Rotor to Fixed and first post

Warlock

Warlock

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Warlock
Hello and First Post

After a 10 year break from military aviation and 20 plus years of meeting my gates I have the desire to start flying Private Pilot Fixed Wing. I have a Commercial Pilot license issued in 1985 with Rotorcraft and Instrument ratings. I am doing this for fun and occasional travel and have no need for a career in Aviation. I have flow OH-58, UH-1's, AH-1, and spent 10 Years flying AH-64s. Growing up the family had a 177 but never bothered to document any flight training, but have some stick time. My local FBO seems to not know what to do....can someone tell me what I need (Other than a Medical) to get started. I am not a student pilot and the regs don't make sense...Thanks for the imput
 
Thank you for your service and welcome to POA.

I would contact the local FSDO and see if you can be "grandfathered" in. Pretty sure you know the pattern around the airport, and other nifty rules for safe aviating. :lol:

Again, welcome!
 
I don't have the stuff handy, but adding private privileges for a new category and class will not be a big deal. Whatever the FAR requires for aeronautical experience and instruction, you'll probably need it after your long layoff as well as learning to fly fixed-wing.

Ron or another active CFI will probably chime in soon, but if not, I'll look up the regs in the morning.
 
Hey first post! Welcome to POA. I think there's another thread where Ron (CFI) recently addressed the requirements for another OH-58 guy getting his fixedwing. He should be along shortly to clarify. I flew 60s for 12 yrs but I already had my fixedwing prior to going Army. I know you said its for pleasure but if you served after 9/11 the GI Bill will pay for it at a Part 141 school. Although, if you don't have a school close to home you might as well pay out of pocket for an add on.
 
Warlock said:
Hello and First Post

After a 10 year break from military aviation and 20 plus years of meeting my gates I have the desire to start flying Private Pilot Fixed Wing. I have a Commercial Pilot license issued in 1985 with Rotorcraft and Instrument ratings. I am doing this for fun and occasional travel and have no need for a career in Aviation. I have flow OH-58, UH-1's, AH-1, and spent 10 Years flying AH-64s. Growing up the family had a 177 but never bothered to document any flight training, but have some stick time. My local FBO seems to not know what to do....can someone tell me what I need (Other than a Medical) to get started. I am not a student pilot and the regs don't make sense...Thanks for the imput
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I issued several of these while at the FAA. In a nutshell you take your military records to the FSDO (make an appointment and tell them the reason for the visit). They will review your records and issue you a Commercial Rotorcraft-Helicopter certificate.

Then go to a FBO (or flight school) and do a fixed wing Private Pilot add on rating to your Commercial Rotorcraft-Helicopter.

Here is a good explanation from Shepard Air website. If I had more time this morning I could dig up some of my old files on my computer but I have to fly shortly. This will get you moving in the right direction. Any questions feel free to PM me.

http://www.sheppardair.com/ans15.htm

#15: I wanted to add a type rating/aircraft rating to my pilot certificate (or my new flight instructor certificate) at the FSDO, but was told that since I had no time in that aircraft in the preceding 12 months that I was not eligible to have it added. Is that correct?

No, that's not correct There is no longer any 12-month "look-back" limitation on adding ratings to pilot certificates based on military competency (there used to be, but it has been rescinded, and some people are just not aware that it was rescinded). Also, with the new Military Competency to Flight Instructor, there is no form of "look-back" limitation.., not even 30 years.
If you look at the OLD WORDING of 14 CFR 61.73 (b), prior to Oct 2009, it said:
(b) Military pilots on active flying status within the past 12 months A rated military pilot Or former military pilot who has been on active flying status within the 12 months before applying must:

(1)...
(2)...
(3) etc.

So there WAS a restriction. However, the new wording says:

(b) Military pilots and former military pilots in the U.S. Armed Forces. A person who qualifies as a military pilot or former military pilot in the U.S. Armed Forces may apply for a pilot certificate and ratings under paragraph (a) of this section if that person—

(1) Presents evidentiary documents described under paragraphs (h)(1), (2), and (3) of this section that show the person's status in the U.S. Armed Forces.

