Rudder Advice for a noobie.

[MAKG1]

Some people think it's a bad aircraft to learn in because it's so easy.

I tend to disagree. Get into the air by any prudent means and then transition.

There is a school of thought that you do your primary training in a persnickety aircraft (like a tailwheel) and then you're a "better pilot." Which is true, but it takes you longer to get there, and you can accomplish most of the same things by transitioning later -- when you have your certificate.

Every aircraft is going to seem cramped, especially a trainer. But even some high performance aircraft are like that (try squeezing into a Mooney). A 152 is a bit of a sardine can, but your wallet is going to be an issue in anything.

A thick wallet is a good thing for an aspiring pilot.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

There is a school of thought that you do your primary training in a persnickety aircraft (like a tailwheel) and then you're a "better pilot." Which is true,

I have to disagree. You do learn to use your feet and touch down straight, but once you are in the air, the location of the third wheel is pretty much irrelevant. You don't have to be an above average pilot to fly a tailwheel - I've been getting away with it for years.

but it takes you longer to get there,

Disagree again.

By the time you learn to judge the flare / touchdown (the hard part) you feet will be well versed in keeping it straight. I don't see any significant extra time being needed except for covering wheel landings in addition to three points.

and you can accomplish most of the same things by transitioning later -- when you have your certificate.

Guess what I'm going to say...

Transitioning later appears to be difficult because of the unlearning of bad habits necessary. My understanding is that it can take 5 - 10 hours for a tailwheel transition. Learning to keep the airplane straight happens on the first lesson if you start out with a tailwheel and you don't know any better.

But to get back to the OP - learn in whatever you want to learn in and don't worry about it. In the end, it doesn't really matter. But that won't stop the endless bickering about what is best.

 

[RoscoeT]

There is a school of thought that you do your primary training in a persnickety aircraft (like a tailwheel) and then you're a "better pilot." Which is true, but it takes you longer to get there, and you can accomplish most of the same things by transitioning later -- when you have your certificate.

Many licensed pilots take longer to transition into tailwheel airplanes (from trikes) than it takes others to solo from scratch in a tailwheel airplane. And I've heard from operators who have trikes and TD's running side-by-side saying there's no difference in time required to solo or get your license. You don't know the difference when you have zero hours. Learning from scratch is much easier than re-learning later.

Regarding this whole "wait until you have your license" thing, flying is not a race to the checkride. Not sure what purpose that serves. The earlier in your flying career that you can learn something, the better off you will be.

 

[MAKG1]

One can become an expert pilot without ever touching a tailwheel aircraft.

The topic is whether a Warrior is a "bad" aircraft for primary training because it's too easy. Stick to the topic. He's having trouble taxiing a Cessna, and you're going to have a lot of trouble saying it's not going to save time to certificate to solve that problem by training on an aircraft that's easier to steer.

The point of getting the license to learn earlier is that it removes time pressure like spouses asking "when are you going to finish," and allows for transitions to take place more gradually. Total time is total time when you're done with all the transitions, but there is a big difference between the certificate and transitions -- the pilot can take passengers and trips in the Warrior. Get THAT milestone out of the way as fast as prudent (but no faster), and then you can enjoy the hobby. Training itself can be fun as long as you aren't stuck, but it's a whole 'nother world when you can take passengers on a sightseeing trip over Lake Tahoe or somesuch.

 

[RoscoeT]

One can become an expert pilot without ever touching a tailwheel aircraft.

Nobody said otherwise.

The topic is whether a Warrior is a "bad" aircraft for primary training because it's too easy. Stick to the topic.

LOL...you brought up the off-topic (and incorrect) tailwheel comments.

The point of getting the license to learn earlier is that it removes time pressure like spouses asking "when are you going to finish," and allows for transitions to take place more gradually.

That's too personal an issue for you to make judgments for others on.

 

[Jaybird180]

Not to be snarky, but you're not qualified to judge what is good training, that's what PoA is for.

Seriously, one of my groundschool classmates didn't finish because he thought that his overly-tough CFI was good for him. I cautioned him to change instructors and he blew me off, then blew away in training.

