer to that goal of either heavily reforming or potentially doing away with a class 3 medical by showing strong opposition.

Expanding the FAA’s regulatory reach with little opposition, would (I’d argue) take us in the wrong direction when hoping for medical reform.

This could be used as a vehicle to show opposition to our current med system.

There has been no requirement for a ballon medical since 1962, now after one accident, we’re going to let the FAA regulate further and push the Overton window in a manner that could bite us in the ass later for lowering class 3 standards?


Let them know what you think,
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...n-standards-for-commercial-balloon-operations
 
I agree

And the cause of the accident was flying into IMC
 
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Senator Ted Cruz sponsored the "Commercial Balloon Pilot Safety Act of 2017" which added a paragraph into the 2018 FAA Reauthorization bill which required the FAA to make this rule.

The Lockhart pilot had a history of DUI's which he'd never reported and would've if he'd had to make medical applications. He took 14 people with him.

5 people died this summer in Albuquerque while flying with a pilot who had Marijuana and Cocaine in his system.

My understanding is that all of the reputable operators have been requiring their pilots to have 2nd class medicals for a while now. Insurance might be mandating it anyway.
 
tonycondon said:
Senator Ted Cruz sponsored the "Commercial Balloon Pilot Safety Act of 2017" which added a paragraph into the 2018 FAA Reauthorization bill which required the FAA to make this rule.

The Lockhart pilot had a history of DUI's which he'd never reported and would've if he'd had to make medical applications. He took 14 people with him.

5 people died this summer in Albuquerque while flying with a pilot who had Marijuana and Cocaine in his system.

My understanding is that all of the reputable operators have been requiring their pilots to have 2nd class medicals for a while now. Insurance might be mandating it anyway.
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So the cause was medical?
 
Brad Z said:
Read the NPRM. It describes how the Heart of Texas pilot’s medical history might have prevented him from holding a medical certificate.
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So what was the primary cause of the crash?

Was it medical?
 
The cause was terrible decision making...which was also apparent in his medical history
 
BladeSlap said:
So what was the primary cause of the crash?

Was it medical?
Click to expand...
According to the NTSB, the cause was poor decision making due in part to impairing medical conditions.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the pilot’s pattern of poor decision-making that led to the initial launch, continued flight in fog and above clouds, and descent near or through clouds that decreased the pilot’s ability to see and avoid obstacles. Contributing to the accident were (1) the pilot’s impairing medical conditions and medications and (2) the Federal Aviation Administration’s policy to not require a medical certificate for commercial balloon pilots.
Click to expand...
 
Clip4 said:
Nothing like submitting a comment and reading why the FAA disagrees and is going to do it anyway.
Click to expand...

In this case, there is signed legislation requiring it. The FAA doesn't really get a say in it, same way we got BasicMed despite the FAA not wanting to allow it.
 
tonycondon said:
Senator Ted Cruz sponsored the "Commercial Balloon Pilot Safety Act of 2017" which added a paragraph into the 2018 FAA Reauthorization bill which required the FAA to make this rule.

The Lockhart pilot had a history of DUI's which he'd never reported and would've if he'd had to make medical applications. He took 14 people with him.

5 people died this summer in Albuquerque while flying with a pilot who had Marijuana and Cocaine in his system.

My understanding is that all of the reputable operators have been requiring their pilots to have 2nd class medicals for a while now. Insurance might be mandating it anyway.
Click to expand...

Ted Cruz? That’s the second thing he’s done that I don’t like.
 
MauleSkinner said:
According to the NTSB, the cause was poor decision making due in part to impairing medical conditions.
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From what I read it was flying into IMC, he wasn’t drunk/high/having a heart attack, what flying IIMC has to do with medical branch is, uhhhh, reaching
 
MauleSkinner said:
Maybe they know some things about his condition that we don’t.
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So why wasn’t it listed as the cause of the accident?

