rudder/nosewheel connections

[Matthew]

Almost all of my 100+ hrs are in a PA-28-161.

Yesterday, I did a check-out flight with my CFI in a 172 (FBO requires a check-out before I'm able to rent something different).

I've flown the 172 a couple of times before (with my CFI) and know there are differences between the Piper and Cessna steering.

Just what are they?

Seems that (on the Piper) there is a hard link between the pedals/nosegear/rudder. The Cessna feels like there is little, if any, connection between the nosewheel and anything else.

I think I've asked this question before, but I didn't really try to follow through.

 

[tonycondon]

yes piper has direct linkage, pushrod or something like that i think, between rudder and nosewheel. this is why you dont move rudder on preflight of piper, it is directly connected to nosewheel which will not turn easily without moving.

cessna has a bungee/spring type of connection between rudder pedal and nosewheel. also, in flight the cessna nose gear is locked straight, once compressed nosewheel steering becomes effective. steering with cessna takes more differential braking to be as positive as a piper

big difference during crosswind landing. in piper to prevent veering when nosewheel touches down, have rudder correction removed. in cessna, it doesnt matter, nosewheel will be straight when it touches down.

a fairly comprehensive list of piper/cessna differences for checkouts is on www.whittsflying.com

 

[ScottM]

big difference during crosswind landing. in piper to prevent veering when nosewheel touches down, have rudder correction removed. in cessna, it doesnt matter, nosewheel will be straight when it touches down.

You can keep the rudder correction just keep the nose up when you land. Which you should be doing anyway. Then straighten out the rudder once the main on are on the ground and let the nose gently come down.

 

[Matthew]

Tony,

I'll check out that link sometime tonight.

I'd heard there is a bungee-type connection in the Cessna.

I'm so used to steering the Piper and getting the immediate feedback. I was having problems taxiing the 172 on center because there felt like such a lag between when I made a correction with the pedals and when I felt the a/c actually change direction, I probably overcompensated with the brakes because of that. I also noticed it on takeoff - the 172 felt a little squirrely until it had enough forward speed that the rudder authority took over.

 

[ScottM]

Tony,

I'll check out that link sometime tonight.

I'd heard there is a bungee-type connection in the Cessna.

I'm so used to steering the Piper and getting the immediate feedback. I was having problems taxiing the 172 on center because there felt like such a lag between when I made a correction with the pedals and when I felt the a/c actually change direction, I probably overcompensated with the brakes because of that. I also noticed it on takeoff - the 172 felt a little squirrely until it had enough forward speed that the rudder authority took over.

Keep your feet on the brakes for the Cessna, I find you steer more that way then with moving the peddles. Just be careful to not ride the brakes, just tap them.

 

[Matthew]

Keep your feet on the brakes for the Cessna, I find you steer more that way then with moving the peddles. Just be careful to not ride the brakes, just tap them.

Yeah, I was being careful about that. Part of the rest of the learning experience was the difference between a high-time 160hp Piper and mid-time 180hp Cessna. On takeoff, you can put that 160hp throttle forward and trundle along without a worry, but that 180hp throttle had to be eased in or I would have a heckuva time keeping it aimed.

My first landing resulted in an inadvertent go-around. I was in the flare and sinking a little faster than I wanted so I added just a 'little' power to ease it in. That 'little' power resulted in a pretty good rate of climb! All part of the fun!

 

[tonycondon]

You can keep the rudder correction just keep the nose up when you land. Which you should be doing anyway. Then straighten out the rudder once the main on are on the ground and let the nose gently come down.

Thats what I was trying to say, just couldnt get the words to come out right.

Keep your feet on the brakes for the Cessna, I find you steer more that way then with moving the peddles. Just be careful to not ride the brakes, just tap them.

Id recommend this method as well.

 

[ScottM]

Yeah, I was being careful about that. Part of the rest of the learning experience was the difference between a high-time 160hp Piper and mid-time 180hp Cessna. On takeoff, you can put that 160hp throttle forward and trundle along without a worry, but that 180hp throttle had to be eased in or I would have a heckuva time keeping it aimed.