(2) Has passed the military competency aeronautical knowledge test on the appropriate parts of this chapter for commercial pilot privileges and limitations, air traffic and general operating rules, and accident reporting rules.

(3) Presents official U.S. military records that show compliance with one of the following requirements—

(i) Before the date of the application, passing an official U.S. military pilot and instrument proficiency check in a military aircraft of the kind of aircraft category, class, and type. if class or type of aircraft is applicable, for the ratings sought: or

(ii) Before the date of application, logging 10 hours of pilot time as a military pilot in a U.S. military aircraft in the kind of aircraft category, class, and type, if a class rating or type rating is applicable, for the aircraft rating sought. Notice, no more restriction.

In addition, the Federal Registry entry for the new 61.73 has three paragraphs that speak to this issue as follows:

This final rule deletes the Sec. 61.73(b) requirement that current and former pilots of the U.S. Armed Forces must be on active flying status within the past twelve months to qualify for a pilot certificate and rating under these special rules. Under our revision, U.S. military pilots and former U.S. military pilots may qualify for their civilian pilot certificate and ratings on the basis of their past qualifications as a U.S. military pilot, completion of the military competency aeronautical knowledge test, and accomplishment of a flight review under existing Sec. 61.57. This final rule adds a new Sec. 61.73(b)(2) to clarify that the aeronautical knowledge test that military pilots are required to take is the -military competency" aeronautical knowledge test. It also adds a new Sec. 61.73(b)(3) changing pilot status for qualifying for a pilot certificate and ratings under these special rules from -pilot in command" to pilot in the U.S. Armed Forces. The U.S. military's pilot qualification and flight time recording documents and procedures have changed since the initial establishment of Sec. 61.73. The U.S. Armed Forces no longer issues pilot in command orders to its graduates who complete its Undergraduate Pilot Training Course. PIC status occurs when military pilots report to their permanent duty assignment and complete additional unit checkouts. However, the FAA has determined that the end-of-course test for graduation from a current U.S. military Undergraduate Pilot Training Course is similar in scope and content as the PIC order was for military pilots when Sec. 61.73 was initially established.

We agree that former U.S. Armed Forces instructor pilots should be allowed to apply for flight instructor certificates and ratings. Therefore, we have revised Sec. 61.73(g) to include both current and former U.S. military instructor pilots or former and current U.S. military pilot examiners may apply for and be issued a flight instructor certificate. We have not restricted this provision to just former military instructor pilots and former military examiners who have been separated from the military within the preceding 12 calendar months, because we have decided to extend this to all current and former U.S. military instructor pilots and military pilot examiners.

So, bottom line, there are no more 12-month look-back restrictions for any form of Military Competency issued certificate.


 
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I believe the OP already HAS the commercial cert, so he just needs the add-on, no need for a FSDO visit to do the military competency thing.

I'll check in the morning and if Ron or someone else hasn't weighed in with the requirements, I'll dig out part 61 and find them.
 
Unfortunatly no on the GI bill due to my entry date..its okay I am blessed with sucess, so its not an issue. What is the "grandfathering"? Also I took a practice PPL test yesterday and missed one...did not know what a P factor was...As a Rotor Wing Test Pilot it's observed in some tail rotors but frankly did not know what it was called in a fixed wing until now. I would rather not go through the whole course of instruction for a PPL if not necessary.

I have a FAA Commercial License since 1985 Helicopter/Instrument Ratings...
 
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Question - is it possible for him to add private privileges in FW airplane (which should reduce the amount of experience required)? Or must he add the category/class rating at the commercial level?
 
TMetzinger said:
Question - is it possible for him to add private privileges in FW airplane (which should reduce the amount of experience required)?
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I don't see why not. The PP-A PTS appears to allow for this by the use of the term "at the private level" rather than "on a Private Pilot certificate" in discussing the Additional Rating Task Table:

An applicant, who holds at least a private pilot certificate seeking an
additional airplane category rating and/or class rating at the private
pilot level, shall be evaluated in the Areas of Operation and Tasks
listed in the Additional Rating Task Table. At the discretion of the
examiner, an evaluation of the applicant’s competence in the
remaining Areas of Operation and Tasks may be conducted.