Reminds me of those dudes confronted as fake seals, “sir your service record shows you were a cook” and they always come back with “well my record was classified” lol

The NTSB said the crash was due to IIMC, that’s not remotely medically related

Plus look at the LSA and basic med pilots, if the FAAs silly medical system was all that was holding us back from the gates of hell, it should be raining LSAs and Basic med pilots, but it’s not . The medical has been debunked, and this looks like a sad example of the FAA medical trying to stay relevant “look at me!! I’m still important”

How about work on being able to simply answer a phone before you try to take on more responsibility FAA
 
BladeSlap said:
The medical has been debunked, and this looks like a sad example of the FAA medical trying to stay relevant “look at me!! I’m still important”
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I'll say it again for those in the cheap seats. The FAA is only doing what Congress is making them do. This is not coming from the FAA leadership, this was in a bill passed by Congress. The NPRM is only the process they have to follow, but at the end of the day Congress is forcing this action, just like the 1,500 hr co-pilot bill and BasicMed. Neither of those were initiated by the FAA.
 
midwestpa24 said:
In this case, there is signed legislation requiring it. The FAA doesn't really get a say in it, same way we got BasicMed despite the FAA not wanting to allow it.
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The FAA did not oppose BasicMed. They had a rulemaking of their own in the works along similar lines, but it was stonewalled by DOT. That's why it had to be done by Congress.
 
They won't review or address your comments if they have nothing whatsoever to do with the rule being proposed. It's just a waste of effort to cram spurious stuff in the docket.

If you want to propose unrelated changes the proper way to do this is via a Petition For Rulemaking. I've done two. The first was mooted by a subsequent chief counsel decision. The other actually resulted in the rules being changed as I proposed it. I'm also listed by name in a rulemaking preamble (for an proposed AD) when they address the specific and relevant concern I made during the comment period.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2017-DCA16MA204-BMG-abstract.pdf
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Saving some people the time:

PROBABLE CAUSE
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the pilot’s pattern of poor decision-making that led to the initial launch, continued flight in fog and above clouds, and descent near or through clouds that decreased the pilot’s ability to see and avoid obstacles. Contributing to the accident were (1) the pilot’s impairing medical conditions and medications and (2) the Federal Aviation Administration’s policy to not require a medical certificate for commercial balloon pilots.
 
TCABM said:
Saving some people the time:

PROBABLE CAUSE
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the pilot’s pattern of poor decision-making that led to the initial launch, continued flight in fog and above clouds, and descent near or through clouds that decreased the pilot’s ability to see and avoid obstacles. Contributing to the accident were (1) the pilot’s impairing medical conditions and medications and (2) the Federal Aviation Administration’s policy to not require a medical certificate for commercial balloon pilots.
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I tried saving that time in Post #8, but apparently it didn’t work. ;)
 
There's been a number of high profile balloon accidents where paying passengers have lost their lives and it's later been shown that the pilot would have never qualified for a medical due to drug/alcohol issues. Regardless of whether drugs/alcohol were direct factors it's an indication of poor judgement, psychological issues, and impairment that might occur even when one is not under the influence (think hang overs, detox, withdraw etc).

I think the 3rd class medical should go away. If you want to kill yourself or people that know you and get in an airplane anyway, so be it. Those are somewhat well informed decisions.

When you want a stranger to take the paying public up to a height that would kill them in an uncontrolled descent it should be regulated to a different standard.

In my eyes the lesson here is regulate yourselves while you have the freedom or someone else will do it by force.
 
MauleSkinner said:
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2017-DCA16MA204-BMG-abstract.pdf
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Yeah the guy flew into IMC.


There were no illegal drugs or booze in his system.

Also it’s odd to see a NTSB in that format, seems like they were writing a persuasive essay.

He flew into IMC, lots of very straight lace pilots kill themselves that same way

In the robbies the number one and two cause of fatal crashes are IIMC and wires.

fatal-ga-accidents-l.jpg


Sounds like they wanted more regulations and this guy kinda sorta fit their bill the best they could find. At least that how it reads to me

If we are going to try to loosely predict the future based on little, I could make a better case banning people who took over X hours to solo from getting a commercial, obviously they didn’t have a good aptitude and shouldn’t be able to fly for hire, if we are going to reach under the umbrella of what MIGHT happen.

At least the ballon guy didn’t have a offensive tattoo.
 
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BladeSlap said:
There were no illegal drugs or booze in his system.
Click to expand...
But apparently plenty of legal ones that were considered causal and would preclude a medical…
Depression, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and the combined effects of multiple central nervous system-impairing drugs likely affected the pilot’s ability to make safe decisions.
Click to expand...
 
BladeSlap said:
Yeah the guy flew into IMC.

There were no illegal drugs or booze in his system.

Also it’s odd to see a NTSB in that format, seems like they were writing a persuasive essay.

He flew into IMC, lots of very straight lace pilots kill themselves that same way
Click to expand...