Of my classmates, I'm the only one who didn't washout and is a pilot today. I don't know the status of the 1 student who moved overseas.

Wow lots of posts over night! Thanks everyone!

Some funny posts too, the dutch roll recipe made me chuckle.



It did help calm my nerves though as you said. I let out a little squeal of glee when he showed me the first stall. Though that reversed when I almost put us into a spin

I think you're right that its a bit early, but I dont have a reference for these things. What do most people work on early on? The slow flight I think was good training and after I borked the stall I was more diligent with my feet during the slow flight training.

As for the taxing, I will slow it down with throttle instead of the breaks. He's letting me make some errors which I like but I'm still a bit to shy with him to ask why I'm going to fast and how to correct it as to not look stupid which is even worse because it just makes me look stupider. Give that another hour or two with him and I promise he will miss me being shy. I'm already coming out of my shell. Thank god he's younger and can deal with my sense of humor... though he hasnt even seen the start of it yet.




We were in a 152. We are moving to a piper warrior for our next outing and i'll be sticking to that. The 152 is just to cramped for us. While I enjoy my instructors sense of humor with putting his arm around me it was already clear we're a bit to big for the plane. I wanted to do the 172 but its always booked for the times we go out.



Roger!

 

[bordman]

Not to be snarky, but you're not qualified to judge what is good training, that's what PoA is for.

Seriously, one of my groundschool classmates didn't finish because he thought that his overly-tough CFI was good for him. I cautioned him to change instructors and he blew me off, then blew away in training.

Of my classmates, I'm the only one who didn't washout and is a pilot today. I don't know the status of the 1 student who moved overseas.

I wouldn't say mine is tough. He is a nice nerdy guy like myself and I enjoy his company and knowledge.

I do have another question though i'll toss in here. I read a lot of posts about new pilots doing landings from the get go. I haven't yet, and I understand my CFI's point of view from understanding the basics from the get go. Is this normal? It's also been very windy so I think that might have something to do with it as well. He had to pull off a pretty gnarly crosswind landing last time.

 

[Jaybird180]

Following along on the controls is fine. But IMHO you should be working on (slow) ground taxiing and 4 Fundamentals ONLY.

A qualified CFI will be along to chime in shortly

 

[Shepherd]

The rudder is hard,
The ground is harder.
Make peace with the first,
Before you buy a piece of the other.

Something I remember from a long, long time ago.

 

[MAKG1]

I've heard those stories as well. A good landing is quite close to a stall, so if you're having trouble in slow flight and stalls, you're not ready to land unassisted.

It's very tempting to try to get ahead of yourself here. 4 fundamentals first, then slow flight and ground reference maneuvers. Then landings. You need the ground reference maneuvers to learn how to sense the wind.

"Following" the instructor is commonly done, but I'm not convinced of its effectiveness. It doesn't seem to do any damage, but I don't think it helps much either.

 

[ebykowsky]

My landings started off as following along on the controls and got to the point where I would land and think my CFI had been adjusting, but he said he hadn't been touching a thing... finally, his hands migrated away from the controls and I was doing it all on my own. It's a gradual process. You'll want to jump the gun, but it seems you're progressing normally. I didn't start on stalls and slow flight till lesson 4 or 5, and still soloed in 12 hrs. For now, just get to know the airplane and its capabilities-the first time we did steep turns, it freaked me out, but once you know exactly what the plane should/can and shouldn't do, flying will become much easier and more second nature.

I'm not a CFI or experienced pilot by any means, but I just got "done" with this whole training thing so hopefully that'll help some.
By the way did you ever go to the sc breakfast club? I think I'm gonna check it out sometime this summer.

 

[Jaybird180]

I've heard those stories as well. A good landing is quite close to a stall, so if you're having trouble in slow flight and stalls, you're not ready to land unassisted.

It's very tempting to try to get ahead of yourself here. 4 fundamentals first, then slow flight and ground reference maneuvers. Then landings. You need the ground reference maneuvers to learn how to sense the wind.