If the applicant holds two or more category or class ratings at least
at the private level, and the ratings table indicates differing required
Tasks, the “least restrictive” entry applies. For example, if “ALL” and
“NONE” are indicated for one Area of Operation, the “NONE” entry​
applies. If “B” and “B, C” are indicated, the “B” entry applies.
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So let's figure out just what that would entail for an additional category at the PP level rather than just an additional class.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least--

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane;
(2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes--
(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;
(4) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and
(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least--
(i) 5 hours of solo cross-country time;
(ii) One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and (iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
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The 20 hours of flight training with an instructor need not all be in a single-engine airplane, but the 10 solo hours must. While in theory there can be overlap between the dual XC, night, instrument, and test prep, it's not reasonable to expect a whole lot less than 10-15 hours of dual before the pilot is ready for the ride. This compares to my previous estimate about 25 hours of dual and 50 hours of solo to qualify for the additional rating at the CP level. Since the OP says s/he's "doing this for fun and occasional travel and have no need for a career in Aviation," the Private level option seems a good alternative.

Or must he add the category/class rating at the commercial level?
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I know of no regulation saying that.
 
TMetzinger said:
Question - is it possible for him to add private privileges in FW airplane (which should reduce the amount of experience required)? Or must he add the category/class rating at the commercial level?
Click to expand...

Yes. Certificate will read: Commercial pilot rotorcraft helicopter.
Private priveleges airplane single engine land.

As long as one category is commercial then you are a commercial pilot but you can add on other categories as private, usuallly the little added work to add on commercial and human nature have most adding categories as commercial. As a bonus I don't believe the op needs to take the pp written.
 
ClimbnSink said:
As long as one category is commercial then you are a commercial pilot but you can add on other categories as private, usuallly the little added work to add on commercial and human nature have most adding categories as commercial.
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To me, getting 50 hours of airplane solo versus 10 hours of airplane solo seems more than a "little added work," but YMMV.

As a bonus I don't believe the op needs to take the pp written.
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That is correct.
(b) Additional aircraft category rating. A person who applies to add a category rating to a pilot certificate:
...
(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, weight-shift-control aircraft, powered parachute, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.
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Since the OP already holds rotorcraft privileges at the private level (and then some), the written is not required.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't see why not. The PP-A PTS appears to allow for this by the use of the term "at the private level" rather than "on a Private Pilot certificate" in discussing the Additional Rating Task Table:

So let's figure out just what that would entail for an additional category at the PP level rather than just an additional class.
The 20 hours of flight training with an instructor need not all be in a single-engine airplane, but the 10 solo hours must. While in theory there can be overlap between the dual XC, night, instrument, and test prep, it's not reasonable to expect a whole lot less than 10-15 hours of dual before the pilot is ready for the ride. This compares to my previous estimate about 25 hours of dual and 50 hours of solo to qualify for the additional rating at the CP level. Since the OP says s/he's "doing this for fun and occasional travel and have no need for a career in Aviation," the Private level option seems a good alternative.

I know of no regulation saying that.
Click to expand...

To the OP:

I'm a current 64D/E pilot and am working on my PPL for fixed wing at this time. What Ron posted above is pretty realistic. I'm expecting about 22 hours of fixed wing time before I check out with probably about 12 being dual time. Most of the guys I work with that have done it have ended with 22-25 hours give or take when they checked out for PPL.

It took me about 2 hours and I had landing/taking off down pretty well(still plenty of room to improve obviously).

I can't see why I wouldn't solo by 6 hours, but that is a very individual based thing.

I know one guy that did it right at 21 hours(PPL) and another that took closer to 30.

Basically read part 61 for the PPL requirements and you only have to do the items that say "in a single-engine airplane."
 
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That seems in line with what my expectations were 10-15 hours duel and solo time to meet any other requirements. I must say thanks to this board for such a wealth of information.
 
redlineshifts said:
It took me about 2 hours and I had landing/taking off down pretty well(still plenty of room to improve obviously).