Flying into IMC in a balloon vs a power aircraft are NOT the same thing. Let's fill in the gaps that don't fit railing against the system....

The ultimate outcome of this flight is that 15 people died because the pilot climbed on top of IMC then descended IMC into powerlines. How many GA aircraft can hold 14 non-pilot passengers and a pilot? How many of those require type certifcates?

Medically the pilot had been diagnosed with depression and ADHD. Additionally he was diagnosed with high cholesterol, diabetes, chronic back pain, and fibromyalgia.

The pilot had medication in their system "known to cause impairment and are listed on the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) “Do Not Issue” and “Do Not Fly lists"

While not listed in the report, the pilot had been "arrested several times throughout the past two decades. 1999 & 2000 DUI. 1999 distribution, delivery, or manufacturing of a controlled substance. Driving under suspension. DUI in 2006.

His former girlfriend described him as "a recovering alcoholic".

"Depression, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and the combined effects of multiple central nervous system-impairing drugs likely affected the pilot’s ability to make safe decisions"

ADHD is a disorder characterized by impulsivity and reduced ability to integrate details into decision making.

We all know balloons aren't exactly the most maneuverable aircraft. Once you're in the air you've somewhat resigned your fate to weather so you better have a good understanding of meteorology.

This guy decided he had enough smarts to operate a balloon commercially and offer his services to the general public.

14 people from the general public with next to no understanding about aviation, dangers of IMC, the maneuverability or operation of a balloon, meteorological aviation concerns, or risks of personal injury paid this pilot to partake in the services they openly offered to the general public.

2 hours before flight he accessed information that indicated "clouds as low as 1100 ft AGL and a temperature/dew point spread of 1 degree C" along the route of flight. He then took off anyway during conditions of visible fog and low cloud layers. He continued to fly until he was on top of a "dense cloud layer that appeared to extend to the horizon". At some time after this he decided to blindly descend through IMC at which point he struck powerlines and everyone on board fell to their death.

Fortunately he didn't take out an airliner or GA aircraft with him.

What would have stopped this guy from being in the position to kill these people? Some oversight of commercial balloon operations. The second you start charging people for privilege of being responsible for whether they live or die you set yourself to a higher standard.

If this guy has to get a medical 15 people are alive today.
 
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ThatOtherGuy said:
Flying into IMC in a balloon vs a power aircraft are NOT the same thing. Let's fill in the gaps that don't fit railing against the system....

The ultimate outcome of this flight is that 15 people died because the pilot climbed on top of IMC then descended IMC into powerlines. How many GA aircraft can hold 14 non-pilot passengers and a pilot? How many of those require type certifcates?

Medically the pilot had been diagnosed with depression and ADHD. Additionally he was diagnosed with high cholesterol, diabetes, chronic back pain, and fibromyalgia.

The pilot had medication in their system "known to cause impairment and are listed on the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) “Do Not Issue” and “Do Not Fly lists"

While not listed in the report, the pilot had been "arrested several times throughout the past two decades. 1999 & 2000 DUI. 1999 distribution, delivery, or manufacturing of a controlled substance. Driving under suspension. DUI in 2006.

His former girlfriend described him as "a recovering alcoholic".

"Depression, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and the combined effects of multiple central nervous system-impairing drugs likely affected the pilot’s ability to make safe decisions"

ADHD is a disorder characterized by impulsivity and reduced ability to integrate details into decision making.

We all know balloons aren't exactly the most maneuverable aircraft. Once you're in the air you've somewhat resigned your fate to weather so you better have a good understanding of meteorology.

This guy decided he had enough smarts to operate a balloon commercially and offer his services to the general public.

14 people from the general public with next to no understanding about aviation, dangers of IMC, the maneuverability or operation of a balloon, meteorological aviation concerns, or risks of personal injury paid this pilot to partake in the services they openly offered to the general public.

2 hours before flight he accessed information that indicated "clouds as low as 1100 ft AGL and a temperature/dew point spread of 1 degree C" along the route of flight. He then took off anyway during conditions of visible fog and low cloud layers. He continued to fly until he was on top of a "dense cloud layer that appeared to extend to the horizon". At some time after this he decided to blindly descend through IMC at which point he struck powerlines and everyone on board fell to their death.

Fortunately he didn't take out an airliner or GA aircraft with him.

What would have stopped this guy from being in the position to kill these people? Some oversight of commercial balloon operations. The second you start charging people for privilege of being responsible for whether they live or die you set yourself to a higher standard.