"Following" the instructor is commonly done, but I'm not convinced of its effectiveness. It doesn't seem to do any damage, but I don't think it helps much either.

My primary CFI refused to teach me ground reference manuevers as a waste of time. He soloed me in the "normal" time. My finish-up CFI did them with me so I would know what they are for my checkride (after telling him that I'd never done them), but ... it wasn't hard at all.

 

[MAKG1]

My primary CFI refused to teach me ground reference manuevers as a waste of time. He soloed me in the "normal" time. My finish-up CFI did them with me so I would know what they are for my checkride (after telling him that I'd never done them), but ... it wasn't hard at all.

Once you can fly a good pattern, ground reference maneuvers are truly easy. The point is to ease into the pattern.

You do need some way to learn to sense the wind, but it's not hard to come up with alternatives.

You're not likely to need them in the checkride either, but it IS allowed so you have to be ready for it. There just aren't very many scenarios that involve flying circles around an intersection, and a good site for GRMs might be far away.

 

[Jaybird180]

Once you can fly a good pattern, ground reference maneuvers are truly easy. The point is to ease into the pattern.

You do need some way to learn to sense the wind, but it's not hard to come up with alternatives.

You're not likely to need them in the checkride either, but it IS allowed so you have to be ready for it. There just aren't very many scenarios that involve flying circles around an intersection, and a good site for GRMs might be far away.

The DPE required me to do turns around a point, but I'm not sure about S-Turns across a road.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

I had the problem of taxiing at 1300 rpm and holding down on the breaks until pretty recently. Glad you're catching this early! I heard a story of a guy at PIT who did this on a long taxi and his wheel caught on fire from the friction

Back early in my training, I was in my DA-20 following a guy in a DA-40 on a 2.5nm taxi (close runway was closed and unfavorable winds.) As he's pulling up to the hold-short line, the wheel pant starts smoking and catches on fire. Ended up melting half the plane and rupturing the fuel tank. His response was that he always taxied at 1800rpm to warm up the engine. Just another reason to taxi at a low power setting and not use the breaks.

 

[MAKG1]

And if you MUST use the brakes, use them intermittently to allow them to cool.

As a mountain resident, I cringe every time I see an obvious flatlander driver ride the brakes all the way down the mountain.

 

[GCA319]

My primary CFI refused to teach me ground reference manuevers as a waste of time. He soloed me in the "normal" time. My finish-up CFI did them with me so I would know what they are for my checkride (after telling him that I'd never done them), but ... it wasn't hard at all.

Then he wasn't following the regs. They have to be covered pre-solo.

 

[denverpilot]

"Dutch roll" is a mis-applied term that I hate. Everybody has a different idea of what it is - swept wing phenomenon, centered ball coordination exercise vs. nose-on-point uncoordinated exercise...who cares. Just roll the airplane back and forth and learn to the use the rudder properly to keep the ball centered...preferably without having to look at it.

I find the nose-on-point exercise trains your butt what should "feel wrong" and the coordinated maneuver trains your butt in what should "feel right".

Let the jokes begin...

 

[LDJones]

I wouldn't say mine is tough. He is a nice nerdy guy like myself and I enjoy his company and knowledge.

I do have another question though i'll toss in here. I read a lot of posts about new pilots doing landings from the get go. I haven't yet, and I understand my CFI's point of view from understanding the basics from the get go. Is this normal? It's also been very windy so I think that might have something to do with it as well. He had to pull off a pretty gnarly crosswind landing last time.

I flew with a brand new student today. He had sole control for 90% of the 1.3 hour flight. He was enthralled with the freedom of directing our flight path up, down left and right and i enjoyed watching him have fun! He learned basic control and what the rudder pedals are for. He followed along on a slow flight demonstration and a basic introduction to the concept of stalls and a demonstration that they were nothing to be concerned about as the plane is designed to fly and it much prefers to fly than to stall.

He flew the pattern at my direction and followed me through on the controls on both landings, with me explaining why inputs were needed when and why.