My first landing resulted in an inadvertent go-around. I was in the flare and sinking a little faster than I wanted so I added just a 'little' power to ease it in. That 'little' power resulted in a pretty good rate of climb! All part of the fun!

I always ease the throttle in. I like my engine.

 

[ScottM]

Thats what I was trying to say, just couldnt get the words to come out right.

I figured you were. I was just trying to drive the point home that far too many landings are fast, three pointers and that is just poor form unless you are trying for the three wire.

 

[CJones]

Quote:
Originally Posted by smigaldi
Keep your feet on the brakes for the Cessna, I find you steer more that way then with moving the peddles. Just be careful to not ride the brakes, just tap them.

Id recommend this method as well.

PERSONALLY, I don't like having my feet on the brakes during takeoff roll. In the RV, which has absolutely NO connection between the rudder and nosewheel, I can still keep it straight on t/o roll and you really have to watch it due to the 200hp hanging on the front and a short fuselage to help keep things straight. It does take more rudder activity than I was used to when flying the 172/152/PA-28's when I was doing PPL, but now that I've got used to having 'active feet' on the rudders in the RV, I use the same technique for the boring 'certified' planes.

Not sure exactly where I picked that mentality up from. Either the few hours that I have in the PA-11 which has heel brakes or my high performance checkout in the 182 where the instructor REALLY harped on using the rudder as another flight control.

It could also have something to do with the fact that now, when the brakes wear out, I get recruited to replace the pads.

Just my $.02.

-Chris

 

[tonycondon]

I thought we were talking about taxiing. brakes have no place really during a takeoff, unless it is being aborted.

 

[CJones]

I thought we were talking about taxiing. brakes have no place really during a takeoff, unless it is being aborted.

For some reason, I thought someone mentioned keeping their feet on the brakes during takeoff roll for better control. Maybe I ASS-U-MEd wrong. If not, you can disregard my previous post as being an insightful observation.

-Chris

 

[ScottM]

I thought we were talking about taxiing. brakes have no place really during a takeoff, unless it is being aborted.

For some reason, I thought someone mentioned keeping their feet on the brakes during takeoff roll for better control. Maybe I ASS-U-MEd wrong. If not, you can disregard my previous post as being an insightful observation.

-Chris

It wasn't me, only use 'em on taxiing. I agree, no brakes on take off. On take off the heels are on the floor and all brakes are off. With the Cessna you get rudder effectiveness pretty quick when the engine comes up to speed.

 

[CJones]

It wasn't me, only use 'em on taxiing. I agree, no brakes on take off. On take off the heels are on the floor and all brakes are off. With the Cessna you get rudder effectiveness pretty quick when the engine comes up to speed.

Darn.. And here I was thinking that I had added a valuable and different viewpoint on the subject. *sigh* Maybe I'll jump over to the Spin Zone where I'm sure to disagree with SOMEONE..

-Chris

 

[ScottM]

Darn.. And here I was thinking that I had added a valuable and different viewpoint on the subject. *sigh* Maybe I'll jump over to the Spin Zone where I'm sure to disagree with SOMEONE..

-Chris

It is ok we were also talking about landings a bit and take off were mentioned. But to be clear the using of the brake taps for Cessna steering should only be used for taxiing operations. If I led anyone to believe that you could or should do that for take off I apologize it was not my intention.

 

[NC Pilot]

yes piper has direct linkage, pushrod or something like that i think, between rudder and nosewheel. this is why you dont move rudder on preflight of piper, it is directly connected to nosewheel which will not turn easily without moving.

cessna has a bungee/spring type of connection between rudder pedal and nosewheel. also, in flight the cessna nose gear is locked straight, once compressed nosewheel steering becomes effective. steering with cessna takes more differential braking to be as positive as a piper

big difference during crosswind landing. in piper to prevent veering when nosewheel touches down, have rudder correction removed. in cessna, it doesnt matter, nosewheel will be straight when it touches down.

a fairly comprehensive list of piper/cessna differences for checkouts is on www.whittsflying.com

So, does that mean when you are flying along in your Piper and push on the rudder the nose gear pivots also? Does that provide any aerodynamic forces to any extent?