If this guy has to get a medical 15 people are alive today.
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Perhaps I should clarify, my issue isn’t with the idea of having a medical in it if itself, but rather the knee jerk response to it.

I know of two medical related ballon accidents in the last 7 years, beyond that I’m uninformed on the frequency of balloon accidents attributed to medical impairment.

The lack of requirement for a medical on commercial balloon operations has been in place since 1973. I don’t agree that a two accidents warrants a policy reversal in what otherwise seems uneventful operations.

Yet, if the FAA’s medical system wasn’t so egregiously restrictive then I’d be all for it. (look how long it took for them to catch up on diabetes and what they do with mental health). In the meanwhile however I’m hostile to the idea of expanding FAA medical authority.

The system in my view is down right demeaning and insulting. I had a suicide attempt 4 years ago during a traumatic time, I am diagnosed on the autism spectrum, ADHD, OCD, past history of depression (age 13 to 20).

Yet, with all that I could go get my commercial drivers license medical for a 18 wheeler.


I’m licensed to carry a concealed weapon in over 40 states (thank you FL reciprocity), also including two very anti gun strict ones (RI and MA).

And I’m licensed to import firearms & defense articles including machine guns, suppressors, surplus warbird jets, and demilitarized (gun cut but otherwise functioning) tanks/armored vehicles.

And currently I have 3 machine guns on my FFL in the next room, and a 60mm mortar up in RI.

Even with all that context, if I went in to submit a medical tomorrow; I’d be denied after waiting 8 to 9 months for FAA to review my case. Likely being cited as too much of a risk of harming myself or others based on the aforementioned described history.

It’s a quite honestly disheartening to be stuck in such a manner.

It’s to the point I’ve had multiple pilot friends say “if you want to fly, you have to lie”.


At this point unfortunately my only legal avenue in the near future will be sport pilot. :/
 
ProjectInfinity1 said:
Perhaps I should clarify, my issue isn’t with the idea of having a medical in it if itself, but rather the knee jerk response to it.
Click to expand...
Did any your elected representatives vote for the bill that directed the FAA to do this?

Did you reach out to them before the vote to tell them your concerns?
 
ThatOtherGuy said:
Flying into IMC in a balloon vs a power aircraft are NOT the same thing. Let's fill in the gaps that don't fit railing against the system....

The ultimate outcome of this flight is that 15 people died because the pilot climbed on top of IMC then descended IMC into powerlines. How many GA aircraft can hold 14 non-pilot passengers and a pilot? How many of those require type certifcates?

Medically the pilot had been diagnosed with depression and ADHD. Additionally he was diagnosed with high cholesterol, diabetes, chronic back pain, and fibromyalgia.

The pilot had medication in their system "known to cause impairment and are listed on the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) “Do Not Issue” and “Do Not Fly lists"

While not listed in the report, the pilot had been "arrested several times throughout the past two decades. 1999 & 2000 DUI. 1999 distribution, delivery, or manufacturing of a controlled substance. Driving under suspension. DUI in 2006.

His former girlfriend described him as "a recovering alcoholic".

"Depression, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and the combined effects of multiple central nervous system-impairing drugs likely affected the pilot’s ability to make safe decisions"

ADHD is a disorder characterized by impulsivity and reduced ability to integrate details into decision making.

We all know balloons aren't exactly the most maneuverable aircraft. Once you're in the air you've somewhat resigned your fate to weather so you better have a good understanding of meteorology.

This guy decided he had enough smarts to operate a balloon commercially and offer his services to the general public.

14 people from the general public with next to no understanding about aviation, dangers of IMC, the maneuverability or operation of a balloon, meteorological aviation concerns, or risks of personal injury paid this pilot to partake in the services they openly offered to the general public.

2 hours before flight he accessed information that indicated "clouds as low as 1100 ft AGL and a temperature/dew point spread of 1 degree C" along the route of flight. He then took off anyway during conditions of visible fog and low cloud layers. He continued to fly until he was on top of a "dense cloud layer that appeared to extend to the horizon". At some time after this he decided to blindly descend through IMC at which point he struck powerlines and everyone on board fell to their death.

Fortunately he didn't take out an airliner or GA aircraft with him.

What would have stopped this guy from being in the position to kill these people? Some oversight of commercial balloon operations. The second you start charging people for privilege of being responsible for whether they live or die you set yourself to a higher standard.