I think students should control most of the flight, with only as much of my assistance as required to keep us both safe. It's the only way they'll learn.

 

[LDJones]

Then he wasn't following the regs. They have to be covered pre-solo.

Rectangles should be introduced on the first or second flight as part of understanding how to fly a traffic pattern.

 

[jnmeade]

My primary CFI refused to teach me ground reference manuevers as a waste of time. .

Ground reference maneuvers are the basis for pattern work. Time spent on them is time one doesn't have to spend in the pattern.

Learning ground reference maneuvers at various locations teaches the pilot the skills to judge where and how strong the wind is and how to compensate for it by the crab and bank angle and length of legs.

That has two good effects.
1. The pilot learns to judge the pattern not by the tree, the house, the intersection, the river but rather by the standoff distance, the crab correction needed, the 45° (or other appropriate) angle so the pattern skills can be transferred from airport to airport. (Beginning pilots too often imprint a local airport pattern based on landmarks and don't feel comfortable at a strange airport.)
2. The pilot learns early what a tail wind on base does to the time of the base leg and the place to start and how to fly the turn to final. Better to start identifying the characteristics of this and how to naturally incorporate it into the recognition and learning process in the ground reference maneuvers than think about them for the first time in the pattern.

There are some CFI's who treat the ground reference maneuvers as "school figures" and I think that gives the student the idea they are artificial skills rather than something that can be put to real use on every flight.

 

[jnmeade]

And if you MUST use the brakes, use them intermittently to allow them to cool.

As a mountain resident, I cringe every time I see an obvious flatlander driver ride the brakes all the way down the mountain.

Interesting. When I ran a semi from the midwest to the coast, we were taught to not "fan" the brakes as all that did was introduce oxygen to them and start fires easier.

 

[MAKG1]

Interesting. When I ran a semi from the midwest to the coast, we were taught to not "fan" the brakes as all that did was introduce oxygen to them and start fires easier.

You were also trained to use the jake brakes, right?

Continuous brake use boils the fluid and causes fade. Continuous hard braking lights its own fires.

Your brakes already are exposed to oxygen. And you won't light your brake fluid on fire unless it's leaking. And it WILL leak onto red hot brakes in the presence of oxygen if your ride them.

I guess that's why we see so many tractor-trailer accidents. Brake fade accidents tend to involve excessive speed and loss of control. Real bad on a twisty forested mountain road.

 

[Jaybird180]

I flew with a brand new student today. He had sole control for 90% of the 1.3 hour flight. He was enthralled with the freedom of directing our flight path up, down left and right and i enjoyed watching him have fun! He learned basic control and what the rudder pedals are for. He followed along on a slow flight demonstration and a basic introduction to the concept of stalls and a demonstration that they were nothing to be concerned about as the plane is designed to fly and it much prefers to fly than to stall.

He flew the pattern at my direction and followed me through on the controls on both landings, with me explaining why inputs were needed when and why.

I think students should control most of the flight, with only as much of my assistance as required to keep us both safe. It's the only way they'll learn.

Even today, I find it valuable to shut up and just watch sometimes.

 

[Botskys]

I am a truck driver and use my left foot to break when driving so when it came to taxing it was kinda easy. On a flight with a new instructor we were taxing to runway and I wasn't slowing down I stopped at the hold short line and he looked at me and said "I thought you were going to blow that and head onto the runway." HA the life of a city truck driver.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Might be a little soon, but ask your instructor to explain and demonstrate the "falling leaf" exercise. He'll show you how to pick up each wing in a stalled condition using just the rudder. My instructor had me keep my feet on the rudders while he showed me how it worked.

Great way to learn rudder awareness and effectiveness, and the importance of using your feet!

 

[denverpilot]

Snagged these from some guy's website detailing I-70 West of Denver.

The sign on the right says "Trucks stay in low gear, next 6 miles." It's on the Eastbound side of the road at the exit from the Eisenhower Tunnel. The highway has numerous of them in problem spots all the way down from the Continental Divide into West Denver Metro.