I can't see why I wouldn't solo by 6 hours, but that is a very individual based thing.
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There is a lot more we instructors have to see than just takeoffs and landings before we can responsibly sign that 61.31(d)(2) endorsement, and it takes a lot more than 2 hours to see it all. The reg says:
(2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor.
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To my thinking, I'm not turning you loose until I've covered all the following airplane solo requirements from the Student Pilot solo reg 61.87:
(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.
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I don't think someone with no prior airplane experience can achieve satisfactory performance in all 15 items in 6 hours of flight training, but then I've only given about 3000 hours of airplane flight training. Or do you think there are some of those one could skip?
 
That stuff is easy for helicopter pilots.
 
ClimbnSink said:
That stuff is easy for helicopter pilots.
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Let me know the next time you find a helicopter-only pilot who's done stalls in flight and slips to a landing. Not to mention the time it takes to get them to apply right pedal when applying power.
 
Ron Levy said:
Let me know the next time you find a helicopter-only pilot who's done stalls in flight and slips to a landing..
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Stalls in flight. A settling with power demonstration is essentially the same thing, recovery is forward cyclic and fly out of it, so as a helicopter pilot I wouldn't think the concept is foreign.

Also doing crosswind approaches in a helicopter, especially run on landings in a crosswind would help prepare a helo pilot to transition to fixed wing.



Ron Levy said:
Not to mention the time it takes to get them to apply right pedal when applying power.
Click to expand...

You don't give much credit to helicopter pilots. I've flown US helicopters (left pedal input on power) and European helicopters (right pedal input) and never had a problem from one to the other and most helicopter pilots transition easily. Helicopter pilots are trained to recognize and make control adjustments and are usually more keen to making these inputs as oppose to the fixed wing guys crossing over to helicopter.

In a helicopter moving one control requires adjusting the other 3 (cyclic, collective,pedal, power) Most fixed wing pilots can get away with little is no inputs, can't do it in a helicopter.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Stalls in flight. A settling with power demonstration is essentially the same thing, recovery is forward cyclic and fly out of it, so as a helicopter pilot I wouldn't think the concept is foreign.

Also doing crosswind approaches in a helicopter, especially run on landings in a crosswind would help prepare a helo pilot to transition to fixed wing.
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And you accuse me of "cherry-picking"? :rolleyes:

You don't give much credit to helicopter pilots.
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I've trained several for fixed-wing, and they've all had to work to get the "right rudder for torque" part right. Of course, they were all US Army folks, so they never learned anything but "left pedal for power." YMMV, but the Law of Primacy ain't easy to break. Perhaps you can tell us how many helicopter-only pilots you signed off for solo in airplanes with 6 hours or less training.
 
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Ron Levy said:
And you accuse me of "cherry-picking"? :rolleyes:

I've trained several for fixed-wing, and they've all had to work to get the "right rudder for torque" part right. Of course, they were all US Army folks, so they never learned anything but "left pedal for power." YMMV, but the Law of Primacy ain't easy to break. Perhaps you can tell us how many helicopter-only pilots you signed off for solo in airplanes with 6 hours or less training.
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Let's see, since you like posting your resume here every few days for all to see :rolleyes2:, so let me put it this way:

After a couple of thousand hours flying, instructing and issuing ratings in helicopters I'd say your observations about lacking quality in helicopter only pilots leave a lot to be desired. :rolleyes:

A control input is a control input, right or left. Some helicopters require more, some less. Also depends upon lots of other factors as well. I find it hard to believe a helicopter pilot having difficulty in recognizing yaw and not knowing what input to make. :rolleyes2:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Let's see, since you like posting your resume here every few days for all to see :rolleyes2:, so let me put it this way:

After a couple of thousand hours flying, instructing and issuing ratings in helicopters I'd say your observations about lacking quality in helicopter only pilots leave a lot to be desired. :rolleyes:

A control input is a control input, right or left. Some helicopters require more, some less. Also depends upon lots of other factors as well. I find it hard to believe a helicopter pilot having difficulty in recognizing yaw and not knowing what input to make. :rolleyes2:
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I really don't care how many hours you've instructed in helicopters -- that's not relevant to the question at hand. Since you don't seem able to answer the question about your experience training helicopter pilots for solo in airplanes, we can all move along.
 
