Rudder Feel

[Jaybird180]

The Instrument Flying Handbook talks about improper foot placement and seat distance being an obstacle to good rudder use and likewise keeping the airplane coordinated. I'm still working on my footwork and can get about a ball or two's deflection on a slow roll before I feel the need for rudder (by kinesthetics). Of course, the airplane turns MUUUUCH better with proper rudder than without.

I'm looking for what they mean by "proper" foot placement and seat distance. Also if anyone has any additional tips to help with the feel, I'm all inner-ears.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I think the Skyhawk guys, of which there should be plenty, can shed more light on this but I can tell you this:

I am 6' and a fraction of an inch tall. Used to be 6'1" but I'm an old guy so my spinal fluids have evidently gone away.

I fly a Cessna 140 with 150 seats which actually offer a little extra legroom. These planes being small, with the seat all the way rearward, my knees are bent. Being a taildragger, having proper foot position on the rudders is ESSENTIAL! I put my heels on the floor so that I don't make any brake pressure on take off or landing except when I WANT to.

I flew with Wayne from this forum in his unbelievably gorgeous 180. When we got off the runway he offered me the controls and I was amazed how far forward I had to move the seat to even REACH the rudders in that plane.

From this experience, I would think that if you moved the seat forward to a point where one knee is slightly bent with that rudder pedal all the way to the floor while your heels are on the floor, you would be in a good position unless your arms are longer or shorter than normal placing the yoke in a strange position.

Hope this helps.

 

[wabower]

There's nothing in the book that says seat position must remain constant. Brakes aren't required for in-flight IR training, so moving the seat rearward increases the field of view significantly while allowing adequate rudder access. Prior to landing, move the seat forwared to the desired position for braking.

 

[dmccormack]

There's nothing in the book that says seat position must remain constant. Brakes aren't required for in-flight IR training, so moving the seat rearward increases the field of view significantly while allowing adequate rudder access. Prior to landing, move the seat forwared to the desired position for braking.

Good advice.

BUT -- I recommend you somehow mark where the seat position is so you can be in the same place each time.

I'm 6'1" but always slide the seat pretty far forward in any airplane before the approach. I like to feel the pedals. I suppose this comes from flying a taildragger.

 

[Jaybird180]

There's nothing in the book that says seat position must remain constant. Brakes aren't required for in-flight IR training, so moving the seat rearward increases the field of view significantly while allowing adequate rudder access. Prior to landing, move the seat forwared to the desired position for braking.

I'm averse to fooling with the seats once locked into position in a Cessna. I'd like to find a good one before takeoff and if I find a bad one, I just deal with it until I land.

 

[denverpilot]

One tip I've heard is that you should be able to apply forward pressure with BOTH feet at the same time, even if the rudder is at either the left or the right stop. If you have to push your hip forward on the side the rudder is on the floor, you're too far back.

The other way I've heard this said is, can you comfortably get the rudder from stop to stop left and right, while still applying enough pressure to hold the brakes on both sides?

Any closer than that, you're probably blocking the yoke from full rearward travel. Some folks will have problems getting all of these to line up with short legs.

 

[nosehair]

T I'm still working on my footwork and can get about a ball or two's deflection on a slow roll before I feel the need for rudder

?? What does that mean?? A "slow roll"? You're doing acrobatics?

But to the point of seat placement: from the very start, a student should position his/her seat in the same position each time, so that rudder and yoke input is the same relative to eye/hand coordination training.

After the flare/touchdown/rollout maneuver has become "routine", and somewhat on automatic, then you will be able to land without a "familiar" control feel. Until then, seat placement is germane to consistent control "feel", and authority.

 

[ajstoner21]

I always had the seat pretty far forward for an approach too. I've been told I had good rudder use, but, my experience is all tricycle landing gear.

I'm sure I might learn a ton more when I get into tail draggers and gliders which I'm really anxious to do.