I was looking for the giant ones at Genessee that warn "Truckers you are not down yet! 6% Grade next XXX miles." With yellow flashing lights and they're enormous.

The thing on the left is what you end up using if the brakes fail... (Runaway truck ramp East of Genessee. That is the last one Eastbound. There's some interesting ones on the Westbound side of the highway too.

And I've lost count of how many trucks I've personally seen sitting buried up to their axles in the loose gravel in all of them over the years.

 

[Silvaire]

"Dutch roll" is a mis-applied term that I hate. Everybody has a different idea of what it is - swept wing phenomenon, centered ball coordination exercise vs. nose-on-point uncoordinated exercise...who cares. Just roll the airplane back and forth and learn to the use the rudder properly to keep the ball centered...preferably without having to look at it.

Well call it whatever you want, there's no reason to "hate" the term. The maneuver I'm referring to involves maintaining straight and level flight while slowly applying opposite aileron and rudder all the way to the stops then reversing to the opposite extreme. Do this back and forth in a smooth transition. You will also have to use the elevator to pull the nose up in order to maintain altitude as you compensate for the drag induced by the slip. The nose of the aircraft will carve a smiley face.

The ball does not stay centered, those would be S-turns.

 

[bobmrg]

And if you MUST use the brakes, use them intermittently to allow them to cool.

As a mountain resident, I cringe every time I see an obvious flatlander driver ride the brakes all the way down the mountain.

I learned to drive in relatively flat northern Indiana...but I learned on a stick shift and learned early on about shifting down. When I am driving the Siskiyou mountains on a trip to/from the Bay area I watch my (or my wife's) brake use...go for the brakes more than once and it is downshift time.

And it is BRAKES, not breaks. I have never seen a car or plane that had breaks.

Bob Gardner

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I have to disagree. You do learn to use your feet and touch down straight, but once you are in the air, the location of the third wheel is pretty much irrelevant. You don't have to be an above average pilot to fly a tailwheel - I've been getting away with it for years.


Disagree again.

By the time you learn to judge the flare / touchdown (the hard part) you feet will be well versed in keeping it straight. I don't see any significant extra time being needed except for covering wheel landings in addition to three points.



Guess what I'm going to say...

Transitioning later appears to be difficult because of the unlearning of bad habits necessary. My understanding is that it can take 5 - 10 hours for a tailwheel transition. Learning to keep the airplane straight happens on the first lesson if you start out with a tailwheel and you don't know any better.

But to get back to the OP - learn in whatever you want to learn in and don't worry about it. In the end, it doesn't really matter. But that won't stop the endless bickering about what is best.

 

[MAKG1]

I learned to drive in relatively flat northern Indiana...but I learned on a stick shift and learned early on about shifting down. When I am driving the Siskiyou mountains on a trip to/from the Bay area I watch my (or my wife's) brake use...go for the brakes more than once and it is downshift time.

And it is BRAKES, not breaks. I have never seen a car or plane that had breaks.

Bob Gardner

Downshifting is one of the tools, but it isn't always enough. Among other variables, it suffers from density altitude. The main thing is to avoid continuous braking.

I see lots of breaks on old airplanes and cars. They just don't stop the vehicle. The most recent break on the VW is the right rear door handle. It cracked. It also likes to melt plastic cooling system parts.

 

[bobmrg]

Downshifting is one of the tools, but it isn't always enough. Among other variables, it suffers from density altitude. The main thing is to avoid continuous braking.

I see lots of breaks on old airplanes and cars. They just don't stop the vehicle. The most recent break on the VW is the right rear door handle. It cracked. It also likes to melt plastic cooling system parts.

Give me a brake!