If this guy has to get a medical 15 people are alive today.
Click to expand...


That’s a lot of conjecture

Oh and his ex….lol…his ex had less than nice things to say about him? Well that’s unbiased as it gets!!


If a airliner was flying at his altitude it was about to crash anyways

Did any of those witnesses say he appeared under the influence of something?

Could they find ONE past pax who thought he was under the influence of something, with the 40 plus page persuasive novel they wrote I bet they looked for one.

The guy made the same deadly mistake most of GA makes that results in a fatal, the FAA just happened to search out guy who seemed “bad” enough they thought they could use him for their illogical argument of more government restriction being needed, they had a outcome in mind and worked backwards from that.

Again, the FAA can’t even manage their phone lines, to think they are going to be your salvation is laughable, plus the sport and basic med pilots have proven the medical is mostly safety theatre.
 
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BladeSlap said:
That’s a lot of conjecture
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It's not conjecture, it's a compilation of facts from the accident report and multiple news agencies. It's actually not even fully inclusive of all the damning evidence.

I doubt you'll take the time or diligence to read for yourself before spouting off, but here you go:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/07/fatal-accident-occurred-july-30-2016-in.html


BladeSlap said:
the FAA just happened to search out guy who seemed “bad” enough they thought they could use him for their illogical argument of more government restriction being needed
Click to expand...

First the FAA doesn't write accident reports, that's the NTSB and they are distinct entities. Second they didn't have to search him out, he's wasn't hard to find as he was in a 90' tall balloon which was on fire and entangled in high voltage power lines. The late comers just had to look for the charred wreckage and envelope on the ground. Third, the FAA didn't give him all the DUIs, medical conditions, unapproved meds, illegal drugs, and then launch his balloon into IMC. Those were all HIS choices.

I've cited factual sources, not just my opinion. You read it and decide whether you'd let one of your loved ones get in the balloon with that guy. I don't think I've ever seen anyone so new to a complicated endeavor so hell bent on demonstrating what little understanding they have.
 
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ThatOtherGuy said:
It's not conjecture, it's a compilation of facts from the accident report and multiple news agencies. It's actually not even fully inclusive of all the damning evidence.

I doubt you'll take the time or diligence to read for yourself before spouting off, but here you go:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/07/fatal-accident-occurred-july-30-2016-in.html

I've cited factual sources, not just my opinion. You read it and decide whether you'd let one of your loved ones get in the balloon with that guy.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone so new to a complicated endeavor so hell bent on demonstrating what little understanding they have.
Click to expand...

My loved ones in that ballon, quit with the drama queen stuff.

I read the NTSB, lots of coulda shoulda and woulda, straight facts are he went IIMC. The amount of legal stuff in his system wasn’t enough for them to say XX amount of X would have caused X.

It just reads like they needed a case to lean their position on, and this one was the best they could find.

Honestly I am about as concerned with balloons not having a medical as eating raw cookie dough.

Plus the proof of the pudding is in the taste, and it tastes like the non medical LSA and basic guys are no less as safe, current medical needs to just die off and be replaced with the much more logical basic medical template. The DOT has about as much business in the medical world as my primary doctor has designing a freeway.
 
BladeSlap said:
That’s a lot of conjecture

Oh and his ex….lol…his ex had less than nice things to say about him? Well that’s unbiased as it gets!!


If a airliner was flying at his altitude it was about to crash anyways

Did any of those witnesses say he appeared under the influence of something?

Could they find ONE past pax who thought he was under the influence of something, with the 40 plus page persuasive novel they wrote I bet they looked for one.

The guy made the same deadly mistake most of GA makes that results in a fatal, the FAA just happened on a guy who seemed “bad” enough they thought they could use him for their illogical argument of more government restriction being needed, they had a outcome in kind and worked backwards from that.

Again, the FAA can’t even manage their phone lines, to think they are going to be your salvation is laughable, plus the sport and basic med pilots have proven the medical is mostly safety theatre.
Click to expand...

I’d like to see the federal air surgeon or Dickinson be falsely diagnosed with oh Bipolar disorder or some malady, and be forced to go through their own medical certification process. Their views would quickly change!
 
pilot445 said:
I’d like to see the federal air surgeon or Dickinson be falsely diagnosed with oh Bipolar disorder or some malady, and be forced to go through their own medical certification process. Their views would quickly change!
Click to expand...
Require first-class medicals in order to hold a job with the FAA!
 
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