 

[Jaybird180]

?? What does that mean?? A "slow roll"? You're doing acrobatics?
.

LoL slow roll for me probably is a normal roll-in for you. I used to snap to 30degrees to turn. I now eeeease the roll now.

 

[wabower]

But you're OK with constantly moving the flight controls and throttle throughout the flight?

I'm averse to fooling with the seats once locked into position in a Cessna. I'd like to find a good one before takeoff and if I find a bad one, I just deal with it until I land.

 

[nosehair]

I'm still working on my footwork and can get about a ball or two's deflection on a slow roll before I feel the need for rudder (by kinesthetics).

Oh,..OK, you mean when you slowly roll over into a normal bank, without rudder, the ball slides down a width or two before you feel the need for rudder. I think that 's what you mean.

Yeah, thank Cessna & Piper & Beech for designing wings that can turn the airplane without much rudder. Good operational airplanes, but very poor trainers. As a matter of fact, they provide negative training. They make you think you can get by with little or no rudder when turning the airplane. 'Cause you can, at cruising speeds. The problem only begins to appear at near stall (landing) speeds.

Yeah, it doesn't really matter, safety wise, if you go slippin' (driving with the yoke) around in cruising flight, but you can't do it during landing. Or you shouldn't- problem is, you can get away with that 99% of the time, so...

...but, to get to your question, rudder feel, slow it down a bit, say about 70kts in a 152/172 with 10* flaps (better forward vis) trimmed and stable, then squeeze gently on the rudder pedals with the balls of your feet, and your heels resting on the floor. You should be as comfortable as possible in
being able to rotate your feet at the ankle while squeezing pressure on the bottom of the rudder bar.

Watch the ball exclusively. Well, the ball and the attitude indicator for bank info, but primarily, watch the ball to keep from applying too much pressure so that the ball does not go out side of the marker edges.

You are banking with rudder only. Watch the AI to apply pressure to a certain bank angle, 10 & 20 at first, to avoid altitude problems. You are developing rudder feel by controlling bank angle with rudder, but doing it by finessing the rudder so that you don't slam the ball out.

..and you are also learning how to practically fly the airplane with rudder only, so that you can use both hands to unfold that map.

..and be able to make good coordinated rudder and aileron turns when you want to - by feel.

 

[TMetzinger]

All of the above, and practice using the trim wheel for elevator. You'll find that you can fly quite well with the rudder and trim alone, which is good both for feel and in the event you ever have a control system problem.

Do NOT try doing this all the way to touchdown without a CFI with functioning controls in the right seat. You should be able to get to the point wher you only need the elevator for the initial rotation (and not even then if you have enough runway) and the final flare. It's a good exercise that reinforces the concept that your airplane has multiple flying surfaces and what each one does.

 

[Jaybird180]

But you're OK with constantly moving the flight controls and throttle throughout the flight?

LOL...yes, what R you trying to say Wayne (biting bait).

 

[Jaybird180]

All of the above, and practice using the trim wheel for elevator. You'll find that you can fly quite well with the rudder and trim alone, which is good both for feel and in the event you ever have a control system problem.

Do NOT try doing this all the way to touchdown without a CFI with functioning controls in the right seat. You should be able to get to the point wher you only need the elevator for the initial rotation (and not even then if you have enough runway) and the final flare. It's a good exercise that reinforces the concept that your airplane has multiple flying surfaces and what each one does.

I found that full up trim will descend to land at 65kias full flaps

 

[Jaybird180]

Oh,..OK, you mean when you slowly roll over into a normal bank, without rudder, the ball slides down a width or two before you feel the need for rudder. I think that 's what you mean.

Yeah, thank Cessna & Piper & Beech for designing wings that can turn the airplane without much rudder. Good operational airplanes, but very poor trainers. As a matter of fact, they provide negative training. They make you think you can get by with little or no rudder when turning the airplane. 'Cause you can, at cruising speeds. The problem only begins to appear at near stall (landing) speeds.