Ron Levy said:
I really don't care how many hours you've instructed in helicopters -- that's not relevant to the question at hand.
Click to expand...

As is your constant resume posting here............:rolleyes2:


Ron Levy said:
Since you don't seem able to answer the question about your experience training helicopter pilots for solo in airplanes, we can all move along.
Click to expand...

Just looked at my log, the number was 4. And I don't recall any control issues as they were quite skilled pilots.

Ron Levy said:
we can all move along.
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Agreed. Go get some helicopter experience someday, it will teach you a lot. :D
 
Ummmm..... wouldn't 61.63(c) take precedent here ?

specifically part 3 ?

(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought; unless, the person only holds a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating, then that person must receive the specified training time requirements and possess the appropriate aeronautical experience.

?????

As a rotorcraft guy who done some add-on work, I find the fixed wing guys to be sadly uninformed sometimes....
 
jaybee said:
Ummmm..... wouldn't 61.63(c) take precedent here ?

specifically part 3 ?

(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought; unless, the person only holds a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating, then that person must receive the specified training time requirements and possess the appropriate aeronautical experience.

?????

As a rotorcraft guy who done some add-on work, I find the fixed wing guys to be sadly uninformed sometimes....
Click to expand...

What's being discussed is going to a different category, not a different class.

If the OP was getting a Rotorcraft-gyrocopter rating that would apply.
 
Ron Levy said:
(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.

I don't think someone with no prior airplane experience can achieve satisfactory performance in all 15 items in 6 hours of flight training, but then I've only given about 3000 hours of airplane flight training. Or do you think there are some of those one could skip?
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I'm at 4.3 hours at the moment, the only maneuvers in that list we have not completed yet are the ground reference maneuvers and go arounds. It took 4 patterns for me to get take offs and landings down, and he hasn't touched the controls for any maneuvers since. I'm not sure what all of the simulated emergencies need to be completed, but I feel like I understand and have done engine failures without issue.
My steep turns were passable, not as good as I would like them, but within standard.

I have no idea if that is the norm or not. I've done 3 dead stick landings now without issue. Slipping and crabbing for crosswind landings are VERY intuitive for me personally. The 6 hour comment was made in passing, if I'm signed off by then awesome, if not no big deal. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I am signed off by then though.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Let me know the next time you find a helicopter-only pilot who's done stalls in flight and slips to a landing. Not to mention the time it takes to get them to apply right pedal when applying power.
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That's why God created unrestricted Naval Aviators!:D
 
Stalls in flight are very similar to a single engine failure while below single engine airspeed(multi engine). You immediately stop flying and start falling. Lower the nose with max power applied until you get above single engine airspeed.

Also when coming in too fast and too high on an approach in a helicopter you can apply a lot of left pedal to kick the aircraft sideways out of trim and you very quickly dump your extra airspeed and altitude. Sounds pretty familiar huh?

Sent from my SPH-M950 using Tapatalk 2
 
Retreating Blade Stall and Settling with power are both stalled conditions in a rotor wing and as one of the last graduates of the Army's Air to Air School located in Germany in the 80"s I can assure you a stall in a light fixed wing is a cake walk...
 
redlineshifts said:
Stalls in flight are very similar to a single engine failure while below single engine airspeed(multi engine). You immediately stop flying and start falling. Lower the nose with max power applied until you get above single engine airspeed.

Also when coming in too fast and too high on an approach in a helicopter you can apply a lot of left pedal to kick the aircraft sideways out of trim and you very quickly dump your extra airspeed and altitude. Sounds pretty familiar huh?

Sent from my SPH-M950 using Tapatalk 2
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Keep the speed up. Airplanes do funky things when stalled cross controlled or with yaw present.
 
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