 

[bordman]

So flight hour #3 today. Taxing improved 100% thanks to the advice here and proper foot placement. I did all the taxing for the most part. I was nervous the first 30 seconds of the taxi and he helped me turn right past a parked plane while demonstrating how I can be forceful with the rudder to turn sharper because I did mention something prior. I taxied the rest of the way for the most part without any incidents, zig zagging or anything else. Even hit the runway centerline on the first go. WOOT! Not to mention he didnt have to fix the right rudder on take off today! Did stalls and DIDNT almost spin out, I pretty much nailed it both times. Slow flight was good too. Maintained altitude, heading, and speed well. The pitch for speed and throttle for altitude made sense today. He had me pay close attention to what he was doing during landing today as well. Maybe i'm finally getting closer to my first attempt! All in all I felt much more comfortable in the plane today then I have before. Not sure if it was the transition to the warrior but I really enjoy flying this plane vs. the 152.

My landings started off as following along on the controls and got to the point where I would land and think my CFI had been adjusting, but he said he hadn't been touching a thing... finally, his hands migrated away from the controls and I was doing it all on my own. It's a gradual process. You'll want to jump the gun, but it seems you're progressing normally. I didn't start on stalls and slow flight till lesson 4 or 5, and still soloed in 12 hrs. For now, just get to know the airplane and its capabilities-the first time we did steep turns, it freaked me out, but once you know exactly what the plane should/can and shouldn't do, flying will become much easier and more second nature.

Yeah I am not in a huge rush to get to the landings. I was just unsure if most people start out with them. I am getting the slow flight and such down which I know is important. We did steep turns today and I loved it! He did the first one and i had one hell of a smile on my face. I think I did 4 on my own today. Good practice and taught me quite a bit. I actually could hear the engine of the plane when I was loosing altitude vs when I was gaining it which was interesting. Though I still was +- 300 ft before and after each one. The last was my best though and can't wait to practice more of these.

I'm not a CFI or experienced pilot by any means, but I just got "done" with this whole training thing so hopefully that'll help some.
By the way did you ever go to the sc breakfast club? I think I'm gonna check it out sometime this summer.

Of course it helps! Any good advice can't hurt, right! I haven't gone to the breakfast club yet. I assume it is http://www.flyscbc.com/ right? Looks like i missed the greenwood outting this year but they will be @ GMU on the 17th of August so i'll be there without a doubt, and may stop by there newberry outting on may 19th as well.

 

[ebykowsky]

Of course it helps! Any good advice can't hurt, right! I haven't gone to the breakfast club yet. I assume it is http://www.flyscbc.com/ right? Looks like i missed the greenwood outting this year but they will be @ GMU on the 17th of August so i'll be there without a doubt, and may stop by there newberry outting on may 19th as well.

That's the one! KGMU looks like it's Aug. 4, not the 17th. I may try flying to the Bishopville or Cheraw one. Maybe GMU, but that's a bit of an expensive flight... Then again, if I bring a parent along, I don't have to pay a thing

 

[bordman]

That's the one! KGMU looks like it's Aug. 4, not the 17th. I may try flying to the Bishopville or Cheraw one. Maybe GMU, but that's a bit of an expensive flight... Then again, if I bring a parent along, I don't have to pay a thing

You're right lol. I was thinking of the greenwood one that I had missed. If you head out to any of the three, let me know! I'll buy you and possibly the parent some breakfast

 

[RoscoeT]

The maneuver I'm referring to involves maintaining straight and level flight while slowly applying opposite aileron and rudder all the way to the stops then reversing to the opposite extreme. Do this back and forth in a smooth transition. You will also have to use the elevator to pull the nose up in order to maintain altitude as you compensate for the drag induced by the slip. The nose of the aircraft will carve a smiley face.

Yeah, not sure the great value in teaching primary students to do this. They are much better served by rolling the airplane back-and-forth with the ball in center (s-turns). This teaches realistic rudder use. Some people seem to consider this uncoordinated nose-on-point "dutch roll" exercise to be the next best thing to sliced bread. It's an exercise unto itself, sorta like drawing circles or squares on the horizon with the nose. I don't see the important lessons there. Nose-on-point "dutch rolls" have much more to do with precision aerobatics than primary flight training.