 

[tonycondon]

i think it does mark, may be the reason some of the faired nosegear for pipers have some vertical surfaces on them?

 

[Skip Miller]

i think it does mark, may be the reason some of the faired nosegear for pipers have some vertical surfaces on them?

I was told that was for shimmy dampening.

-Skip

 

[tonycondon]

could be, im clueless

 

[Steve]

per www.wikipedia.org n the Cessna nosewheel

The nosewheel is connected to the engine mount and has an oleo strut to dampen and absorb normal operating loads. The nosewheel is steerable through 8 degrees either side of neutral and can castor under differential braking up to 30 degrees. It is connected to the rudder pedals through a spring linkage.

 

[Chache]

Problem with using Cessna brakes while taxiing, is twofold.
In the first place it's the pad wear. You can taxi without brake use. It's a developed skill.
All a part ....of Airmanship. ( or is that groundsmanship??)
You won't learn it, if you don't practice it.

But worse than that, is that you get to train your feet to ride high on the pedals,
and believe it or not, you will unknowingly, drag brakes on T/O, and on T/D.
This has been noticed by many Instr's at the flight school I attend, and evidenced
by the regularity of pad, and tire replacement on trainers.

Ive been taught to taxi "correctly" I'm told, and
use (tap) the brakes, to make a tight turn, at very slow speeds,
or (tap) to help initiate a turn off the rwy /taxiway.

Of course there's always the LAHSO, where you stand on 'em..
with the yoke held tight against your "Solar Plexus"...till halted...!

 

[Pilawt]

So, does that mean when you are flying along in your Piper and push on the rudder the nose gear pivots also?

The Cherokee in this photo is in a slip. The left aileron is up, and the rudder -- and nosewheel -- are both deflected to the right.

In a Cessna the centering cam would straighten the nosewheel when the oleo strut is extended.

Does that provide any aerodynamic forces to any extent?

Probably a little, but not very significant.

-- Pilawt

 

[ScottM]

Problem with using Cessna brakes while taxiing, is twofold.
In the first place it's the pad wear. You can taxi without brake use. It's a developed skill.
All a part ....of Airmanship. ( or is that groundsmanship??)
You won't learn it, if you don't practice it.

But worse than that, is that you get to train your feet to ride high on the pedals,
and believe it or not, you will unknowingly, drag brakes on T/O, and on T/D.
This has been noticed by many Instr's at the flight school I attend, and evidenced
by the regularity of pad, and tire replacement on trainers.

Ive been taught to taxi "correctly" I'm told, and
use (tap) the brakes, to make a tight turn, at very slow speeds,
or (tap) to help initiate a turn off the rwy /taxiway.

Of course there's always the LAHSO, where you stand on 'em..
with the yoke held tight against your "Solar Plexus"...till halted...!

We all are in agreement and have been talking about using the tap method not riding the brakes.

 

[cwyckham]

I thought we were talking about taxiing. brakes have no place really during a takeoff, unless it is being aborted.

I have yet to take off in a Grumman AA1C without dragging right brake in the first few feet of the roll. Henning tells me that as long as I line up facing right a bit, I should be able to do it. I haven't tried yet. No problem in the DA20 with no brake (also has a free castoring nose-wheel).

I know you guys were talking about steerable nosewheels, but I thought I'd just point out to others that you probably only meant that brakes have no place in a take-off of the specific aircraft you're discussing.

Chris

 

[cwyckham]

Problem with using Cessna brakes while taxiing, is twofold.
In the first place it's the pad wear. You can taxi without brake use. It's a developed skill.
All a part ....of Airmanship. ( or is that groundsmanship??)
You won't learn it, if you don't practice it.