Yeah, it doesn't really matter, safety wise, if you go slippin' (driving with the yoke) around in cruising flight, but you can't do it during landing. Or you shouldn't- problem is, you can get away with that 99% of the time, so...

...but, to get to your question, rudder feel, slow it down a bit, say about 70kts in a 152/172 with 10* flaps (better forward vis) trimmed and stable, then squeeze gently on the rudder pedals with the balls of your feet, and your heels resting on the floor. You should be as comfortable as possible in
being able to rotate your feet at the ankle while squeezing pressure on the bottom of the rudder bar.

Watch the ball exclusively. Well, the ball and the attitude indicator for bank info, but primarily, watch the ball to keep from applying too much pressure so that the ball does not go out side of the marker edges.

You are banking with rudder only. Watch the AI to apply pressure to a certain bank angle, 10 & 20 at first, to avoid altitude problems. You are developing rudder feel by controlling bank angle with rudder, but doing it by finessing the rudder so that you don't slam the ball out.

..and you are also learning how to practically fly the airplane with rudder only, so that you can use both hands to unfold that map.

..and be able to make good coordinated rudder and aileron turns when you want to - by feel.

Perhaps I need to SEE the proper foot placement or happen on it by mistake. I'll pay more attention next flight.

 

[denverpilot]

Related: I once tried flying in cowboy boots. Never again.

 

[Jaybird180]

I try to only fly in sneakers for feel and consistency with learning.

 

[wabower]

Just wondered why anybody who is adept at handling the hard stuff would be hesitant about handling the easy stuff. I'm living proof that 50+ years of adjusting Cessna seats for best comfort and convenience is an achievable feat, even for the less-gifted.

LOL...yes, what R you trying to say Wayne (biting bait).

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Related: I once tried flying in cowboy boots. Never again.

Flew all the way from the motor city to Fairbanks and back in cowboy boots. But that was in a Cessna 120 - hard to find an airplane that is easier to fly than that.

Mr. Jaybird180 should drop by and ride with me for a while. If my current ride won't edgumacate his feet, nothing will.

 

[wabower]

The long-of-foot should wear shoes with flexible soles that bend easily at the ball of the foot, in order to slide their heels down so that toes are on rudders only rather than brakes. I've found that deck shoes are the best option for my 14's.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Related: I once tried flying in cowboy boots. Never again.

Depends on the plane. Alot of Beech 18 drivers I've talked to actually prefer cowboy boots.

But, I would agree that in most light airplanes, the bigger heel boots are problematic. I don't mind roper style boots though.

 

[jesse]

I used to sit way too far forward - the more I instructed - the more I moved back. Much better.

 

[dmccormack]

Flat-soled sneakers in the Chief (heel brakes).

Whatever I'm wearing in just about anything else. I haven't worn Mickey Mouse Boots flying, yet. (B-52 crews were issued them).

 

[Jaybird180]

Flat-soled sneakers in the Chief (heel brakes).

Whatever I'm wearing in just about anything else. I haven't worn Mickey Mouse Boots flying, yet. (B-52 crews were issued them).

Can you call a B-52 flying??? With that much power you can make a politician fly.

 

[TMetzinger]

In the diamonds I have wear Vans or other narrow shoes. My big timberland work shoes are too wide to get into the gap in that movable rudder-pedal assembly.

 

[ChrisK]

Speaking of seat position, during my first 18 hours of dual instruction my instructor and I were trying to figure out why I rolled during flare. It took us that long to figure out I was sitting too close to the yoke and was unable to pull my left hand straight back

Seat position matters!

 

[nddons]

In the diamonds I have wear Vans or other narrow shoes. My big timberland work shoes are too wide to get into the gap in that movable rudder-pedal assembly.

I had that same problem in a DA40 checkout. On the go on a touch and go, I tried to hit right rudder and my foot got caught up on part of the sliding mechanism instead of the pedal. A little scary.