 

[wabower]

A long-time DPE in the KC area thinks it's a great drill and routinely demos it to pilots at the conclusion of (successful) rides. He says that most pilots who are exposed to the drill are surprised by the amount of rudder required to maintain nose-on-point as well as the amount of footwork and effort to make it happen.

He thinks it's the best drill to teach cross-control techniques and confidence because it's a level flight exercise with no other distractions other than using the control pressures necessary to fly a straight line while rocking the wings.

Yeah, not sure the great value in teaching primary students to do this. They are much better served by rolling the airplane back-and-forth with the ball in center (s-turns). This teaches realistic rudder use. Some people seem to consider this uncoordinated nose-on-point "dutch roll" exercise to be the next best thing to sliced bread. It's an exercise unto itself, sorta like drawing circles or squares on the horizon with the nose. I don't see the important lessons there. Nose-on-point "dutch rolls" have much more to do with precision aerobatics than primary flight training.

 

[denverpilot]

Not to mention, nose on point, and drawing squares on the horizon, are virtually the same skills learned when first learning to fly a glider on tow.

(Boxing the wake, and even just following the towplane at first is accomplished by nose on a point... You learn how to anticipate where all the moving pieces are going to go to by visualizing the path, later. At first it's just "follow his tail, go where he goes".)


Oh, for the OP...See? We told you it'd get easier.

Next, you'll find yourself trying to drive your car and steer it with your feet. I recommend a left turn first.

 

[Silvaire]

Yeah, not sure the great value in teaching primary students to do this. They are much better served by rolling the airplane back-and-forth with the ball in center (s-turns). This teaches realistic rudder use....

Yes but that's well covered in primary training - steep turns, s-turns and s-turns along a road (which is a ground reference maneuver) The dutch roll maneuver (or whatever you want to call it) takes you out of the role of just basically guiding the airplane and into a realm where the airplane doesn't want to go. It teaches coordination of uncoordinated flight if that makes any sense.

I just think it's a good exercise to get a feel of how the controls interact throughout their range. I don't think it's the best thing since sliced bread or that you should practice them all day long. I just meant to do a few and see if it helps the OP with his rudder skills.

 

[RoscoeT]

Not to mention, nose on point, and drawing squares on the horizon, are virtually the same skills learned when first learning to fly a glider on tow.

I have little glider experience, but I thought the objective during tow was to stay in position behind the glider, in coordinated flight. If you start skidding and slipping the glider all over the place, aren't you just causing drag and being a PIA for the tow plane?

Yes but that's well covered in primary training - steep turns, s-turns and s-turns along a road (which is a ground reference maneuver)

It's covered, just not practiced for very long. It's sorta like landing practice...the time spent during the actual flare and touchdown process is maybe one minute during an hour in the pattern? Rolling back-and-forth with the ball in the center gives a student extended practice using the rudder in a coordinated manner, and learning to "feel" coordination rather than staring at the ball. Doing some turns spaced apart doesn't provide much repetition or time spent actually practicing coordination.

The dutch roll maneuver (or whatever you want to call it) takes you out of the role of just basically guiding the airplane and into a realm where the airplane doesn't want to go. It teaches coordination of uncoordinated flight if that makes any sense.

Again, it's just a totally unrealistic manner of flying, and the lessons (and the point) may be lost on the student. Flying slips teaches x-controlled and uncoordinated flight plenty, and is actually done for a purpose - x-wind correction and altitude loss. I fail to see how "dutch rolls" are some great x-wind training tool. You know what's a great x-wind training tool? Flying the length of the runway with the plane in a slip, holding centerline and alignment. Rolling nose on a point seems more of a skill exercise unto itself. I don't have a problem with it, but it's made out to be way more valuable than it actually is...when there are much better ways to practice the ways in which uncoordinated flight is actually relevant. Again, you might as well draw circles or boxes in the sky. That takes skill, and I guess gains a feel for the airplane, but it's only an exercise unto itself. I don't see any great revelations to be made by the student here. It builds feel, so I'm all for it, but I sure wouldn't dwell on it. I'd much rather a pilot develop a feel for good coordinated flight without starting at the dang ball. Not many do that well.