But worse than that, is that you get to train your feet to ride high on the pedals,
and believe it or not, you will unknowingly, drag brakes on T/O, and on T/D.
This has been noticed by many Instr's at the flight school I attend, and evidenced
by the regularity of pad, and tire replacement on trainers.

Ive been taught to taxi "correctly" I'm told, and
use (tap) the brakes, to make a tight turn, at very slow speeds,
or (tap) to help initiate a turn off the rwy /taxiway.

Of course there's always the LAHSO, where you stand on 'em..
with the yoke held tight against your "Solar Plexus"...till halted...!

My aeroclub teaches to idle at no lower than 1000 rpm before the runup to allow things to warm up and to prevent fouling. I find that my taxi speed is too high if I don't use the brakes a bit. My original instructor had me taxiing at much lower rpm, for shorter distances (I have to taxi a km now) and we often had to clear the plugs before take-off.

Can anybody offer me some wisdom about engine settings during initial taxi?

Chris

 

[NC Pilot]

My aeroclub teaches to idle at no lower than 1000 rpm before the runup to allow things to warm up and to prevent fouling. I find that my taxi speed is too high if I don't use the brakes a bit. My original instructor had me taxiing at much lower rpm, for shorter distances (I have to taxi a km now) and we often had to clear the plugs before take-off.

Can anybody offer me some wisdom about engine settings during initial taxi?

Chris

1000 RPM's is fine. Make sure you are leaning the engine from right after start. My rule of thumb is if the engine runs smooth at idle, but can't be throttled up without enrichening then I am lean enough.

 

[ScottM]

My aeroclub teaches to idle at no lower than 1000 rpm before the runup to allow things to warm up and to prevent fouling. I find that my taxi speed is too high if I don't use the brakes a bit. My original instructor had me taxiing at much lower rpm, for shorter distances (I have to taxi a km now) and we often had to clear the plugs before take-off.

Can anybody offer me some wisdom about engine settings during initial taxi?

Chris

To stay slow tap the brakes, use aero-braking, or just drop the rpms and lean the engine a bit.

 

[Matthew]

OK, I'm back.

Depending on the runway, I'll have to use brakes during taxi regardless of piper/cessna. My taxi to 36 is downhill and brakes are necessary every once in a while to keep from rolling too fast, regardless of the power settings. My DPE stressed he wanted to see a taxi speed of no faster than a walking pace. (At a walking pace, it's a long time to get to the end of that runway).

I was relying on the brakes during taxi (tapping one side or the other) for steering the Cessna because I was still getting used to the 'bungee assist' that doesn't exist on the Piper.

During takeoff, there were two things I had to get used to (I did not use brakes during takeoff) - the steering, and the acceleration down the runway. The Piper I'm used to has a lower power/higher time engine. Putting in the throttle causes such a slow acceleration that any steering adjustments (at least in MY experience) are easy, smooth corrections. Moving into the Cessna with the 180hp/mid-time engine I found that I had to add throttle at a much slower rate so I would have an easier time of maintaining directional control because I was still getting used to the feel of the steering.

Yep, it was a good day. The plane had been in the hangar (temps were about 15F). I did the pre-flight in the nice warm hangar, then the line guys towed it out onto the ramp and parked it on a spot that was covered in hard-packed snow and ice. As soon as I started the engine, even with the brakes locked, the plane started being dragged across the ice. Another note to self - just because the brakes are set doesn't mean they'll do you any good, always know what you are parked on! I only ended moving one or two feet, but it was enough of a lesson for me. 4 landings (one no-flap), an engine-out, steep-turns, slow flight, stalls,... lots of fun!

 

[ScottM]

then the line guys towed it out onto the ramp and parked it on a spot that was covered in hard-packed snow and ice. As soon as I started the engine, even with the brakes locked, the plane started being dragged across the ice. Another note to self - just because the brakes are set doesn't mean they'll do you any good, always know what you are parked on!

Last winter the taxiway I was on was very slippery. I had to do a moving run up and then onto the runway for take-off. There was not way to stay still with the throttle above about 1500 rpm.

 

[tonycondon]

ive found that you can either keep it at 1000 rpms, ride the brakes, and clean off the spark plugs at runup, or idle it back all the way and lean it out until it is just about ready to die, taxi slowly, and have clean plugs.

 

[NC Pilot]

ive found that you can either keep it at 1000 rpms, ride the brakes, and clean off the spark plugs at runup, or idle it back all the way and lean it out until it is just about ready to die, taxi slowly, and have clean plugs.

Lyconming recommends to not idle below 1000 rpm's on my engine. I lean it a lot and don't clean the plugs. I also don't ride my brakes.

It's a matter of technique.

 

[tonycondon]

well i was thinking more along the line of 172s 150s and warriors, trainers.

 

[cwyckham]

Ok, I just got back from 8 crosswind landings in a PA-28-140. The crosswind component was 9G13 knots.

I generally suck at crosswind landings, and I was really happy with my abillity to track the centerline, and my flares weren't too bad. The thing I could not get figured was centering the nosewheel before touching it down. I'm aware I have to do it, I was trying to do it (except the one time when I hadn't flared enough, and the nosewheel came down fairly quick after the mains hit, surprising me a bit), but every time the nose touched, I felt sort of skidding sensation and the nose would jog one way or the other a bit.

I'm thinking that maybe I wasn't actually doing as badly as it first seemed, but I wanted to check whith you folks. First of all, I at first thought that the skidding sort of feel/noise was me bringing the nosewheel down with it totally cocked to one side and it skidding sideways. However, since I didn't shoot off the side of the runway, I'm now wondering if maybe it was more the sound of the wheel spinning up and that maybe it was a little bit turned, but not that much. Also, the nose would jog to one side a bit, but not a huge amount, and was easily corrected.

So is this acceptable performance in my part, or am I totally screwing up and the nose should come down smoothly with no resulting yaw? Also, I've been trying to center the nosewheel by pushing the rudder pedals into a neutral position. Should I instead just release all pressure on them? Will the nosewheel center itself if I do that?

Thanks for your help,

Chris

 

[ScottM]

Ok, I just got back from 8 crosswind landings in a PA-28-140. The crosswind component was 9G13 knots.

I generally suck at crosswind landings, and I was really happy with my abillity to track the centerline, and my flares weren't too bad. The thing I could not get figured was centering the nosewheel before touching it down. I'm aware I have to do it, I was trying to do it (except the one time when I hadn't flared enough, and the nosewheel came down fairly quick after the mains hit, surprising me a bit), but every time the nose touched, I felt sort of skidding sensation and the nose would jog one way or the other a bit.

I'm thinking that maybe I wasn't actually doing as badly as it first seemed, but I wanted to check whith you folks. First of all, I at first thought that the skidding sort of feel/noise was me bringing the nosewheel down with it totally cocked to one side and it skidding sideways. However, since I didn't shoot off the side of the runway, I'm now wondering if maybe it was more the sound of the wheel spinning up and that maybe it was a little bit turned, but not that much. Also, the nose would jog to one side a bit, but not a huge amount, and was easily corrected.

So is this acceptable performance in my part, or am I totally screwing up and the nose should come down smoothly with no resulting yaw? Also, I've been trying to center the nosewheel by pushing the rudder pedals into a neutral position. Should I instead just release all pressure on them? Will the nosewheel center itself if I do that?

Thanks for your help,

Chris

It has become so automatic it is hard to really think it through. But what I do is make sure my mains are on the ground, while still nose high I put in full aileron wind correction and center the nose wheel with the peddles. Then as I slow down the nose comes down and yes there is sometimes chirp from the wheel spinning up. I don't think you should ever take your feet off of the peddles. If a gust where to come up you might need the rudder and/or nose wheel to correct for weather vanning.